BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions IV
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Sorry to disagree.
Union are required to have records available for inspection but have apparently confirmed that:
We have been told by the branch secretary that the accounts you are seeking are not available.........
Union are in default now, there is no question about it if they have confirmed the above.
I think you are confusing the period of 28 days that the Union has to produce the available records for inspection with the separate need to have the records available. Note that the requirement for availability of the records is not qualified in any respect - without qualification the requirement is absolute. Look at the words.
Clause 29 is headed:Duty to keep records available for inspection.
Clause 30 is headed:Right of access to accounting records.
Union are required to have records available for inspection but have apparently confirmed that:
We have been told by the branch secretary that the accounts you are seeking are not available.........
Union are in default now, there is no question about it if they have confirmed the above.
I think you are confusing the period of 28 days that the Union has to produce the available records for inspection with the separate need to have the records available. Note that the requirement for availability of the records is not qualified in any respect - without qualification the requirement is absolute. Look at the words.
Clause 29 is headed:Duty to keep records available for inspection.
Clause 30 is headed:Right of access to accounting records.
Last edited by mrpony; 3rd Mar 2011 at 12:16.
Having used a number of solicitors and barristers in the world of Employee Relations, Hipennine is right. Ones who know their way through Employment law properly are rare. Ones who know the issues connected with TU and TU disclosure law are even more rare.
There are very few TU disclosure cases.
Further, in much of employment law, many of the individuals and firms that call themselves either "lawyers" or "advocates" are not actually solicitors.
A solicitor has to be 1. Qualified, 2. Admitted and 3. Practising.
The term "lawyer" has no legal meaning in the UK. I'm a lawyer - you are a lawyer.
If I were pursuing Unite, bassa and its "Auditors" I would follow the letter of the law, (as described above) and then pursue the auditors. Use paper letters with proof of posting, collect copies of everything, and then go for the auditors - using The Sun or some other reputable media firm as your helper.
There are very few TU disclosure cases.
Further, in much of employment law, many of the individuals and firms that call themselves either "lawyers" or "advocates" are not actually solicitors.
A solicitor has to be 1. Qualified, 2. Admitted and 3. Practising.
The term "lawyer" has no legal meaning in the UK. I'm a lawyer - you are a lawyer.
If I were pursuing Unite, bassa and its "Auditors" I would follow the letter of the law, (as described above) and then pursue the auditors. Use paper letters with proof of posting, collect copies of everything, and then go for the auditors - using The Sun or some other reputable media firm as your helper.
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to whom it may concern - BASSA Accounts
Further to the above:
BASSAswitch should avail themselves immediately of the power of the Certification Officer as described in clauses 37A and 37B of the Act.
37A
(1)The Certification Officer may at any time, if he thinks there is good reason to do so, give directions to a trade union, or a branch or section of a trade union, requiring it to produce such relevant documents as may be specified in the directions; and the documents shall be produced at such time and place as may be so specified.
In subsections (1) and (2) “relevant documents”, in relation to a trade union or a branch or section of a trade union, means accounting documents, and documents of any other description, which may be relevant in considering the financial affairs of the trade union.
37B
(1)The Certification Officer may appoint one or more members of his staff or other persons as an inspector or inspectors to investigate the financial affairs of a trade union and to report on them in such manner as he may direct.
(2)The Certification Officer may only make such an appointment if it appears to him that there are circumstances suggesting—
(c)that the trade union has failed to comply with any duty imposed on it by this Act in relation to its financial affairs
If Unite/Bassa has failed to keep accounting records available in accordance with the Act as described earlier by myself and others then it has given good reason for invoking 37A or circumstances suggesting failure to comply as per 37B. If it hasn't, no harm is done.
Slam dunk.
BASSAswitch should avail themselves immediately of the power of the Certification Officer as described in clauses 37A and 37B of the Act.
37A
(1)The Certification Officer may at any time, if he thinks there is good reason to do so, give directions to a trade union, or a branch or section of a trade union, requiring it to produce such relevant documents as may be specified in the directions; and the documents shall be produced at such time and place as may be so specified.
