RE: Spinning on the PPL course
RE: Spinning on the PPL course
Join Date: Mar 2009
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I did spinning on an advanced handling course with Highlands Flying School, though I had to call it short as I was worried my breakfast would come up! Quite an experience I can tell you!
I survived but sadly the Flying School did not.
I survived but sadly the Flying School did not.
Anyone know when was Spinning removed from the JAA PPL syllabus?
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I've yet to find any statistics to prove this, can anyone supply any?
Join Date: Jan 2002
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I got my licence in '85 and it was a topic of conversation at the time. It was either about to be or had just been removed.
As for statistics? I doubt they really exist (if they do from that period they will not be interweb net accessible anyhow).
There were a few incidents about that time mainly military in Bulldogs and at least one civil Chipmunk which I believe the people did not get out of. There were also a number of C150 stall / spin incidents (subject to a thread last year on the numbers?). That lead to the switch to 'awareness' rather than 'proper' spins.
Most of the younger instructors were keen on it being removed, the old g*ts not so happy - nothing much changes!
As for statistics? I doubt they really exist (if they do from that period they will not be interweb net accessible anyhow).
There were a few incidents about that time mainly military in Bulldogs and at least one civil Chipmunk which I believe the people did not get out of. There were also a number of C150 stall / spin incidents (subject to a thread last year on the numbers?). That lead to the switch to 'awareness' rather than 'proper' spins.
Most of the younger instructors were keen on it being removed, the old g*ts not so happy - nothing much changes!
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Spinning
Hi Guys,
My view is that if one is only to be taught spin avoidance, then at the very least every student should experience a fully developed spin, if only just once.
Otherwise how do you know what it is you are learning to avoid?
I dread a time when there will be instructors who have never experienced a spin teaching students to avoid the spin when neither has the foggiest idea what a spin is like, both are terrified of it, and neither would not know how to get out of the spin should spin avoidance training accidentally result in the real McCoy.
Broomstick.
My view is that if one is only to be taught spin avoidance, then at the very least every student should experience a fully developed spin, if only just once.
Otherwise how do you know what it is you are learning to avoid?
I dread a time when there will be instructors who have never experienced a spin teaching students to avoid the spin when neither has the foggiest idea what a spin is like, both are terrified of it, and neither would not know how to get out of the spin should spin avoidance training accidentally result in the real McCoy.
Broomstick.
Join Date: Sep 2003
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One could argue that if you are taught spin avoidance and fly the aircraft on the correct side of the envelope you will never need to see a spin as a result.
When I learnt to fly we had to demonstrate spinning and I had to spin for my Instructors course. I see no benefit in teaching spinning at basic level that is better than spin awareness.
If people want to learn to spin then they should do it post PPL with guys who are experts in the field at places like Ultimate High who do an amazing upset recovery course.
When I learnt to fly we had to demonstrate spinning and I had to spin for my Instructors course. I see no benefit in teaching spinning at basic level that is better than spin awareness.
If people want to learn to spin then they should do it post PPL with guys who are experts in the field at places like Ultimate High who do an amazing upset recovery course.
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In '88 it had been recently removed from the syllabus but I chose to take recovery training anyway. Otherwise it would have remained a 'demon' lurking in my mind.
DO.
DO.
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I like spinning but question the validity for a student PPL. About the only time a virgin PPL will get an aircraft in a spin is in the base-final turn scenario. In all reality, if the pilot has failed to recognise all the previous warnings of impending stall/spin, it is extremely unlikely that they will recover from a spin that started at about 500ft agl. I much prefer hammering home how pilots can recognise slow flight, high AOA etc.
That said, if a student asks me to demonstrate one, I will.
That said, if a student asks me to demonstrate one, I will.
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spins from turns
I had done a lot of intentional spins in gliders before taking up power. My instruction was against the Australian syllabus in the 80's (I learnt in Papua New Guinea). I then converted this to a UK licence on return to the UK.
Spins were then still requried for the UK licence. These were entered by stalling and then kicking in rudder - not something you'd naturally do in a Cessna 152 so a bit artificial. My spin recovery training in PNG was by entering a spin from stalling in a turn - that was also in a C152. The sudden flip into a spin in the opposite direction of the turn was unforgettable and a vivid demonstration of how the the streched final turn can kill. It's something I won't forget so I'm sure it makes me safer.
