Light aircraft down in Dundee
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I have flown your airspace scores of times and never met an ATC guy like you nor want to.
Do you really expect Fisbang and his colleagues to check you have the necessary privilidges every time you ask for a service ? Not to mention checking that the conditions in your locality really are VMC like you claim ?
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Do you really expect Fisbang and his colleagues to check you have the necessary privilidges every time you ask for a service ?
When the pilot cannot hold a FL, cannot set a FL, goes up and down like a Yo Yo, doesnt even know RT and descends clean through a cleared level and is flying an aircraft, a microlight at those levels then a resounding YES!
In my thousands of hours flying all over the world I have heard many situations where ATC have been intuitive and intervened if that doesnt happen in Scotland then God help us.
Pace
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Pace I think you are being a tad unfair mate.
How many times do we hear complaints on here of controllers sealing off airspace.
Unfortunately this will mean that they will quite likely not be so helpful next time someone wants a transit.
Hell its the sort of thing I would do in a none airways IFR equiped single if I had a stonking tailwind.
And if this spat continues I can see a very useful thread being locked by the moderators.
How many times do we hear complaints on here of controllers sealing off airspace.
Unfortunately this will mean that they will quite likely not be so helpful next time someone wants a transit.
Hell its the sort of thing I would do in a none airways IFR equiped single if I had a stonking tailwind.
And if this spat continues I can see a very useful thread being locked by the moderators.
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Mad Jock
Ok maybe I went over the top with fisbangwolop being rude and insulting to me. But we are NOT talking about a competant pilot requesting a clearance.
We are talking about a pilot who has generated over 20,000 hits on this sight, nearly killed himself and plainly should not have been where he was or qualified to be there.
In my time I have witnessed ATC being very intuitive. they have questioned whether the pilot was OK, They have questioned his qualifications,They have questioned his abilities. Not once but scores of times.
To be insulted for saying fact and the truth??? I dont care who the poster is.
Pace
Ok maybe I went over the top with fisbangwolop being rude and insulting to me. But we are NOT talking about a competant pilot requesting a clearance.
We are talking about a pilot who has generated over 20,000 hits on this sight, nearly killed himself and plainly should not have been where he was or qualified to be there.
In my time I have witnessed ATC being very intuitive. they have questioned whether the pilot was OK, They have questioned his qualifications,They have questioned his abilities. Not once but scores of times.
To be insulted for saying fact and the truth??? I dont care who the poster is.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 20th Aug 2009 at 23:18.
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Pace
You are welcome to your opinion. But as 140K says you are in a minority of one, fisbang & his colleagues provide us with an excellent service, far beyond that which is now required, & we can do without the licence slinging. I've met them & they are the real thing.
You are welcome to your opinion. But as 140K says you are in a minority of one, fisbang & his colleagues provide us with an excellent service, far beyond that which is now required, & we can do without the licence slinging. I've met them & they are the real thing.
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fisbang & his colleagues provide us with an excellent service
Sorry but Something went wrong in this situation and I cannot change that view given the reports to date.
You are welcome to your opinion. But as 140K says you are in a minority of one
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 20th Aug 2009 at 23:47.
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We don't know how it all kicked off.
His intial calls could have sounded "by the book" and then once cleared inside and inside airspace only then did it transpire that he was a fud. I don't know how often a VFR/ unfiled IFR transit of that airspace occurs. I am sure fisbang can tell us.
Then the controller only had 2 choices try and turn him round or shepard him through all while shoving aircraft towards the tartan hold as fast as Manchester chucks them at her. You can be sure she won't do it again
There might very well be debrief points for the lady concerned and I am sure it will be become a story that trainers will scare trainees on that sector for years with.
So another outcome of this whole incident is that class D which in my opnion was being operated in the spirit of class D ie if there was space and workloaded allowed you got access to it. Now quite understandably, perfectly competent pilots will be refused access in case they do a "vince"
His intial calls could have sounded "by the book" and then once cleared inside and inside airspace only then did it transpire that he was a fud. I don't know how often a VFR/ unfiled IFR transit of that airspace occurs. I am sure fisbang can tell us.
