The PFA
I think the CAA should put out to tender the whole business of homebuilt aircraft and get some professional company to run the permit system.
). It seems that the process is handled by a few people who can get carried away with something they fancy rather than good old aero engineering principles.
But that doesn't change the fact that a lot of these aircraft are idiosynchratic, some were approved before current safety standards were in force, and occasionally designers do their damndest to pull the wool over the eyes of the approving Engineers. On the whole they do a good job.
And I think that the PFA would be the first to tell you that some of their types - a Kitfox or Europa for example - should not be flown by anybody without specific training on the type.
Having said that, I do agree with you that some aspects aren't run well. The average operators manual for a permit aeroplane would be more useful recycled as firelighters, and I include CAA permit aircraft in that - very often the handling advice is "best guess", the performance figures were written by a salesman, not produced by rigorous flight test, and operating limitations are sometimes based upon a rather tenuous basis - what is the X-wind limit in a monowheel Europa for example? As you say, unapproved mods and repairs are rife, as are people being paid to build an aeroplane for somebody - with little or no supervision and without the vested interest to get it right that an owner has. And too many people jump into ideosynchratic permit aircraft without proper training on type.
Nonetheless, we (the Brits) have by far the best system in the world for homebuilt aeroplanes, with huge choice and a safety record which is still pretty damned good. I don't think that we should lose track of that. This is basically down to the professional staff at PFA and BMAA, a few talented individuals at the CAA, and those who support them - it's certainly not down to luck.
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 17th Apr 2004 at 09:08.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: South Norfolk, England
Age: 58
Posts: 1,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But is killing off the PFA and creating a new organisation the way to go ...
IMHO ... Hell NO!!!
Whenever there is major change in almost anything these days, it is used as a way of bringing in draconian legislation and restrictions. That could easily KILL the homebuild movement in the UK ... is that wahat you'd like to see?
The PFA is trying to negotiate a "sports" category not unlike the EAA system and this will be only be a good thing in my opinion. It will protect the well meaning inspector and place MORE responsibility on the owner. It will also protect previous owners and builders, again, a GOOD thing. That way the new owner/pilot will be responsible and if they know B..all about aeroplane maint or building they should get in a man who can, or get instruction. If they bodge something and ultimately kill themselves then I'm afraid it's their own stupid fault. After all if you apply the same thinking with cars you'll see that is what happens now. We have an MOT system, but if "boy racer" goes out straight after the MOT and modifys his car then kills himself, his family can't sue the MOT station or previous owner. If something was wrong with the car when he/she bought it which subsequently leads to their death, they may have a case, but most of the time it's "buyer beware" ... why not the same for simple homebuilt aircraft?
We should stop blaming others and take more responsibility for our own actions. The same applies for the PFA board and way it's run ... if you want to change things then vote for them or better still volunteer and try to get voted onto the committee.
Ivan
( why is it that sometimes the spelling of a word completely eludes you? I tried spelling committee in all sorts of ways and non looked right .....
)
IMHO ... Hell NO!!!
Whenever there is major change in almost anything these days, it is used as a way of bringing in draconian legislation and restrictions. That could easily KILL the homebuild movement in the UK ... is that wahat you'd like to see?
The PFA is trying to negotiate a "sports" category not unlike the EAA system and this will be only be a good thing in my opinion. It will protect the well meaning inspector and place MORE responsibility on the owner. It will also protect previous owners and builders, again, a GOOD thing. That way the new owner/pilot will be responsible and if they know B..all about aeroplane maint or building they should get in a man who can, or get instruction. If they bodge something and ultimately kill themselves then I'm afraid it's their own stupid fault. After all if you apply the same thinking with cars you'll see that is what happens now. We have an MOT system, but if "boy racer" goes out straight after the MOT and modifys his car then kills himself, his family can't sue the MOT station or previous owner. If something was wrong with the car when he/she bought it which subsequently leads to their death, they may have a case, but most of the time it's "buyer beware" ... why not the same for simple homebuilt aircraft?
We should stop blaming others and take more responsibility for our own actions. The same applies for the PFA board and way it's run ... if you want to change things then vote for them or better still volunteer and try to get voted onto the committee.
Ivan
( why is it that sometimes the spelling of a word completely eludes you? I tried spelling committee in all sorts of ways and non looked right .....
)
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: N E England
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To those who have tried to change things and attend the AGM etc there has been much hostility from current members backing up the existing EC & NC.
The management have tried to silience anyone who would question a decision.
So how do we change things when open debate is not allowed within the Association.
JB
The management have tried to silience anyone who would question a decision.
