Tailwheel Woes

[modelman]

Had my first taildragger lesson on Saturday ( I am PPL with 85hrs all on Cessna/Piper trikes) in a Chipmunk.
Loved every minute of it and thought ( in my limited overall experience) that it handled very nicely and certainly illustrated what the rudder is for in coordinated turns.
BUT-The take off/landing runs were like a demented shopping trolley-very cool guy in the back basically leaving it all to me ( although gave a very thorough briefing preflight).He seemed very happy with my general handling and my approaches and touchdowns (although the stick back to the stomach takes a bit of getting used to) but once on the ground it was Tesco time again.

Had thought up till now that my future lay in flying spamcans for the ubiquitous bacon butty ( have done the L2k thing as well) but I think flying something like a Chippie is likely to be more challenging/fun.

Does it generally take very long to master this and do experienced tailwheel pilots still have the occasional meander?
Any special reason why the Chipmunk doesn't have a lockable tailwheel which might have tamed it a bit?

MM

[eharding]

Yes, everyone has that feeling at one time or another, particularly at first.

I did my tailwheel conversion in a Pitts S2 with Alan Cassidy, and had much the same impression as you during the first few sorties. AC's reaction to my misgivings was...."Well, so does everyone; what makes you think you're different to everyone else?".

Hang on in there.

[stiknruda]

Most of my time (75%) is in tail wheel a/c.

I have a good bit of Chipmunk time but have never had to fly one with "silly" x-winds.

The Chippie is a rather benign aircraft, especially in that difficult 12", 'tween ground and air/air and ground.

Sounds to me like you just need more time in her!

Have fun.


Stik

[Contacttower]

My first tail dragger was the Super Cub, and yes the first time I was all over the shop. Things like the direction of the wind and the swing at the start of the take off run were suddenly so much more important, also remembering the visual picture when the tail was up (for about a second when solo ). After a little while I got used to it and but even now things go wandering a bit sometimes. I have never landed a tail dragger on the hard before- I'm told it is harder than grass. You really can't take good landings for granted like you can in the PA28 for example. Taildraggers demand more attention and concentration but remember at one time everyone learnt on them, its just today that the GA world has gone soft.

[stickandrudderman]

I too have recently been hooked on taildraggers, and in particular the Chippie.
I find that the aircraft somehow involves the pilot so much more in the experience, not just in terms of handling, but in terms of soul!
The smell and the sound combined with the feeling of being a "temorary custodian" of a valuable antique all combine to force the muscles in my face to contort so that a smile becomes impossible to avoid!
Even just taxiing with the canopy back is just such a wonderful feeling!
I've also recently had a go in the Pitts with AC at WW, and was sufficiently moved to start a thread about it.
If only the vagueries of time and money didn't impeed me so; I'd be able to tell you of my significant progress after my initial lesson!
Anyway, I'm babbling again.......
Stick with it and enjoy!!

[IFMU]

Does it generally take very long to master this and do experienced tailwheel pilots still have the occasional meander?

mm,

Tailwheel flying is not a skill just for the supremely gifted. If it was, we would have had a lot less pilots before nosewheels. Plus, as further proof, even I can do it.

Nosewheel airplanes don't give you the quality feedback when you do a less than quality job of lining up the airplane with its direction of travel. Tailwheel airplanes do. Once you get the hang of it, it's not so bad. Remember, there are no squirrley airplanes, only squirrley pilots.

As far as the occasional meander, you betcha. Just like any flying skill, the best measure of a pilot is not necessarily doing it perfect every time, but more so the ability to recover when you have screwed it up. Just don't let it go too far! And if you have let it go too far, and have flying speed, get them wheels off the ground! Then the problem goes away.

I'm a firm believer in training on hardtop. Crosswinds and all. Everybody is different, but I've seen guys who are very intimidated by pavement. Get that trained out early and it's no big deal.

-- IFMU

[Dan Winterland]

Keep at it and don't get discourraged. You can't expect to geh it hacked in 1 hour. You're now finding out what your feet are for!

DW (1000ish hrs on Chipmunks)

[QDMQDMQDM]

In my own experience it is a good 15-20 hours before the fear starts to abate, but it is well worth it. You can never take tailwheel flying for granted though, which is the way it should be.

[Winco]

Modelman,

The thing I like the most about Taildraggers, is that there is no 'let up' in controlling them, in particular, on the ground as you have found.

I fly an Auster and love every minute of it. The take off is always exciting, and like you, in the early days I genuingly believed there was something wrong with the aircraft - I was all over the runway!

Likewise, the landing was equally 'challenging' but so, so satisfying when a good one came along.

Even the taxi out and back takes practice and a lot of concentration. I recall after I had done about 80 hrs on Taildraggers (all Austers) I thought I had it cracked. I came in to land one day, and just after touchdown as I was slowing down to taxi speed, I relaxed a bit too much and the back end went and round we spun!! You have to control it from start up to shut down.

