BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions IV
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GB
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It’s a shame Lightbulbs says such things, as many of his/her posts are relatively balanced and well reasoned. There’s nothing wrong with holding a contrary view on something, as long as you can back it up.
The poster above sets out a perfectly valid personal perspective; it may not be PC, but it is a passenger perspective. The age of crew isn’t really the issue, though it is the one you seized on, Lightbulbs. The issue is that many new airlines offer a terrific product, at a great price and many of these airlines’ international crew do indeed work considerably harder for less, and do so willingly. This is the real threat to your job, not BA Management and one you hear not one jot of discussion about by those aligning themselves with BASSA. It is not BA Management who are the enemy here.
Do I think BA should treat its crew as Emirates treats its crew? No.
But as a passenger, I need BA to offer a competitively priced, innovative product, with new aircraft (some are on the way!), great people, and enough available to spend on the passenger experience (bussing gates/AVOD which works/decent amenity kit/great lounges and above all, a smile); increasingly my experience on longhaul is that some BA crew are very much not happy to be there, and make that position quite clearly known to me as a passenger.
That is neither good for me or good for BA.
In my view, this is largely to do with the divisive and unrealistic expectations BASSA has nurtured amongst cabin crew; not mainly about salary or T&CS, though they have done that, but about cabin crew’s role in “managing” the airline and also about the means by which product improvements can be brought about.
BASSA contends that by maintaining cabin crew costs at 1990s levels, the passenger experience will improve. In fact, there is no correlation between wages and service delivered. There is a very high correlation between unrealistic expectations and a bad attitude in the workplace. BA has a finite income source, and cabin crew do indeed create a loyalty – not least amongst me personally – which keep me coming back. But that loyalty should not be overestimated.
If income is finite and costs elsewhere are increasing, a structural re-alignment is required; BA has tried very hard to achieve this with minimal impact on the cabin crew community via part time working, VR and other “passive” means. Costs need to come down, or there simply won’t be the cash out there to invest in improved “hard product” – BA was lucky it invested in flat beds a decade ahead of most other carriers, and crew have benefited from this foresight as the hard product has kept passengers coming back.
The bottom line is that other airlines now offer an almost equivalent, if not better, hard product and if I can cocoon myself with electronic check in, a decent lounge, jetway boarding, a flat bed, decent AVOD/laptop power and food cooked in a steam oven with three or four drinks passes, most passengers are happy most of the time. They can offer this at a price which wither undercuts or is competitive with BA.
There does seem to be a perspective amongst many Union members that dissention is a crime, and that anyone who holds an opposing view must either be an employee/former employee/closely connected person of BA Management. I am none of these, never have been. Nonetheless the BASSA “forum lice” are happy to repeatedly accuse posters such as myself with a credible, carefully considered perspective as being part of BA Management/Burke Group, simply for setting out the position as we see it, and referencing the position usually with either impartial “horse’s mouth” information or using BASSA/Unite sources to demonstrate the truth of the matter.
The truth is, they are scared to read some of what is posted, for it exposes their intellectual vacuity and demonstrates the immorality of some of what they have espoused..
In order for the Union’s view to be granted the respect it expects, it is incumbent on those supporting the Union position to grant the same respect to others who support a different view even if that view may be uncomfortable for them to read.
Today will indeed be an interesting day.
The poster above sets out a perfectly valid personal perspective; it may not be PC, but it is a passenger perspective. The age of crew isn’t really the issue, though it is the one you seized on, Lightbulbs. The issue is that many new airlines offer a terrific product, at a great price and many of these airlines’ international crew do indeed work considerably harder for less, and do so willingly. This is the real threat to your job, not BA Management and one you hear not one jot of discussion about by those aligning themselves with BASSA. It is not BA Management who are the enemy here.
Do I think BA should treat its crew as Emirates treats its crew? No.
But as a passenger, I need BA to offer a competitively priced, innovative product, with new aircraft (some are on the way!), great people, and enough available to spend on the passenger experience (bussing gates/AVOD which works/decent amenity kit/great lounges and above all, a smile); increasingly my experience on longhaul is that some BA crew are very much not happy to be there, and make that position quite clearly known to me as a passenger.
