The PFA
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jbqc
Well, he has to live with that and so do you. He is after all the CEO.
Now you know that you need to toe the line then don't you? That's the way that life is, either play the game by the rules or take a walk. The owner of this site sets rules as well. If you don't like it then that's unfortunate (for you). I for one am fed up with the destructive anarchists who have used the PFA BB for their own deviant agendas. There is in my view nothing useful that can be achieved by maintaining a constant assault upon the PFA which it has thus far reluctantly tolerated . It is in my view quite within it's rights to deal with anarchists in any way that it so choses even deleting posts on it's BB (big deal).
Maybe they closed the BB to give those anarchists some time to recover from their feeding frenzy and cut them some slack time to consider their positions.
For heavens sake the PFA is there for the benefit of it's membership and some of us have homebuilts that we would otherwise find very difficult to fly if the PFA went out of existence. There are more democratic ways of bringing about change other than acting in a deplorable unruly manner. Even British governments have been overthrown, but not by the likes of noisy militants demonstrating at the gates of Downing Street if you get my drift!
The CEO told a lie on the BB to save face and it backfired on him.
Some of us were told we would be put out of the ass and we could not then own an another homebuilt.
They then close the BB for weeks and bann non members because people ask a few searching questions.
For heavens sake the PFA is there for the benefit of it's membership and some of us have homebuilts that we would otherwise find very difficult to fly if the PFA went out of existence. There are more democratic ways of bringing about change other than acting in a deplorable unruly manner. Even British governments have been overthrown, but not by the likes of noisy militants demonstrating at the gates of Downing Street if you get my drift!
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Maybe I am missing something (I wouldn’t be surprised!), what is it about the PFA then that stirs up the bitching/anti-bitching stuff? I am a member of the PFA for one reason only and that is because it’s cheaper to run my a/c under their auspices than directly via the CAA. I pay my subs and my permit fees and that’s that. I am not remotely interesting in building things, I don’t care whether they are based in Shoreham or Timbuktu or whether they hold a rally or not. Is it just an ego thing with those with low self esteem jockeying for what they perceive as some measure of personal worth by running something or trying to interfere with someone else’s life, or is it an ignorant membership wrecking the expert actions of a misunderstood band of dedicated, competent management team?
Perhaps some of the devotees could explain what the point of the PFA is, apart from taking a chunk of GA out of direct contact with the CAA?
Perhaps some of the devotees could explain what the point of the PFA is, apart from taking a chunk of GA out of direct contact with the CAA?
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Is it just an ego thing with those with low self esteem jockeying for what they perceive as some measure of personal worth by running something or trying to interfere with someone else’s life, or is it an ignorant membership wrecking the expert actions of a misunderstood band of dedicated, competent management team?
The majority of the membership have had enough of the noisy morons who seek to undermine the PFA to the detriment of the majority of it's members who are happy to see the PFA continue pretty much unchanged.
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P'raps there is an answer:-
Separate out the business of airworthiness into a wholly owned subsidiary that is run on commercial lines with a proper management structure. PFA as owners task the management team with producing a commercial rate of return on the investment but is not involved with the day to day running of the organisation.
Those who own or are building Permit aircraft do not then have to be members of the PFA but pay the same amount and become customers of the airworthiness business. If they are aggrieved then their remedy is the same that it would be against any other company.
The PFA itself is then a separate members organisation that runs the strut system, the Magazine, the Rally, Young Eagles, Coaching Scheme etc. Those who are members of the PFA have a voice as members and are there because they choose to be rather than because they have to be by virtue of having bought a Permit aircraft. If of they break the rules they can be expelled just like any other club.
Mike
Separate out the business of airworthiness into a wholly owned subsidiary that is run on commercial lines with a proper management structure. PFA as owners task the management team with producing a commercial rate of return on the investment but is not involved with the day to day running of the organisation.
Those who own or are building Permit aircraft do not then have to be members of the PFA but pay the same amount and become customers of the airworthiness business. If they are aggrieved then their remedy is the same that it would be against any other company.
The PFA itself is then a separate members organisation that runs the strut system, the Magazine, the Rally, Young Eagles, Coaching Scheme etc. Those who are members of the PFA have a voice as members and are there because they choose to be rather than because they have to be by virtue of having bought a Permit aircraft. If of they break the rules they can be expelled just like any other club.