In subsections (1) and (2) “relevant documents”, in relation to a trade union or a branch or section of a trade union, means accounting documents, and documents of any other description, which may be relevant in considering the financial affairs of the trade union.
37B
(1)The Certification Officer may appoint one or more members of his staff or other persons as an inspector or inspectors to investigate the financial affairs of a trade union and to report on them in such manner as he may direct.
(2)The Certification Officer may only make such an appointment if it appears to him that there are circumstances suggesting—
(c)that the trade union has failed to comply with any duty imposed on it by this Act in relation to its financial affairs
If Unite/Bassa has failed to keep accounting records available in accordance with the Act as described earlier by myself and others then it has given good reason for invoking 37A or circumstances suggesting failure to comply as per 37B. If it hasn't, no harm is done.
Slam dunk.
Last edited by mrpony; 3rd Mar 2011 at 12:20.
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I don't know why that would be relevant?
As far as I can make out, if the statement that the accounts are not available has been made, the Union has made it clear that it is not complying with the Act. It isn't necessary for questions like why or when or how - this would have been the case if the request had been answered with something like 'we are establishing the availability of these documents and will revert back to you'.
I'm not going to go any further with this as I am already boring myself so must be boring others.
In researching this I got through to the Certification Officer's web site tab 'complaints':
Certification Officer - Complaints
A complaint can be made anonymously at the discretion of the CO.
PS In fact anyone can make a complaint in accordance with the document headed Financial irregularities here at tab 'forms and guidance':
Certification Officer - Guidance & Forms
I'm not inclined to but anyone could if they have grounds to believe that Union is not complying with the ACT. Look:
WHO CAN COMPLAIN
A member of a trade union or employers' association may tell the Certification Officer
of circumstances suggesting one or more of the situations described above. However,
the Certification Officer can also receive approaches from any other source and will
consider these on their merits. In addition Certification Office staff will watch out for
references in the media to situations which suggest that the relevant set of
circumstances exist in the financial affairs of either a trade union or an employers'
association.
Right that's enough of that.
As far as I can make out, if the statement that the accounts are not available has been made, the Union has made it clear that it is not complying with the Act. It isn't necessary for questions like why or when or how - this would have been the case if the request had been answered with something like 'we are establishing the availability of these documents and will revert back to you'.
I'm not going to go any further with this as I am already boring myself so must be boring others.
In researching this I got through to the Certification Officer's web site tab 'complaints':
Certification Officer - Complaints
A complaint can be made anonymously at the discretion of the CO.
PS In fact anyone can make a complaint in accordance with the document headed Financial irregularities here at tab 'forms and guidance':
Certification Officer - Guidance & Forms
I'm not inclined to but anyone could if they have grounds to believe that Union is not complying with the ACT. Look:
WHO CAN COMPLAIN
A member of a trade union or employers' association may tell the Certification Officer
of circumstances suggesting one or more of the situations described above. However,
the Certification Officer can also receive approaches from any other source and will
consider these on their merits. In addition Certification Office staff will watch out for
references in the media to situations which suggest that the relevant set of
circumstances exist in the financial affairs of either a trade union or an employers'
association.
Right that's enough of that.
Last edited by mrpony; 3rd Mar 2011 at 12:19.
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And finally.
Yes it is of course a reasonable question. I thought, wrongly, that you were implying that the question was a necessary one; that the information request needed to be pursued more vigorously before making a complaint. But you weren't implying anything.
I would ask all the questions you probably would unless I had an urgent need to get to grips with Bassa's finances in which case I would go straight for the jugular via a complaint to the CO.
Yes it is of course a reasonable question. I thought, wrongly, that you were implying that the question was a necessary one; that the information request needed to be pursued more vigorously before making a complaint. But you weren't implying anything.
I would ask all the questions you probably would unless I had an urgent need to get to grips with Bassa's finances in which case I would go straight for the jugular via a complaint to the CO.
Last edited by mrpony; 2nd Mar 2011 at 16:15.
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It is a difficult point for me. I agree with the Bassa supporters that BA has been overtly and covertly forceful in it's dealings, but if it turns out that Bassa finances are not squared off, then the individuals concerned deserve all they get.