Then the controller only had 2 choices try and turn him round or shepard him through all while shoving aircraft towards the tartan hold as fast as Manchester chucks them at her. You can be sure she won't do it again
There might very well be debrief points for the lady concerned and I am sure it will be become a story that trainers will scare trainees on that sector for years with.
So another outcome of this whole incident is that class D which in my opnion was being operated in the spirit of class D ie if there was space and workloaded allowed you got access to it. Now quite understandably, perfectly competent pilots will be refused access in case they do a "vince"
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Pace
I don't know the procedure when plonkers meander through CAS but perhaps it would be a better use of rescources to redirect traffic that is able & willing to respond & act, rather than try to educate the one that is not, probably making his situation worse in the process.
I don't know the procedure when plonkers meander through CAS but perhaps it would be a better use of rescources to redirect traffic that is able & willing to respond & act, rather than try to educate the one that is not, probably making his situation worse in the process.
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Pace, you ARE in a minority of one. I have also flown through that airspace more times than I care to count. It is quite clear that ATC was a tad busy that day. They are NOT required to check whether a pilot is feeling well, is missing his teddybear, to ask him whether he knows what a flight level is (it's in the syllabus so he bl00dy well SHOULD know).
IF the posts on here are genuinely from Biggles, then the guy has no business ever getting in an aircraft again. Were I in Enforcement Branch of the Campaign, I would recommend pulling his licence (based on what has been posted here). He might still save his skin if he tells them it wasn't him posting here, he wouldn't say anything like that, he made several very silly mistakes during the flight in a state of panic and confusion, and he's very, very sorry and he most certainly will never do anything like that ever again. But that's about his only hope.
PS ATPL/FI, Flight Safety Officer and former AFISO.
IF the posts on here are genuinely from Biggles, then the guy has no business ever getting in an aircraft again. Were I in Enforcement Branch of the Campaign, I would recommend pulling his licence (based on what has been posted here). He might still save his skin if he tells them it wasn't him posting here, he wouldn't say anything like that, he made several very silly mistakes during the flight in a state of panic and confusion, and he's very, very sorry and he most certainly will never do anything like that ever again. But that's about his only hope.
PS ATPL/FI, Flight Safety Officer and former AFISO.
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what ATC ? Then explain? wasnt anyone alerted by the fact that the guy didnt know what a FL was? didnt you realise that something wasnt right? Its not rocket science. or were you too busy drinking tea and reading mags? You have a duty of care to those up there. The good ATC are far more intuitive than your purile response indicates
Pace
Pace
In defence of the ATC unit involved, I doubt that they would have had any clue as to the limitations of the type of aircraft involved in this incident or the limitations of the pilot due to the type of licence he holds.
I doubt that Vince declared that he was flying a microlight, as there was no need to, and I suspect that Vince is might be of those who prefers not to admit to his aircraft being a microlight, anyway. He was apparently transponder equipped (relatively unusual for a microlight) and flying at a cruise speed and height commensurate with that of many other GA types. There would have been few outward clues to the controller of the class of aircraft they were dealing with.
It would be quite reasonable for the controller to assume that the pilot should know the limitations of his aircraft and licence type and just do his/her best to maintain safety in that bit of airspace, once it was clear that there was a potential problem. This seems to be just what was done, albeit with some inconvenience to other users.
I very much doubt that any legal action will be taken, as the outcome wasn't too serious, even though it had the potential to be. The rescue seems to have been fairly straightforward, damage to third party property seems modest and proving whatever the Scottish equivalent is of "reckless endangerment" would be fairly difficult (and expensive). My guess is that the AAIB report will be brief and inconclusive, Vince will whitewash the media and the true underlying reasons for this accident will be submerged beneath a layer of hype, leading to the loss of a valuable set of lessons learned.
VP
I doubt that Vince declared that he was flying a microlight, as there was no need to, and I suspect that Vince is might be of those who prefers not to admit to his aircraft being a microlight, anyway. He was apparently transponder equipped (relatively unusual for a microlight) and flying at a cruise speed and height commensurate with that of many other GA types. There would have been few outward clues to the controller of the class of aircraft they were dealing with.
