The PFA
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Have followed this thread from the beginning!
How very very sad all this is.
What a lot of ego-strutting and back covering is being displayed.
I have had really good experiences of dealing with Francis Donaldson and the PFA engineering staff, and thank them for their hard and dedicated work.
But for the rest of the PFA bunch.....
Perhaps to the want-list of honesty and trustworthiness should be added HUMILITY... for the sake of all of us private flyers who just want to continue to get into the sky with the minimum of cost and bureaucracy.
Some people seem to get their kicks more from the exercise of a bit of power, rather than facilitating our joy at being up there with the birds.
In sadness
Mike Godsell
How very very sad all this is.
What a lot of ego-strutting and back covering is being displayed.
I have had really good experiences of dealing with Francis Donaldson and the PFA engineering staff, and thank them for their hard and dedicated work.
But for the rest of the PFA bunch.....
Perhaps to the want-list of honesty and trustworthiness should be added HUMILITY... for the sake of all of us private flyers who just want to continue to get into the sky with the minimum of cost and bureaucracy.
Some people seem to get their kicks more from the exercise of a bit of power, rather than facilitating our joy at being up there with the birds.
In sadness
Mike Godsell
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ECMan
What do you say now about the HONESTY of the PFA and the switching off of the BB
How can this bunch of people run the association when they continue to lie to the members.
What do you say now about the HONESTY of the PFA and the switching off of the BB
He discovered that nothing was wrong - it was switched off!. IT REMAINED DOWN SINCE OUT OF CHOICE. Most PFA staff know this.
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Could someone tell us all in plane english, what George Adams did wrong, all this "duty of care" bull**** will not wash with us anymore.
Ken and Francis both accepted that George did nothing to endanger any aircraft but it would appear that those at the top would rather beleive Mr Sh... & Mr L... than George who had been an Inspector for over 15 years.
George is still the most senior inspector with the BMAA and with SAAC. both these organisations trusted in George and supported him during the trial.
George should not have to ask to be re-instated he should be welcomed back by the PFA as they need men like him.
Tony Ringland has been called all sorts by PFA EC and management, all he did was ask a few questions on behalf of the members here in N Ireland, none of which have been addressed to date.
Tony is one really decent man and is one of the best all round pilots in the country. If he has a spare seat he will always take a young PPL or SPPL along for the trip and has done a lot to introduce new pilots and to get old pilots back in the air.
I am now considering selling my PFA permit a/c and going with the BMAA as I can no longer trust the PFA
Ken
Ken and Francis both accepted that George did nothing to endanger any aircraft but it would appear that those at the top would rather beleive Mr Sh... & Mr L... than George who had been an Inspector for over 15 years.
George is still the most senior inspector with the BMAA and with SAAC. both these organisations trusted in George and supported him during the trial.
George should not have to ask to be re-instated he should be welcomed back by the PFA as they need men like him.
Tony Ringland has been called all sorts by PFA EC and management, all he did was ask a few questions on behalf of the members here in N Ireland, none of which have been addressed to date.
Tony is one really decent man and is one of the best all round pilots in the country. If he has a spare seat he will always take a young PPL or SPPL along for the trip and has done a lot to introduce new pilots and to get old pilots back in the air.
I am now considering selling my PFA permit a/c and going with the BMAA as I can no longer trust the PFA
Ken
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GCHQ
If what you have said is true and I beleive it to be so the PFA as it stands should have their licence suspended by the CAA. If they lie about the BB they will lie about anything.
We cant trust this association and I know people are worried about their aricraft being grounded but it is now time to cut out the rotten wood from UK homebuilt aviation. The engineering dept could continue to run under the supervision of the CAA until the PFA are sorted out.
Dawn
If what you have said is true and I beleive it to be so the PFA as it stands should have their licence suspended by the CAA. If they lie about the BB they will lie about anything.
We cant trust this association and I know people are worried about their aricraft being grounded but it is now time to cut out the rotten wood from UK homebuilt aviation. The engineering dept could continue to run under the supervision of the CAA until the PFA are sorted out.
Dawn
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ECMAN
I have had several conversations with a number of PFA people, including at least one member of the EC about the BBS and why it was off line. I also offered help in this area. I am reluctant to post what I know without first checking a few things with you. My email is; [email protected]. Your anonymity will remain.
Rod1
I have had several conversations with a number of PFA people, including at least one member of the EC about the BBS and why it was off line. I also offered help in this area. I am reluctant to post what I know without first checking a few things with you. My email is; [email protected]. Your anonymity will remain.
Rod1
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I also think it is time the CAA took action against this bunch,
GCHQ
So much for "Honour & Honesty"
Tony R
GCHQ
and behaviour he believed to be corrupt at times - legally so.
Tony R
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I see you all have changed tact and are playing on this honesty thing. Devious lot aren't you, even a couple of lawyers complaining about lies!
We would all be sorry if the PFA was closed down and the CAA took over.
I would rather have things the way they are than risk the CAA having total control of my aircraft
We would all be sorry if the PFA was closed down and the CAA took over.