So how do we change things when open debate is not allowed within the Association.
JB
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Devon
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have gone to strut meets and to other events and would have a few years ago been willing to get involved...etc, but..
I am a 30 something with tits and although I have more experience in GA aircraft than a lot of those without tits I felt like they were going to ask me to make the tea and bake buns for the next meeting.
Dawn
I am a 30 something with tits and although I have more experience in GA aircraft than a lot of those without tits I felt like they were going to ask me to make the tea and bake buns for the next meeting.
Dawn
Then stop faffing around with the amateurs (talented and interesting people 'though they are) at strut meetings and go and talk to the professionals, who are far too busy to worry about whether you've got tits or not and already have somebody to make the tea.
With your experience, you'd be well placed to become a check/test pilot with PFA or BMAA, and if you've got formal engineering qualifications, an inspector as well.
Don't believe me? take a short drive East to Old Sarum, where you can meet Leslie (airfield manager, examiner, and long term member of both organisations) or Fiona (Chief Instructor and Chief Engineer of the Shadow school there, BMAA instructor, BMAA and PFA inspector). I'm sure both would, if they've the time (turn up when the weather's crap!) be delighted to tell you about their long term, and tits-neutral involvement with permit aircraft.
G
With your experience, you'd be well placed to become a check/test pilot with PFA or BMAA, and if you've got formal engineering qualifications, an inspector as well.
Don't believe me? take a short drive East to Old Sarum, where you can meet Leslie (airfield manager, examiner, and long term member of both organisations) or Fiona (Chief Instructor and Chief Engineer of the Shadow school there, BMAA instructor, BMAA and PFA inspector). I'm sure both would, if they've the time (turn up when the weather's crap!) be delighted to tell you about their long term, and tits-neutral involvement with permit aircraft.
G
Nope, but I've seen one crash as well. Landed behind me at Compton Abbas in 10-15kn Southerly (sporting in anything at CA), lost control just after touchdown, veered off the runway and through the hedge.
G
G
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Enniskillen
Age: 67
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is there anyone who has not seen a Europa crash??
I saw one veer of the runway over here, thankfully not much damage and no one hurt. again a high time pilot. Another pilot from here had one of the first to be built and it had a couple of bumps.
I heard the same story as Dawn, "they will fly before they can be controlled", sounds a bit scary, I prefer to tell the aircraft what to do.
Also noticed the accident reports at about 4 per SRG issue, keeping up with the Jabaru.
However the Ulster Flying Club have managed to crash about six of their brand new C172s over the last few years, "drivers perhaps"
I saw one veer of the runway over here, thankfully not much damage and no one hurt. again a high time pilot. Another pilot from here had one of the first to be built and it had a couple of bumps.
I heard the same story as Dawn, "they will fly before they can be controlled", sounds a bit scary, I prefer to tell the aircraft what to do.
Also noticed the accident reports at about 4 per SRG issue, keeping up with the Jabaru.
However the Ulster Flying Club have managed to crash about six of their brand new C172s over the last few years, "drivers perhaps"
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: N E England
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pinga
I think you will find most people here are very reasonable with a lot of experience to share. Some are a bit pissed off with the association, some of us were members of it for years.
Did you ever give us your thoughts about the letter from Lord Trefgarne?
Or is he just a noisy moran like me?
Dawn,
It would almost make me want to register on the BB again, but I think "they" would refuse me a 5 star rating.
John
I think you will find most people here are very reasonable with a lot of experience to share. Some are a bit pissed off with the association, some of us were members of it for years.
Did you ever give us your thoughts about the letter from Lord Trefgarne?
Or is he just a noisy moran like me?
Dawn,
It would almost make me want to register on the BB again, but I think "they" would refuse me a 5 star rating.
John
Guest
Posts: n/a
No, you are right; I didn't give you an opinion on the letter from Lord Trefgarne did I!
The point I have been trying to get over is that the PFA is an association and all members should make a deliberate effort to bring about constructive change NOT destructive change. Public bickering and tantrums do nothing to improve the PFA or its image. What are YOU going to do to bring about CONSTRUCTIVE change? The PFA is an association not a dictatorship and the members can bring about a change. My whole point is that there is a right way and a wrong way of doing just that.
The point I have been trying to get over is that the PFA is an association and all members should make a deliberate effort to bring about constructive change NOT destructive change. Public bickering and tantrums do nothing to improve the PFA or its image. What are YOU going to do to bring about CONSTRUCTIVE change? The PFA is an association not a dictatorship and the members can bring about a change. My whole point is that there is a right way and a wrong way of doing just that.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Enniskillen
Age: 67
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pinga
I think John's point is that the EC and management have become a tight little clan and they run meetings, even the AGM in a way to avoid anyone who would like to voice a different opinion having a proper say.