However, if when asked formally (courts or CO), the accounts are fine, then I will not be holding my breath for the flood of apologies on here.
My heart is hoping that pprune will have to find another approach to Bassa bash, but my head................
However, if when asked formally (courts or CO), the accounts are fine, then I will not be holding my breath for the flood of apologies on here.
My heart is hoping that pprune will have to find another approach to Bassa bash, but my head................
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It's the lack of accountability that is the real problem. If it turns out that BASSA have been guilty of protectiveness rather than obfuscation I'll happily grovel. It wouldn't be the first time.
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It is a difficult point for me. I agree with the Bassa supporters that BA has been overtly and covertly forceful in it's dealings, but if it turns out that Bassa finances are not squared off, then the individuals concerned deserve all they get.
However, if when asked formally (courts or CO), the accounts are fine, then I will not be holding my breath for the flood of apologies on here.
My heart is hoping that pprune will have to find another approach to Bassa bash, but my head................
However, if when asked formally (courts or CO), the accounts are fine, then I will not be holding my breath for the flood of apologies on here.
My heart is hoping that pprune will have to find another approach to Bassa bash, but my head................
For example, I'd like to know how much, if any, of the Bedfont bar bill was paid by BASSA, and on whom it was spent.
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Chico G
For example, I'd like to know how much, if any, of the Bedfont bar bill was paid by BASSA, and on whom it was spent
Most importantly, I want to make very clear I'm not saying there are any fiddles going on, just where are the accounts for the members to see. Over to you Bassawitch
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I would be very surprised indeed if the accounts released by BASSA gave anything more than a high level consolidated view.
The issue is not that anyone believes there has been any fraud – there is no evidence or even hearsay which supports that position.
The reason why it’s important for BASSA to release its accounts is to demonstrate:
If releasing such information prompts further enquiries it is for the membership as a whole to ask more questions. After all, as we are continually told, “BASSA is run by and for its membership”.
Many BASSA members have no concept of the large budget (approx £1.5m-£2m per annum) collected by BASSA, don’t know how much the Reps and Branch Secretary get paid/take as fees and have no ability to influence or see how any of this gets spent; by any measure that is appalling.
An individual BASSA member/former member should not have to resort to potentially costly legal avenues to extract information; the requirements of the legislation are clear, and Unite itself should support its own members and former members in facilitating access – there is at this stage no need to involve “professionals”. Its auditors also have a serious professional responsibility to ensure Unite and BASSA comply with legislation.
The possible creation of “BASSA Ltd.” is also something which should be brought to members’ attention, if indeed it is a connected entity, as well as the similarly opaque accounting of CrewDefence, both of which may not be covered by the legislation.
Beyond the issue of the accounts, there is also the matter of the legal requirement to hold regular Branch Elections, every five years, contained within section 46-53 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1992 (except in cases where the election is uncontested, though the process which led to the “show of hands” is not clear to me).
Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992
That is a more complex area for which some form of legal advice might be helpful; nonetheless before contesting the Branch elections, the first stage should be release of the historic accounts, as required by the legislation.
If indeed it is proven that the BASSA Branch Committee Elections were not properly held (the need to hold another election being overridden by a show of hands at a meeting of under 1000 of the 9,000+ membership) then that is most serious, as the officers are effectively receiving their income without complying with the requirement to hold a proper election.
It still concerns, but doesn't surprise, me that there is such a lack of interest on the part of BASSA members on these matters.
The issue is not that anyone believes there has been any fraud – there is no evidence or even hearsay which supports that position.
The reason why it’s important for BASSA to release its accounts is to demonstrate:
1. that proper records are indeed being kept
2. compliance with the law
3. transparency to its membership (and former membership)
4. ensure the membership understand the size of the budget and, at a high level (including remuneration of officers), where the money is going
2. compliance with the law
3. transparency to its membership (and former membership)
4. ensure the membership understand the size of the budget and, at a high level (including remuneration of officers), where the money is going
If releasing such information prompts further enquiries it is for the membership as a whole to ask more questions. After all, as we are continually told, “BASSA is run by and for its membership”.