I would rather have things the way they are than risk the CAA having total control of my aircraft
Last edited by nongpsuser; 20th Apr 2004 at 19:49.
locksmith,
I sympathise with your views, and it would be simple for me to seek to encourage you to move to a BMAA type, but I also happen to feel very strongly that all of the recreational aviation associations in the UK should work together harmoniously.
Unfortunately building harmonious relationships between associations isn't exactly helped by Graham Newby's insistence on taking over control of Type Approved microlights from the BMAA. The stated aim of the new PFA management of becoming the ONLY recreational aviation association in the UK also fills me with morbid dread I'm afraid................
Perhaps the BMAA might like to consider expanding their CAA Exposition to include delegated responsibility for Permit group A types? If competition is what is wanted, then I'm sure the BMAA, which already has a Permit aircraft fleet that is more than twice the size of the PFA's, will be well up to the challenge.
At least the BMAA doesn't seem to suffer the vicious infighting that has been so prevalent in the PFA in recent years.
I sympathise with your views, and it would be simple for me to seek to encourage you to move to a BMAA type, but I also happen to feel very strongly that all of the recreational aviation associations in the UK should work together harmoniously.
Unfortunately building harmonious relationships between associations isn't exactly helped by Graham Newby's insistence on taking over control of Type Approved microlights from the BMAA. The stated aim of the new PFA management of becoming the ONLY recreational aviation association in the UK also fills me with morbid dread I'm afraid................
Perhaps the BMAA might like to consider expanding their CAA Exposition to include delegated responsibility for Permit group A types? If competition is what is wanted, then I'm sure the BMAA, which already has a Permit aircraft fleet that is more than twice the size of the PFA's, will be well up to the challenge.
At least the BMAA doesn't seem to suffer the vicious infighting that has been so prevalent in the PFA in recent years.
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The way I see it is that highly respected members of the aviation community are asking the PFA, EC and Management, some questions that they don,t want to answer, and anonymous idiots are trying to stand up for them by throwing insults at everyone outside their little gang.
What do you call the member of a "gang", surely not a "gangster" ?????
And yes the BMAA would do a better job
Dawn B
What do you call the member of a "gang", surely not a "gangster" ?????
And yes the BMAA would do a better job
Dawn B
I fear you may be right, FAA Old Timer, which doesn't fill my heart with joy. I'm also an EAA member and notice that despite significant levels of criticism from certain minorities over Sport Pilot they seem to have weathered the storm fairly well. I guess the ultralight people are none too pleased about Sport Pilot, but when all is said and done fat ultralights have been tearing the backside out of CFR 14 Part 103 for years, so they shouldn't really be too surprised at the changes.
Overall I really wish that our PFA could be managed even 10% as effectively as the EAA. I know that the PFA is much smaller, but that doesn't excuse the lamentable degree of mis-management that seems to have been such a feature over the past few years.
In my view there is a place for dedicated associations to both look after the particular individual specialist interests of their members and work together with other bodies, without competition, to represent a cohesive recreational aviation federation. Perhaps this is just a pipe dream, but I do feel it would make us more effective when trying to fend of madness like compulsory Mode S etc.
Overall I really wish that our PFA could be managed even 10% as effectively as the EAA. I know that the PFA is much smaller, but that doesn't excuse the lamentable degree of mis-management that seems to have been such a feature over the past few years.
In my view there is a place for dedicated associations to both look after the particular individual specialist interests of their members and work together with other bodies, without competition, to represent a cohesive recreational aviation federation. Perhaps this is just a pipe dream, but I do feel it would make us more effective when trying to fend of madness like compulsory Mode S etc.
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OK ECMan, lets get really serious.
There have been various posts today which accuse the PFA of everthing from telling lies to corruption. All you have told us in reply is that you want to remain anonymous.
If the PFA is to survive, are you, and the "few good men" left on the EC willing to call an EGM having all positions on the EC up for re-election and a proper debate about the behaviour of the Management?
Are you willing to condem those who lied to the members about, Steve Moody, George Adams and the BB being "broken"?
If so, I for one will say no more on this BB about the PFA until after the meeting.
John Brown
There have been various posts today which accuse the PFA of everthing from telling lies to corruption. All you have told us in reply is that you want to remain anonymous.
If the PFA is to survive, are you, and the "few good men" left on the EC willing to call an EGM having all positions on the EC up for re-election and a proper debate about the behaviour of the Management?
Are you willing to condem those who lied to the members about, Steve Moody, George Adams and the BB being "broken"?
If so, I for one will say no more on this BB about the PFA until after the meeting.
John Brown
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JBQC: Trying to get to the truth of a lot of this stuff, even by asking the individuals concerned is a bit like trying to stuff a King Size duvet into it's cover! I wouldn't be willing to ask for an EGM as inevitably none of you are in posession of all the facts about most of what you criticise here (except perhaps the rally incident which Flying Lawyer seems to be fully conversant with).