Mike
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And exactly why should the PFA fragment itself just to suit a rowdy minority?
I reproduce Sticknruda's post of 10 April since he is a true wordsmith
I endorse these words of wisdom entirely
I reproduce Sticknruda's post of 10 April since he is a true wordsmith
To expand upon a previous post to make sure that I have managed to get my thoughts over in a way that cannot be misconstrued....
I am very aware that the PFA does have serious issues that need to be addressed. Bitching and sniping don't help - if you want to see change then do something to evoke change!
Join a strut, let your NC rep know how you'd address the issues. Canvass an EC member - contact him, full details are available within every PF. Contact HQ, do something constructive, bitching on a BB that makes up part of the PFA's electronic shop-front to the world really does nothing to enhance the image of the PFA.
....
I am very aware that the PFA does have serious issues that need to be addressed. Bitching and sniping don't help - if you want to see change then do something to evoke change!
Join a strut, let your NC rep know how you'd address the issues. Canvass an EC member - contact him, full details are available within every PF. Contact HQ, do something constructive, bitching on a BB that makes up part of the PFA's electronic shop-front to the world really does nothing to enhance the image of the PFA.
....
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The PFA management is totally to balme for the lambasting they received on their BB during last winter. They took sides with the CAA against an Inspector, the CEO told a lie when he answered a question on the BB, they did not return telephone calls or reply to letters or emails from at least 10 members here in N Ireland.
They took the word of others who were shown to have lied to the CAA and in court. The member who made the complaint about the Inspector had made false entries in his logbook,
They said they investigated the matter yet the aircraft in question was based at my farm strip and I was one of only 4 people to see the damage. I wrote to the PFA telling them I was willing to provide them or the CAA with any information I had, but was never contacted.
The CAA ended up with egg on their face because the PFA did not carryout a full investigation into the matter and even the evidence of the repair was "lost or destroyed". The CAA were only made aware in court that the aircraft was not secured by the PFA as evidence, and was left with the owner to do what ever he wanted to do with it.
£450,000 of CAA and taxpayers legal aid money were wasted and 8 days of crown court time.
The Inspector was cleared of all charges yet the PFA wanted more blood and refused to accept the court findings.
The Chief Inspector was the only one in the office with the balls to stand up for the Inspector and he even was suspended for doing so by the former chairman.
I would rather give the CAA the extra money to fly than be forced to join this bunch of wasters and I dont need a silly user name to say so.
Tony Ringland
[email protected]
They took the word of others who were shown to have lied to the CAA and in court. The member who made the complaint about the Inspector had made false entries in his logbook,
They said they investigated the matter yet the aircraft in question was based at my farm strip and I was one of only 4 people to see the damage. I wrote to the PFA telling them I was willing to provide them or the CAA with any information I had, but was never contacted.
The CAA ended up with egg on their face because the PFA did not carryout a full investigation into the matter and even the evidence of the repair was "lost or destroyed". The CAA were only made aware in court that the aircraft was not secured by the PFA as evidence, and was left with the owner to do what ever he wanted to do with it.
£450,000 of CAA and taxpayers legal aid money were wasted and 8 days of crown court time.
The Inspector was cleared of all charges yet the PFA wanted more blood and refused to accept the court findings.
The Chief Inspector was the only one in the office with the balls to stand up for the Inspector and he even was suspended for doing so by the former chairman.
I would rather give the CAA the extra money to fly than be forced to join this bunch of wasters and I dont need a silly user name to say so.
Tony Ringland
[email protected]
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So far as your allegations go, they may or may not be true, there are often two sides to every story and we have heard yours. I can tell you that regardless of any errors or otherwise made by the PFA executive, you do not have a mandate from all the other members or even a majority to destroy the PFA.
Why then don't you take up Sticknruda's suggestions instead of posting on this forum with or without a silly user name?
I dont need a silly user name to say so.
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The majority of the membership have had enough of the noisy morons who seek to undermine the PFA to the detriment of the majority of it's members who are happy to see the PFA continue pretty much unchanged.
The members present at the AGM did not appear to me to share your opinion. Were I asked for an adjective it would be "concerned" or "worried" rather than "happy to see the PFA continue pretty much unchanged"
While I do not necessarily endorse Tony Ringland's opinions I do not believe he is acting out of malice but out of a sincerely held sense of injustice. Dismissing those whose opinions you do not share as "noisy morons" is unhelpful. It polarises opinions and prevents reasoned debate.