Many BASSA members have no concept of the large budget (approx £1.5m-£2m per annum) collected by BASSA, don’t know how much the Reps and Branch Secretary get paid/take as fees and have no ability to influence or see how any of this gets spent; by any measure that is appalling.
An individual BASSA member/former member should not have to resort to potentially costly legal avenues to extract information; the requirements of the legislation are clear, and Unite itself should support its own members and former members in facilitating access – there is at this stage no need to involve “professionals”. Its auditors also have a serious professional responsibility to ensure Unite and BASSA comply with legislation.
The possible creation of “BASSA Ltd.” is also something which should be brought to members’ attention, if indeed it is a connected entity, as well as the similarly opaque accounting of CrewDefence, both of which may not be covered by the legislation.
Beyond the issue of the accounts, there is also the matter of the legal requirement to hold regular Branch Elections, every five years, contained within section 46-53 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1992 (except in cases where the election is uncontested, though the process which led to the “show of hands” is not clear to me).
Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992
That is a more complex area for which some form of legal advice might be helpful; nonetheless before contesting the Branch elections, the first stage should be release of the historic accounts, as required by the legislation.
If indeed it is proven that the BASSA Branch Committee Elections were not properly held (the need to hold another election being overridden by a show of hands at a meeting of under 1000 of the 9,000+ membership) then that is most serious, as the officers are effectively receiving their income without complying with the requirement to hold a proper election.
It still concerns, but doesn't surprise, me that there is such a lack of interest on the part of BASSA members on these matters.
What management would allow this???
What management would allow this???
When I go in to a phone shop to buy a phone, or when I go in to a tv shop to buy a tv, I expect to speak to a shop person who knows what they are talking about,and who is keen to meet my needs.
I do not want to be served by the person who has chosen to sell tvs due to their "seniority". That's about the last person I want to be serving me.
Over in the other place, the Crew are pointing out that in "who decides where I work on the plane" debate, apparently bassa and seniority decide.
That is a disgrace.
No-one wants to work in Club, (why??? Perhaps it involves doing some work?) - so the temps, VCC, and lowest service staff "end up" in Club.
BA - what are you thinking about??? Club is an extremely expensive product. To staff it with those who get the duties that no-one wants to do is crazy.
The CSDs must be instructed to allocate tasks to maximise customer service - not to satisfy bassa...................
When I go in to a phone shop to buy a phone, or when I go in to a tv shop to buy a tv, I expect to speak to a shop person who knows what they are talking about,and who is keen to meet my needs.
I do not want to be served by the person who has chosen to sell tvs due to their "seniority". That's about the last person I want to be serving me.
Over in the other place, the Crew are pointing out that in "who decides where I work on the plane" debate, apparently bassa and seniority decide.
That is a disgrace.
No-one wants to work in Club, (why??? Perhaps it involves doing some work?) - so the temps, VCC, and lowest service staff "end up" in Club.
BA - what are you thinking about??? Club is an extremely expensive product. To staff it with those who get the duties that no-one wants to do is crazy.
The CSDs must be instructed to allocate tasks to maximise customer service - not to satisfy bassa...................
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@ Ancient Observer ... indeed, and I was wondering when that CC topic would be raised over here!
It certainly offers a partial explanation for the marked variability of service standards in CW. Perhaps the popularity of working in WT+/WT is related to the simpler "beef or chicken ... here's your foil dish" style of service? Minimum work for those on the highest rates of pay, due to their seniority?
There are a couple of FlyerTalk threads going at the moment on that very subject ... great crew in CW in one direction, and poor going the other way. For SLF paying premium prices for premium cabins, it seems bizarre [but typical] that the least senior/experienced staff aren't providing services there.
It certainly offers a partial explanation for the marked variability of service standards in CW. Perhaps the popularity of working in WT+/WT is related to the simpler "beef or chicken ... here's your foil dish" style of service? Minimum work for those on the highest rates of pay, due to their seniority?