It would be quite reasonable for the controller to assume that the pilot should know the limitations of his aircraft and licence type and just do his/her best to maintain safety in that bit of airspace, once it was clear that there was a potential problem. This seems to be just what was done, albeit with some inconvenience to other users.
I very much doubt that any legal action will be taken, as the outcome wasn't too serious, even though it had the potential to be. The rescue seems to have been fairly straightforward, damage to third party property seems modest and proving whatever the Scottish equivalent is of "reckless endangerment" would be fairly difficult (and expensive). My guess is that the AAIB report will be brief and inconclusive, Vince will whitewash the media and the true underlying reasons for this accident will be submerged beneath a layer of hype, leading to the loss of a valuable set of lessons learned.
VP
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PACE good morning, thats me heading off to do another day on the sector as you say drinking tea and readings mags....its a shame your muppet lioke comments have ruined what was a good thread untill you came along....as for ATC reacting to emergency situations there is a certain PA28 driver that was very greatfull for my services on Easter Sunday.....Until you get your facts correct how can you come on this BB and spout off like a demented budgie......
Things got heated basically because you were personally rude to me when I made what I thought was a valid point questioning the ATC part in the Vince scenario.
Firstly I have flown to most destinations in Scotland and ATC are brilliant hence my reason for asking why ATC had not been alerted to something being wrong as from what was printed here there were multiple mistakes made by the Vince over quite a distance.
I am sure it would be very interesting to hear the ATC side how relaxed Vinces Voice was, the recordings etc.
Until you get your facts correct how can you come on this BB
Anyway my apologies if things got heated but you were personally rude to me over what I though was a valid question so I blew my top off at you. It was late at night which also didnt help
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 21st Aug 2009 at 08:26.
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Can i change the subject,
got this text mesg from someone in the know
no RT Licence
no medical
no check flight after long illness
inability to listen
no planning before take off
no CURRENT maps
no fuel planning
= BIGGLES
got this text mesg from someone in the know
no RT Licence
no medical
no check flight after long illness
inability to listen
no planning before take off
no CURRENT maps
no fuel planning
= BIGGLES
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I hope to hell this aircraft was 100% his if that last post is correct.
No medical = big poo hits the fan
I feel really sorry for the others if he was a group member.
I have had a poke around about this type and its one seriously nice bit of kit.
Vne of 150knts
20lts of mogas an hour at 120-130knts
nice avionics
Fat tall bastard fit of cockpit.
40knts stall speed
STOL
Under a 100k with all the extras.
PS its good to see you two have kissed and made up.
No medical = big poo hits the fan
I feel really sorry for the others if he was a group member.
I have had a poke around about this type and its one seriously nice bit of kit.
Vne of 150knts
20lts of mogas an hour at 120-130knts
nice avionics
Fat tall bastard fit of cockpit.
40knts stall speed
STOL
Under a 100k with all the extras.
PS its good to see you two have kissed and made up.
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no RT Licence
no medical
no check flight after long illness
inability to listen
no planning before take off
no CURRENT maps
no fuel planning
no medical
no check flight after long illness
inability to listen
no planning before take off
no CURRENT maps
no fuel planning
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Gosh don't read the thread for a day and it's handbags at 10 paces!
I was waiting for the almost inevitable 'microlight' and 'NPPL' attack and of course it came!
The aircraft type is pretty irrelevent because the CT does not look like one and certainly out performs the majority of two seat 'conventional' GA aircraft.
I'm sure that as the situation developed, ATC became very clear that if they did not expedite Biggles route onwards he would overload and become very unpredicatable.
From many conversations I have heard you can often see that point being reached - ATC decide that 'educating' 'shepherding' 'clarifying' whatever is not going to work and so giving a clearance and moving everything out of the way in the sensible thing. The last time I heard it happen it was two foreign military jets, with biggles at least he was slower so it was easier!