Mike
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The members present at the AGM did not appear to me to share your opinion
How many times do I have to refer you back to Sticknruda's post, that is the way forward, berating the executive of the PFA on a public BB is most certainly not the way forward.
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Sad to see that despite its own BB now being back in action, the PFA "fight" continues to spill out into the surrounding streets.
I'm not a member of the PFA, nor do I fly the sort of aircraft that would naturally take me in that direction, but this chapter has definitively persuaded me that the PFA is not a good home for people like me who are disenchanted with UK AOPA.
There was a time not so long ago, when PFA activists were actively reaching out to those who felt that UK AOPA was ineffective. That would be a real uphill battle now.
2D
I'm not a member of the PFA, nor do I fly the sort of aircraft that would naturally take me in that direction, but this chapter has definitively persuaded me that the PFA is not a good home for people like me who are disenchanted with UK AOPA.
There was a time not so long ago, when PFA activists were actively reaching out to those who felt that UK AOPA was ineffective. That would be a real uphill battle now.
2D
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I do not know Tony R or George Adams but I managed to get the transcript of the crown court trial as I have been following the recent CAA cases. (most of which they have lost)
The defence council took the CAA and the PFA to pieces and made complete fools out of both. Ken Craigie was a CAA witness yet he defended Mr Adams.
The PFA Inspector Mr L...., a CAA witness was told by the Judge that his evidence was full of contradictions and he would direct the Jury to disregard it
The new owner and his friend both claimed to have flown the aircraft from N Ireland as P1 and both logged flights as P1 which were not even in the aircraft logbook.
They had some expert from the CAA who sat for the whole trial and when he took the stand the CC Judge sent the jury out and said "Did you examine the aircraft? ("NO") "Well we are not going to listen to any more of this third hand testimony" and sent him home.
What a bloody waste of time and money
It was more like a script from "Yes Minister" or a "Carry-on" film.
So I think Mr Adams and his friends like Tony Ringland have a right to be pissed off with the Ass.
Some of my friends went to the AGM but were not allowed to even ask a question, so don't lecture us on how we should all tow the line. The PFA is in a mess and if those at the top had any concern for the Ass they would go.
John Brown
The defence council took the CAA and the PFA to pieces and made complete fools out of both. Ken Craigie was a CAA witness yet he defended Mr Adams.
The PFA Inspector Mr L...., a CAA witness was told by the Judge that his evidence was full of contradictions and he would direct the Jury to disregard it
The new owner and his friend both claimed to have flown the aircraft from N Ireland as P1 and both logged flights as P1 which were not even in the aircraft logbook.
They had some expert from the CAA who sat for the whole trial and when he took the stand the CC Judge sent the jury out and said "Did you examine the aircraft? ("NO") "Well we are not going to listen to any more of this third hand testimony" and sent him home.
What a bloody waste of time and money
It was more like a script from "Yes Minister" or a "Carry-on" film.
So I think Mr Adams and his friends like Tony Ringland have a right to be pissed off with the Ass.
Some of my friends went to the AGM but were not allowed to even ask a question, so don't lecture us on how we should all tow the line. The PFA is in a mess and if those at the top had any concern for the Ass they would go.
John Brown
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Pinga
If you were reading the PFA BB last year you will have noticed that there were more than a few members who were concerned about the way things were being run.
But as someone has already said most members dont give a s..t as long as someone inspects their a/c and gives them a permit to fly.
Even a couple of potential members were put off by the unnecessary editing of posts, like the fella who tried to cool things down by putting a couple of photos of Kylie on the thread and was told by the CEO "the PFA will not have soft porn on this site".
He was an airline pilot who was going to buy a PFA aircraft, he went on to buy a C of A aircraft and did not join.
I would love to see a good flying association in the UK and Ireland and there are many like me who have plenty of experience to give but do not have the time to sit on ECs or NCs etc. For the moment I will continue to support AOPA USA.
Tony R
If you were reading the PFA BB last year you will have noticed that there were more than a few members who were concerned about the way things were being run.
But as someone has already said most members dont give a s..t as long as someone inspects their a/c and gives them a permit to fly.