I'm not sure you (or anyone) ever really masters them - I have a good friend with 18,000 hours, who tells me that every 3rd or 4th landing in his Auster is 'interesting'!! - I say no more.

Stick with it, it does get better and easier, but after you've been in a taildragger like the Chipmunk or Auster, the Spamcans will be so easy, and they won't be half as much fun anymore!

Regards
The Winco

[pulse1]

I have a good friend with 18,000 hours, who tells me that every 3rd or 4th landing in his Auster is 'interesting'!!

Winco,

Thanks for posting that. Having recently converted back to a taildragger after many years, just as I think I've got it beat, an "interesting" one comes along. You've made me feel a bit better about it.

[vulcanpilot]

I remember my 1st couple of hours with fondness

I couldn't get used to the idea of shoving the stick forward to get the tail flying (was paranoid about over-cooking it and nosing over into the prop) and as for the take-off roll -

After 5 hours was very comfortable with the whole idea, and was getting some superb 3-pointers. Then it all goes horribly wrong after a cracking landing when told to 'expedite vacate next left' so still going a bit too fast started to turn to exit and found the tail starting to overtake me Managed to get it back - just.

Moral is, don't disengage your brain for even the merest second as it can go a bit wonky very quickly.

Chippie is a wonderful aircraft to fly. You will 'get it' quite quickly, just remember to use your legs/feet a lot. Re. the meandering, it can help to have a couple of notches of brake on - this should give you a bit more (easier) directional control whilst you get used to handling it on the ground and in the roll.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Keep those feet dancing and you'll soon get the hang of it. Lots of small movements rather than letting a swing develop.

After learning on trikes, it does take some getting used to, but all it needs is more concentration and care.

Keep at it and eventually you'll get the hang of it.

[LowNSlow]

You'll get used to it with practice. All taildraggers can and will bite, a perfect 3-pointer is never guaranteed especially if there are witnesses!!!

[BroomstickPilot]

Dragging your tail

Hi Modelman,

All taildraggers handle differently and some are more difficult to master than others. The easiest in my experience was the Tiger Moth followed by the Supercub. I learned on Auster J1 Autocrats, and they were definitely challenging with a pronounced tendency to bounce because of the rubber bungy suspension. All these aircraft were made somewhat easier to handle on the ground by reason of operating of grass airfields.

The Chipmunk is not one of the easiest. Taxiing, I found it to be like riding on a block of soap on a wet floor! The rather complex braking system didn't help. Chipmunks have hard tyres and are usually operated from metalled runways, this makes them very prone to deviating especially during takeoff.

My guess is that you, like most people nowadays, were probably trained on an American spam-can. These aircraft are flying family saloons; (the Pa28 in particular is an Austin Maxi with wings). The designers were trying to tempt non flyers into the air: the people who designed the Chipmunk were trying to provide a classroom for military pilots who really needed to become competent flyers.

At the end of the day, all that is needed is more time on type and you will have no trouble.

Have fun and good luck,

Broomstick

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Tailwheeling is definitely a 'riding a bike' or 'hovering a helicopter' skill. It's a nightmare to start with but one day it clicks and then you can do it without too much concious effort. Also noticably, your control inputs will go from coarse to very fine.

My top tips for the Chippy are:

• Treat it with respect. It is a classic, historic, irreplaceable. As has been said, you are merely the custodian. Be gentle and look after it.
• Weave the nose when taxiing. You CANNOT see from your 1130 to 1230 o/c in the ground attitude. Too many people have taxied into obstructions and damaged the aircraft. Set a couple of notches of brake so that you have differential braking at the limits of rudder travel. Likewise, weave the nose in the climb.
• Open her up progressively and gently on T/O and you'll get no significant swing. Slamming the throttle open is unnecessary, rags the Gypsy Major. Directional control on T/O is good because of the rudder authority in the slipstream. Therefore for T/O brakes should be fully off ie application of full rudder does not apply any differential braking - you won't need it. If the crosswind is so sporty that you think you do, then maybe you should go flying another day.
• On landing, with less rudder authority than takeoff, directional control can be more of a handfull. Set a couple of notches of brake as for taxiing. Not too much though.
• A tailwheeler is more prone to bouncing on landing. Don't be shy to go around. If you bounce high or the bounces are increasing in size, go around otherwise you'll hit the ground hard.
• The Chippy flies great aeros if you treat it gently. Nice wide gentle aerobatics are a treat. If you try to pull the wings off and rag it around at 4.5G all the time, you'll bleed of energy quickly and fatigue a vintage airframe. If you want to do that do it in something modern. Watch the RPM as it can easily be oversped in aeros and make sure the brakes are fully off as part of your HASELLs (brakes interfere with rudder movement, remember).
  Cold carb air gives you an extra 3 hp to play with!
• The Chippy glides beautifully. (Anyone know the L/D?) You have a lot of time during a PFL to get it right compared to many other types. Don't forget to warm the engine regularly.