I shudder to think what the amazing shrinking GASIL will publish - doubtless more condesending rubbish, then of course we'll have some 'Reggie Bender' prognostigations from GASCO. I feel the hatred for Biggle building.
But to be blunt there really is nothing for the vast majority of PPLs to learn from this - fly with enough fuel? Well who would have thought. Don't land in a tree? Don't talk to the media? Try not to be a prat?
I was waiting for the almost inevitable 'microlight' and 'NPPL' attack and of course it came!
The aircraft type is pretty irrelevent because the CT does not look like one and certainly out performs the majority of two seat 'conventional' GA aircraft.
I'm sure that as the situation developed, ATC became very clear that if they did not expedite Biggles route onwards he would overload and become very unpredicatable.
From many conversations I have heard you can often see that point being reached - ATC decide that 'educating' 'shepherding' 'clarifying' whatever is not going to work and so giving a clearance and moving everything out of the way in the sensible thing. The last time I heard it happen it was two foreign military jets, with biggles at least he was slower so it was easier!
I shudder to think what the amazing shrinking GASIL will publish - doubtless more condesending rubbish, then of course we'll have some 'Reggie Bender' prognostigations from GASCO. I feel the hatred for Biggle building.
But to be blunt there really is nothing for the vast majority of PPLs to learn from this - fly with enough fuel? Well who would have thought. Don't land in a tree? Don't talk to the media? Try not to be a prat?
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PACE...
That was your response to me inviting you to come and see the operation here at Scottish Centre....and you have the cheek to say I have been rude to you!
If you have been angered by my response to you I will kiss and make up if that makes you happy
I got rather upset I must admit when you intimated that the blame may fall at the feet of Scottish ATC when infact the controller in question should have been given a good show award!!!
But one thing for sure the response from others that use the service's we provided shows in general we are doing a pretty dam good job..
Finally I must thank you for getting me a nice chocky biscuit sent to my sector this morning from AIRPOLICE.....I wonder if the fact there were two fingers in the package was a cryptic clue!!!
Take care and safe flying next time you manage to get into the air..
I have flown your airspace scores of times and never met an ATC guy like you nor want to.
If you have been angered by my response to you I will kiss and make up if that makes you happy
I got rather upset I must admit when you intimated that the blame may fall at the feet of Scottish ATC when infact the controller in question should have been given a good show award!!!
But one thing for sure the response from others that use the service's we provided shows in general we are doing a pretty dam good job..
Finally I must thank you for getting me a nice chocky biscuit sent to my sector this morning from AIRPOLICE.....I wonder if the fact there were two fingers in the package was a cryptic clue!!!
Take care and safe flying next time you manage to get into the air..
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I have had a poke around about this type and its one seriously nice bit of kit.
I have drooled over this aircraft too Shame its so expensive
If no RT licence and if true then that makes the quality of his RT chat enroute even more interesting.
Pace
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fishbangwallop.
just had to register and post after reading some of the posts doubting Scottish . I was the "PA28" drive that Easter Sunday when the engine chewed a valve. From my perspective I could not have asked for anymore assistance than was given - It was only when I got down safely that I realised how much was being done in the background for me - luckily it was not needed - calling a Mayday early on was to my way of thinking the only sensible way to proceed.Training and experience kicking in no doubt. All I had to do was nurse the engine back to Cumbernauld. Pity Vince didn't have the where with all to declare a PAN situation. The outcome could have been very different. I don't belive ATC should be second guessing any pilots intentions. It's a two way exchange
Thanks again and I owe you big time.
just had to register and post after reading some of the posts doubting Scottish . I was the "PA28" drive that Easter Sunday when the engine chewed a valve. From my perspective I could not have asked for anymore assistance than was given - It was only when I got down safely that I realised how much was being done in the background for me - luckily it was not needed - calling a Mayday early on was to my way of thinking the only sensible way to proceed.Training and experience kicking in no doubt. All I had to do was nurse the engine back to Cumbernauld. Pity Vince didn't have the where with all to declare a PAN situation. The outcome could have been very different. I don't belive ATC should be second guessing any pilots intentions. It's a two way exchange
Thanks again and I owe you big time.