Even a couple of potential members were put off by the unnecessary editing of posts, like the fella who tried to cool things down by putting a couple of photos of Kylie on the thread and was told by the CEO "the PFA will not have soft porn on this site".
He was an airline pilot who was going to buy a PFA aircraft, he went on to buy a C of A aircraft and did not join.
I would love to see a good flying association in the UK and Ireland and there are many like me who have plenty of experience to give but do not have the time to sit on ECs or NCs etc. For the moment I will continue to support AOPA USA.
Tony R
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Hey Pinga.
What about the letter from Lord Trefgarne, was he a "noisy moran" or should he have shut his mouth and let the ass continue as is.
J B
Maybe because those present were mostly the noisy morons to which I was referring to.
J B
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PFA BB
Well,
I've had a good look at the 'New PFA Bulletin Board' and it strikes me as being a half-dozen apparatchiks and apologists for the disgraceful state of what has been going on in the PFA telling each other how nice it is to post on the bulletin board and slap each other on the back, metaphorically speaking, for dreaming up a ruse to prevent open discussion and criticism.
Very boring...I can't see it catching on.
I've had a good look at the 'New PFA Bulletin Board' and it strikes me as being a half-dozen apparatchiks and apologists for the disgraceful state of what has been going on in the PFA telling each other how nice it is to post on the bulletin board and slap each other on the back, metaphorically speaking, for dreaming up a ruse to prevent open discussion and criticism.
Very boring...I can't see it catching on.
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Cheers Lomcovaks!
I must be one of those "apparatchiks and apologists" you mention as I've recently logged back on to the PFA BB and made a couple of posts.
This whole episode has really left me feeling depressed. How can one incident cause such major disruption ... or was it just the straw that broke the camels back? I've been a PFA supporter for as long as I can remember and I will be for as long as it continues. I well remember a feeling of unease when PFA Ulair was first mooted ... but that's a long while ago now
There is nothing wrong with trying to get the PFA BB back up and running well. It held a very useful purpose for those who want more than the politics of the ass. It was a good way to communicate ideas on our aircraft, building problems and many of the other less controversial but never-the-less useful pooled knowledge base. It's a shame that so many are baying for blood and can't see through the red mist to give all we who simply want to get on with things the chance to do so. I'm not saying the politics aren't important ... but please don't shoot the messenger!
Ivan
I must be one of those "apparatchiks and apologists" you mention as I've recently logged back on to the PFA BB and made a couple of posts.
This whole episode has really left me feeling depressed. How can one incident cause such major disruption ... or was it just the straw that broke the camels back? I've been a PFA supporter for as long as I can remember and I will be for as long as it continues. I well remember a feeling of unease when PFA Ulair was first mooted ... but that's a long while ago now
There is nothing wrong with trying to get the PFA BB back up and running well. It held a very useful purpose for those who want more than the politics of the ass. It was a good way to communicate ideas on our aircraft, building problems and many of the other less controversial but never-the-less useful pooled knowledge base. It's a shame that so many are baying for blood and can't see through the red mist to give all we who simply want to get on with things the chance to do so. I'm not saying the politics aren't important ... but please don't shoot the messenger!
Ivan
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This whole episode has really left me feeling depressed. How can one incident cause such major disruption ... or was it just the straw that broke the camels back?
I think the CAA should put out to tender the whole business of homebuilt aircraft and get some professional company to run the permit system.
Dawn
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TonyR
Ah so you want to leave it to others to sit on EC’s or NC’s do you? Well if you leave it to others you will never play a constructive part in the organisation will you? There are loads of clever sods who would have done things differently if it had been up to them! Well the PFA is an association and YOU do have an opportunity to either get involved or leave it to others. If you choose to leave it to others then you will never be a leader.
Dawn B
that is an intended joke right? Yes, I can see it now, a new company run by highly paid "professionals" administered by highly paid professionals in the CAA. Permits being charged on a cost plus basis, a permit to fly shouldn't cost more than a couple of thousand a year and of course, this new organisation will be as efficient and flexible as the CAA is now I guess! 
Yes, this new company will be all things to all people and so there will never be any dissent, we shall be one step further towards a perfect world.
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree because this thread is pointless and it's clear that after all said there is no moderation intended by those intent of bringing the PFA into disrepute. I just hope that those noisy morons are happy with the consequences of the damage that they are doing, the consequences of which may well result in less flexibility and more legislation, increased costs and possibly even the demise of the permit system altogether.