There are a few good men on the EC and I hope I am one of them. It's going to take time to get to the bottom of a lot of this, I for one know a lot more than I would possibly be prepared to let on, but let's just say there's a lot to be said for allowing enough rope.....
I've tried to give some facts as understood by the EC and I've told the truth as I see it. I suspect i know a lot more than many of the detractors here, but you all seem to think you know best, ah well.
I still maintain you are doing us no good sniping from the bushes, why don't YOU call an EGM.... ah forgot, you aren't a member!
I may just retire gracefully from this BB for the moment as I can't see this going anywhere really, not here anyway, but that doesnt mean I'm giving up, but I too have a life to lead and an aeroplane to fly
There are a few good men on the EC and I hope I am one of them. It's going to take time to get to the bottom of a lot of this, I for one know a lot more than I would possibly be prepared to let on, but let's just say there's a lot to be said for allowing enough rope.....
I've tried to give some facts as understood by the EC and I've told the truth as I see it. I suspect i know a lot more than many of the detractors here, but you all seem to think you know best, ah well.
I still maintain you are doing us no good sniping from the bushes, why don't YOU call an EGM.... ah forgot, you aren't a member!
I may just retire gracefully from this BB for the moment as I can't see this going anywhere really, not here anyway, but that doesnt mean I'm giving up, but I too have a life to lead and an aeroplane to fly
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ECMan
I think you will find that I and others are in full possession of the facts about the Adams Case.
I don't think the PFA EC or Staff have ever considered what it was like for George Adams to have the prospect of a criminal trial with a possible prison sentence hanging over him for over two years.
The PFA & CAA took the word of two other members, one being an Inspector, both who were revelled in court as having lied in statements.
The PFA NEVER even contacted George after the case to wish him well. I was with George at his home about an hour after the case was over and the BMAA office rang him to congratulate him.
George was left to fund his own defence and dumped by the PFA on the word of two discredited members and he has yet to receive an apology.
So you are going to run off like the rest and keep your head down in case those "dangerous men" on the EC and at the office get upset.
Tony Ringland
I think you will find that I and others are in full possession of the facts about the Adams Case.
I don't think the PFA EC or Staff have ever considered what it was like for George Adams to have the prospect of a criminal trial with a possible prison sentence hanging over him for over two years.
The PFA & CAA took the word of two other members, one being an Inspector, both who were revelled in court as having lied in statements.
The PFA NEVER even contacted George after the case to wish him well. I was with George at his home about an hour after the case was over and the BMAA office rang him to congratulate him.
George was left to fund his own defence and dumped by the PFA on the word of two discredited members and he has yet to receive an apology.
So you are going to run off like the rest and keep your head down in case those "dangerous men" on the EC and at the office get upset.
Tony Ringland
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Tony, I don't run! Just can't see any point here, I truly sympathise with your complaints and I seriously can't imagine what it must have been like for George Adams during those two years. As I said before, the democratic processes of membership in the PFA allow for a formal complaint to be made, when it must be investigated. This was done by one of the two members you mention and the rest is history as they say. Personally I really wish one of you had done a similar thing, it would perhaps have balanced things a bit. Leaves a bad taste for all of us. The truth is that one's hands are tied by the rules of the association when a matter like this occurs. If individuals (especially those who may bend the truth) report facts from their official positions it is very difficult to make decisions within the bounds of the rules which contradict those facts (ask Flying Lawyer about that!). One may have gut feelings about this but there are 11 members at a meeting and majority rules I'm afraid, it's called democracy (laughable isn't it). I wish you well.
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if someone ask me now to join PFA what you think will be any answer I may have?
bit of a nonuseful thread we have got going here it does not teach me anything except the answer to my question I just ask.
bit of a nonuseful thread we have got going here it does not teach me anything except the answer to my question I just ask.
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ECMan, I as a member of the PFA am not very happy.
I can't ask a question on the PFA BB because Graham never replies to them and I don't beleive him anymore anyway.
I have read about the lies and possible corruption within the PFA and seem powerless to do anything.
You now seem to say that you (one of the good guys) are not in a position to do anything either.
So apart from calling in the CAA to investigate the PFA what do you suggest the ordanary members do???
It would also appear that the company that hosts the PFA BB will confirm GCHQ's story that the BB was closed down by Graham to stop members asking questions.
If there was a decent bone in their body the Chairman and the CEO should go.
I also see that despite promises the latest EC meeting notes have not been put on the PFA site.
Ken
I can't ask a question on the PFA BB because Graham never replies to them and I don't beleive him anymore anyway.
I have read about the lies and possible corruption within the PFA and seem powerless to do anything.
You now seem to say that you (one of the good guys) are not in a position to do anything either.
So apart from calling in the CAA to investigate the PFA what do you suggest the ordanary members do???
It would also appear that the company that hosts the PFA BB will confirm GCHQ's story that the BB was closed down by Graham to stop members asking questions.
If there was a decent bone in their body the Chairman and the CEO should go.
I also see that despite promises the latest EC meeting notes have not been put on the PFA site.
Ken