Spins were then still requried for the UK licence. These were entered by stalling and then kicking in rudder - not something you'd naturally do in a Cessna 152 so a bit artificial. My spin recovery training in PNG was by entering a spin from stalling in a turn - that was also in a C152. The sudden flip into a spin in the opposite direction of the turn was unforgettable and a vivid demonstration of how the the streched final turn can kill. It's something I won't forget so I'm sure it makes me safer.
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Cows get bigger,
A comparison is learning to drive. People are taught to drive in normal conditions but are not taught to handle a car. All is fine until one day they get into a skid and carreer off the road out of control.
In the driving course I would add skid pan training so that drivers can be comfortable with understeer oversteer drifts locked brakes etc.
In the same way in flying a pilot needs to be comfortable with handling an aircraft in all its guises.
Not just spinning but stalls in all configurations and fully developed, spiral dives (which can be a lot more uncomfortable than spinning) Vne dives etc etc etc.
In that way the pilot has to be better and more confident in handling his aircraft and knowing what it can do than someone who has never experienced the real deal.
Pace
A comparison is learning to drive. People are taught to drive in normal conditions but are not taught to handle a car. All is fine until one day they get into a skid and carreer off the road out of control.
In the driving course I would add skid pan training so that drivers can be comfortable with understeer oversteer drifts locked brakes etc.
In the same way in flying a pilot needs to be comfortable with handling an aircraft in all its guises.
Not just spinning but stalls in all configurations and fully developed, spiral dives (which can be a lot more uncomfortable than spinning) Vne dives etc etc etc.
In that way the pilot has to be better and more confident in handling his aircraft and knowing what it can do than someone who has never experienced the real deal.
Pace
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Pace, I don't disagree. My point is that the timing of such training has to be right. I recollect maybe two exercises of stall/spin when I did my PPL in the early 80s. We now do far more slow speed awareness training and certainly provide more comprehensive training for stalls. Personally, I think the current syllabus provides a better overall grounding (in most areas). Is it good enough? I don't know.
It would be interesting to see whether the statistics back up the change in policy. After all they should be able to provide a 20 year snapshot.
It would be interesting to see whether the statistics back up the change in policy. After all they should be able to provide a 20 year snapshot.
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I can relate to Rusty sparrows post. I learnt first time around in mid 70's and did some time with a NZ seaman who instructed between voyages. He had me descending and turning and kept pushing me turn tighter when all of a sudden over she went the other way and into a nice spin. Very powerful learning moment, especially as he hadn't warned me what we were about. Great character who once on PFL said right mags off keys out the window. Intended to imply concentrate on landing from that point. However he reached across my knees to the keys and I saw a flicker of silver being thrown out the window. Turned out to be silver paper but really focused me at the time until I realised the engine was still running.What a larf.
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Did my PPL in 2005 and I was taught to recover from spins along with 2 hours of how to avoid them in the first place.
To be honest I think it is a valuable exercise under the appropriate supervision and conditions. I has stuck in my mind and I will never forget that lesson as both the actions to prevent and recover from a spin and as a great days flying.
I always suggest to people that are training now to take a flight with an aerobatic instructor for spin training as it could save your life.
Nick
To be honest I think it is a valuable exercise under the appropriate supervision and conditions. I has stuck in my mind and I will never forget that lesson as both the actions to prevent and recover from a spin and as a great days flying.
I always suggest to people that are training now to take a flight with an aerobatic instructor for spin training as it could save your life.
Nick
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I was in the air squadron that operated one of the Bulldogs that had a spinning mishap. The student got out but the QFI didn't. The wreckage was in the back of the hangar until the AIB came and took it away. Gave us the willies because we did full spins at least once a month.
All students should experience a full spin and I think FI's should be able to teach thus, however not every school operates a suitable aircraft. Recently I flew on an nav-ex with a student to Kemble. He then did the excellent Stall/Spin package with 'Ultimate High' and we then did another nav ex back home. It made an excellent day out but the student's performance was grossly affected on the return leg.
All students should experience a full spin and I think FI's should be able to teach thus, however not every school operates a suitable aircraft. Recently I flew on an nav-ex with a student to Kemble. He then did the excellent Stall/Spin package with 'Ultimate High' and we then did another nav ex back home. It made an excellent day out but the student's performance was grossly affected on the return leg.