I would love to see a good flying association in the UK and Ireland and there are many like me who have plenty of experience to give but do not have the time to sit on ECs or NCs etc. For the moment I will continue to support AOPA USA.
Dawn B
I think the CAA should put out to tender the whole business of homebuilt aircraft and get some professional company to run the permit system.
that is an intended joke right? Yes, I can see it now, a new company run by highly paid "professionals" administered by highly paid professionals in the CAA. Permits being charged on a cost plus basis, a permit to fly shouldn't cost more than a couple of thousand a year and of course, this new organisation will be as efficient and flexible as the CAA is now I guess! Yes, this new company will be all things to all people and so there will never be any dissent, we shall be one step further towards a perfect world.I think we are going to have to agree to disagree because this thread is pointless and it's clear that after all said there is no moderation intended by those intent of bringing the PFA into disrepute. I just hope that those noisy morons are happy with the consequences of the damage that they are doing, the consequences of which may well result in less flexibility and more legislation, increased costs and possibly even the demise of the permit system altogether.
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Pinga
I grew up with homebuilt a/c, if I wanted to see my Father it was in the workshop.
I have two concerns about the system.
1; There are a lot of "new" pfa type of owners, many with little or no engineering experience and little flying experience. They buy a homebuilt and tend to treat it like a "boy racers" car, doing mods and fitting toys without ever getting approval or an inspection. Some Inspectors must not be doing a good job and the eng dept do not police the system well.
What got to me about the Adams case is that there are lots of other un-reported accidents in both PFA and BMAA aircraft, often these are repaired and sold on the this "new" type of owner. I know I should do my duty and report anything like this that I know about. But some Inspectors don't even bother reporting them.
__________________________________________________
2; The approval of type like the Europa. "The great British hope". I have seen 3 aircraft accidents in the last 10 years. All in Europa mono wheel aircraft. All with high time pilots on board. All landing.
Talking to the pilots I was told that the aircraft will fly before it can be controlled properly. "you are in the lap of the gods for a few seconds at take off and landing" said one pilot.
So why has the PFA spent so much time promoting this aircraft when there are many safe aircraft not being allowed on the register ( and some like the Shadow grounded). It seems that the process is handled by a few people who can get carried away with something they fancy rather than good old aero engineering principles.
I have 1800 hours on 30 type, over 600 on 20 tailwheel type and 100 or so gliding. I have never flown an aircraft that could not be controlled on the ground, (some require a bit of skill) so what the hell is the Europa doing in the air at all. See the SRG publications over the last few years I think the Europa averages about 4 bumps per month.
I don't have the answer to the problem but the PFA need to change.
Dawn
I grew up with homebuilt a/c, if I wanted to see my Father it was in the workshop.
I have two concerns about the system.
1; There are a lot of "new" pfa type of owners, many with little or no engineering experience and little flying experience. They buy a homebuilt and tend to treat it like a "boy racers" car, doing mods and fitting toys without ever getting approval or an inspection. Some Inspectors must not be doing a good job and the eng dept do not police the system well.
What got to me about the Adams case is that there are lots of other un-reported accidents in both PFA and BMAA aircraft, often these are repaired and sold on the this "new" type of owner. I know I should do my duty and report anything like this that I know about. But some Inspectors don't even bother reporting them.
__________________________________________________
2; The approval of type like the Europa. "The great British hope". I have seen 3 aircraft accidents in the last 10 years. All in Europa mono wheel aircraft. All with high time pilots on board. All landing.
Talking to the pilots I was told that the aircraft will fly before it can be controlled properly. "you are in the lap of the gods for a few seconds at take off and landing" said one pilot.
So why has the PFA spent so much time promoting this aircraft when there are many safe aircraft not being allowed on the register ( and some like the Shadow grounded). It seems that the process is handled by a few people who can get carried away with something they fancy rather than good old aero engineering principles.
I have 1800 hours on 30 type, over 600 on 20 tailwheel type and 100 or so gliding. I have never flown an aircraft that could not be controlled on the ground, (some require a bit of skill) so what the hell is the Europa doing in the air at all. See the SRG publications over the last few years I think the Europa averages about 4 bumps per month.
I don't have the answer to the problem but the PFA need to change.
Dawn