That's all I can think of right now. Enjoy.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

On landing, with less rudder authority than takeoff, directional control can be more of a handfull. Set a couple of notches of brake as for taxiing. Not too much though.
------------------------------------

Don't do this! It limits rudder travel, and while you are learning (or at any time in a crosswind) you may well need full rudder. In the unlikely event you need assitance from the brakes during the landing (I can't rmember the last time I did - and I've been flying the Chippy as my regular mount for almsot 30 years) you can apply brake whe you need it. You'll already have full rudder on, so you'll get the appropriate brake just by easing the brake handle back (you can do this with the crook of the little finger of the left hand - it doesn't need much).

Why hasn't it a tailwheel lock? Because with only 145bhp on tap it doesn't need it. the small swing on T/O is easily contained by rudder.

Fear not - you will soon get used to controlling it with your feet. Eventually, it becomes automatic and you don't need to think about it.

I converted on to the Chippy straight after completing my PPL on C150s, with about 40 hours total time. I was ready for Chippy solo in about 3 hours, but 5 to 10 is more likely to be required these days when Chippys are a tad more valuable and more expensive to mend than they were back then!

SSD

[Fg Off Max Stout]

SSD and I will have to agree to differ there. The RAF Pilot's Notes state 'Brakes...As required' in the pre landing checks, which is not the same thing as 'Brakes...OFF'. It was RAF SOP to do as I described.

The reason being that if the aircraft (being directionally unstable on the ground) diverges to the point where you have full opposite rudder applied, and continues to turn while you've run out of rudder travel, then it will groundloop. Not good. If you have 2-3 notches of brake set, differential braking will come into effect as you reach the limits of rudder travel and should give you the extra authority to prevent loss of directional control. Ideally you shouldn't have to get anywhere near the limits of rudder travel, but as with most things in flying, you prepare for the non-ideal.

If you have too much brake set, then differential braking will apply with very little rudder input, or with more brake still, the brakes will be applied continuously. Both are obviously dangerous for landing.

[tigerbatics]

I agree. The best approach in the Chippy to a xwind landing is with the brakes set a notch or two prior to touchdown. I first flew a Chippy many years ago but that was my briefing and also the instruction in the Pilot's Notes. Experience showed it worked pretty well too.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I think we've been here before on Proon. With ANY brake set, you will NOT reach full rudder deflection - the brake will restrict it. That's why a vital pre-aerobatic check is 'BRAKES OFF', since otherwise you won't get full rudder and you might not recover from a spin.

Why would you want to set rudder for landing? 'Because the RAF says so' is not an acceptable answer. What's the reason? The RAF also say that T/O flap does not affect T/O performance either way. Having a couple of times departed short strips without flap in a Chippy, I can tell you what a load of bunkum that is! dH gave it 2 flap stages for a very good reason, but the RAF don't use stage 1.

With brake, you will not reach full rudder deflection should you need it - the brake will come on instead which might save a swing - but so might full rudder without the brake.

If you land with brakes off, you give yourself all the options; you have FULL rudder travel available should you need it. If you ground loop and even full rudder won't hold it, gently pulling back on the brake lever will apply the appropriate brake, and seasoned chippy pilots will drop their hand the few inches from the throttle in the latter stages of rollout to the brake lever 'just in case'.

So why land with brake applied and deny yourself full rudder authority? If you need it, it's still there if you land with BRAKES OFF should you need it? Why limit your options?

Edited to add, since another poster has said he does it too, that this practice is widely taught to novice Chippy pilots BECAUSE IT IS IN THE BOOK. It's in the book because that's what the RAF taught! It is self-perpetuating!

Think it through from first principles, and see if it really makes sense - like never using T/O flap and wiring the carb heat in 'Warm'.

SSD

[jabberwok]

If you have 2-3 notches of brake set, differential braking will come into effect as you reach the limits of rudder travel and should give you the extra authority to prevent loss of directional control.

I was taught this too but I started with 2 notches and moved up to three as experience increased. I was always concious that excess rudder would kick in brake and was wary that severe application would snap the aircraft into a ground loop in the opposite direction. At least you could feel the brake coming on.

On the Leopard Moth you don't have any choice - brake is automatically applied with increasing rudder travel. This isn't so nice as its early brakes can be a bit snatchy.

Keep at the practise - eventually all the hard work will pay off and you will start to enjoy yourself. Never let your concentration lapse for one second on take off or landing and never get overconfident. A taildragger will teach you more about pure flying than all your previous hours and will make you a better pilot.