I know from experience that when I tried to ask for an explaination queitly through the office, I was fobbed off. At that time in October 03 when we were seeking "fair play" for our friend George Adams we had no option but to go to the BB.
I see you still do not say if Lord Trefgarne is a noisy moran or not
Tony
I think John's point is that the EC and management have become a tight little clan and they run meetings, even the AGM in a way to avoid anyone who would like to voice a different opinion having a proper say.
I know from experience that when I tried to ask for an explaination queitly through the office, I was fobbed off. At that time in October 03 when we were seeking "fair play" for our friend George Adams we had no option but to go to the BB.
I see you still do not say if Lord Trefgarne is a noisy moran or not
Tony
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Devon
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Tony,
Where can you fly to in N ireland, have had some bad experiences there last year.
EGAD: Very hostile and unhelpful, some bitch kepy on about Special Branch even though we had that all sorted by fax prior. I think it was the CFI who was a bit of a nasty bastard also, made us move our aircraft after it was parked under the instructions from the a/g radio. Not much of a welcome compaired to a few years ago.
EGAC: Cost about £60 landing, parking one night.
EGAA: Woodgate, God do you have to bribe the re-fuelers to leave their coffee. Very nice and helpful ATC though.
EGAE: Bastards all :- ATC, Security, Staff in shop, it'll be a cold day in hell before I'm back.
I have written to complain where I thought it was necessary.
So where do you fly from.
Dawn.
Where can you fly to in N ireland, have had some bad experiences there last year.
EGAD: Very hostile and unhelpful, some bitch kepy on about Special Branch even though we had that all sorted by fax prior. I think it was the CFI who was a bit of a nasty bastard also, made us move our aircraft after it was parked under the instructions from the a/g radio. Not much of a welcome compaired to a few years ago.
EGAC: Cost about £60 landing, parking one night.
EGAA: Woodgate, God do you have to bribe the re-fuelers to leave their coffee. Very nice and helpful ATC though.
EGAE: Bastards all :- ATC, Security, Staff in shop, it'll be a cold day in hell before I'm back.
I have written to complain where I thought it was necessary.
So where do you fly from.
Dawn.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Enniskillen
Age: 67
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to hear about that Dawn.
Newtownards (EGAD) would tend to agree. Hope this will change soon.
Belfast City (EGAC) not really interested in GA
Aldergrove (EGAA) I usually fly from there will pass on your post to Woogate re fuel. and ATC always like a pat on the back.
City of Derry (EGAE) Also fly form there, and it can be a bit hit and miss with ATC, Security and staff, please write to the operations manager.
The good news is Eniskillen (EGAB) is re-opening soon and hopefully will be more GA friendly.
I also fly from a farm strip at home will email you details about local private strips, most are for STOL aircraft though.
Just in case you all think we are wandering, there are a lot of PFA members and aircraft in N Ireland, most are based at private strips and all are very friendly.
Tony
Newtownards (EGAD) would tend to agree. Hope this will change soon.
Belfast City (EGAC) not really interested in GA
Aldergrove (EGAA) I usually fly from there will pass on your post to Woogate re fuel. and ATC always like a pat on the back.
City of Derry (EGAE) Also fly form there, and it can be a bit hit and miss with ATC, Security and staff, please write to the operations manager.
The good news is Eniskillen (EGAB) is re-opening soon and hopefully will be more GA friendly.
I also fly from a farm strip at home will email you details about local private strips, most are for STOL aircraft though.
Just in case you all think we are wandering, there are a lot of PFA members and aircraft in N Ireland, most are based at private strips and all are very friendly.
Tony
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Spain
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PFA VAC Turweston 17/04/2004
Greetings all
Now have I got this wrong?
The EC of the PFA ,against the instincts of the majority of its members moved from Shoreham(user friendly since Bleriot)
to Turweston where the leader of the local council and a few cohorts are hell bent on restricting and no doubt closing the field down?
I truly believe that they have lost the plot.
Rgds. FPG (a PFA member,reluctantly)
Now have I got this wrong?
The EC of the PFA ,against the instincts of the majority of its members moved from Shoreham(user friendly since Bleriot)
to Turweston where the leader of the local council and a few cohorts are hell bent on restricting and no doubt closing the field down?
I truly believe that they have lost the plot.
Rgds. FPG (a PFA member,reluctantly)