There are a couple of FlyerTalk threads going at the moment on that very subject ... great crew in CW in one direction, and poor going the other way. For SLF paying premium prices for premium cabins, it seems bizarre [but typical] that the least senior/experienced staff aren't providing services there.
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I think you are both twisting what has been said.
The reason some crew choose not to work in Club is because it is not a good product at the moment.
All the worldwide crew are experienced, so even if a CSD was allocating positions, it would make no difference. BA want good crew across all the cabins and in most cases that is what you get. Making someone work in Club who loves to work in World Traveller and visa verse, someone who loves Club work in Traveller makes no sense. There are literally thousands of crew ( there must be over 7000 or more on Worldwide) and a CSD is likely to have only flown with a handful before so would have no idea of which crew are good in which cabin.
When I was on Worldwide the club cabin was always a very popular place to work but over the last few years this new service has been introduced and as I have said, I am sure it will get revamped very soon.. It is because they feel that the offering is not as good as it could be that some crew might avoid it, not for any other reason. Seniority varies wildly from flight to flight so people invariably work in all cabins across a full month of work.
Anyway, only a few posts ago some of you were saying that you WANTED to be served by the younger crew, obviously the LESS senior you are the more likely you are to be young!! So you should be happy! No!!Or is it just that some of you will never be happy!!! Just joking!!
Hopes that helps you understand.
These are my own views and I do not speak on behalf of BA
The reason some crew choose not to work in Club is because it is not a good product at the moment.
All the worldwide crew are experienced, so even if a CSD was allocating positions, it would make no difference. BA want good crew across all the cabins and in most cases that is what you get. Making someone work in Club who loves to work in World Traveller and visa verse, someone who loves Club work in Traveller makes no sense. There are literally thousands of crew ( there must be over 7000 or more on Worldwide) and a CSD is likely to have only flown with a handful before so would have no idea of which crew are good in which cabin.
When I was on Worldwide the club cabin was always a very popular place to work but over the last few years this new service has been introduced and as I have said, I am sure it will get revamped very soon.. It is because they feel that the offering is not as good as it could be that some crew might avoid it, not for any other reason. Seniority varies wildly from flight to flight so people invariably work in all cabins across a full month of work.
Anyway, only a few posts ago some of you were saying that you WANTED to be served by the younger crew, obviously the LESS senior you are the more likely you are to be young!! So you should be happy! No!!Or is it just that some of you will never be happy!!! Just joking!!
Hopes that helps you understand.
These are my own views and I do not speak on behalf of BA
Last edited by Betty girl; 3rd Mar 2011 at 11:48.
Betty Girl,
I do not like to disagree with you as I like and respect your opinions on both threads. However, from a customer service perspective I would suggest that your reply is both completely normal/typical of those I met in Aviation, and is wrong. It is not that you, personally, are wrong, it is that Aviation is way behind the game on measuring and improving customer service.
Service standards, and the measurement of those standards, is an area where the know-how has moved on massively over the last 10 years.
Some retailers and others providing services can measure the contribution that everyone in the team makes - and use those measures as predictors of profitability, or whatever the targets are.
Even old fuddy-duddy corporates like BP can measure the team leaders' impact on a team, and how that will impact whatever the key metrics are.
BA's methods of measuring Customer Service are out of date and are too dependent on whoever hands out the forms.
I do hope that BA fix this whole area soonest.
I would go on and on about this...................but I'd better not!
I do not like to disagree with you as I like and respect your opinions on both threads. However, from a customer service perspective I would suggest that your reply is both completely normal/typical of those I met in Aviation, and is wrong. It is not that you, personally, are wrong, it is that Aviation is way behind the game on measuring and improving customer service.
Service standards, and the measurement of those standards, is an area where the know-how has moved on massively over the last 10 years.
Some retailers and others providing services can measure the contribution that everyone in the team makes - and use those measures as predictors of profitability, or whatever the targets are.
Even old fuddy-duddy corporates like BP can measure the team leaders' impact on a team, and how that will impact whatever the key metrics are.
BA's methods of measuring Customer Service are out of date and are too dependent on whoever hands out the forms.
I do hope that BA fix this whole area soonest.
I would go on and on about this...................but I'd better not!