That is neither good for me or good for BA.
In my view, this is largely to do with the divisive and unrealistic expectations BASSA has nurtured amongst cabin crew; not mainly about salary or T&CS, though they have done that, but about cabin crew’s role in “managing” the airline and also about the means by which product improvements can be brought about.
BASSA contends that by maintaining cabin crew costs at 1990s levels, the passenger experience will improve. In fact, there is no correlation between wages and service delivered. There is a very high correlation between unrealistic expectations and a bad attitude in the workplace. BA has a finite income source, and cabin crew do indeed create a loyalty – not least amongst me personally – which keep me coming back. But that loyalty should not be overestimated.
If income is finite and costs elsewhere are increasing, a structural re-alignment is required; BA has tried very hard to achieve this with minimal impact on the cabin crew community via part time working, VR and other “passive” means. Costs need to come down, or there simply won’t be the cash out there to invest in improved “hard product” – BA was lucky it invested in flat beds a decade ahead of most other carriers, and crew have benefited from this foresight as the hard product has kept passengers coming back.
The bottom line is that other airlines now offer an almost equivalent, if not better, hard product and if I can cocoon myself with electronic check in, a decent lounge, jetway boarding, a flat bed, decent AVOD/laptop power and food cooked in a steam oven with three or four drinks passes, most passengers are happy most of the time. They can offer this at a price which wither undercuts or is competitive with BA.
There does seem to be a perspective amongst many Union members that dissention is a crime, and that anyone who holds an opposing view must either be an employee/former employee/closely connected person of BA Management. I am none of these, never have been. Nonetheless the BASSA “forum lice” are happy to repeatedly accuse posters such as myself with a credible, carefully considered perspective as being part of BA Management/Burke Group, simply for setting out the position as we see it, and referencing the position usually with either impartial “horse’s mouth” information or using BASSA/Unite sources to demonstrate the truth of the matter.
The truth is, they are scared to read some of what is posted, for it exposes their intellectual vacuity and demonstrates the immorality of some of what they have espoused..
In order for the Union’s view to be granted the respect it expects, it is incumbent on those supporting the Union position to grant the same respect to others who support a different view even if that view may be uncomfortable for them to read.
Today will indeed be an interesting day.
Is the West wrong?
Litebulbs took exception to a passenger's impression of service.
"....young, energised vs matronly...."
There are many things different in both the Pacific World (Asia) and the Southern Med world. Attitudes to age are better in Asia - but not due to stuff about "human rights". ..............but due to Respect.
Arguably, looking across the world, there is no such thing as "human rights". All humans can expect is "socially defined rights for our people". (Or more accurately, job creation for lawyers).
I first travelled routinely to Asia in 1989. In the UK, that was in the days of State monopolies, and weeks of waiting for a phone line.
In places like Hong Kong, South Korea and Singapore services worked.
They did not have "democracy" - and it was carefully explained to me that they did not want it. They wanted the "right" to improve their standard of living. They did not want the right to vote. They wanted economic freedom and increased incomes. Governments such as Lee Kwan Yew's delivered.
In brief - Litebulbs has a socially defined right to comment, and a socially defined right to a view about "age".
Don't expect that others in the world have the same view.
..............and it is those others in the world that will eventually, (in the long run) bankrupt BA and the other legacy carriers, as most customers prefer better service to employee rights.
"....young, energised vs matronly...."
There are many things different in both the Pacific World (Asia) and the Southern Med world. Attitudes to age are better in Asia - but not due to stuff about "human rights". ..............but due to Respect.
Arguably, looking across the world, there is no such thing as "human rights". All humans can expect is "socially defined rights for our people". (Or more accurately, job creation for lawyers).
I first travelled routinely to Asia in 1989. In the UK, that was in the days of State monopolies, and weeks of waiting for a phone line.
In places like Hong Kong, South Korea and Singapore services worked.
They did not have "democracy" - and it was carefully explained to me that they did not want it. They wanted the "right" to improve their standard of living. They did not want the right to vote. They wanted economic freedom and increased incomes. Governments such as Lee Kwan Yew's delivered.
In brief - Litebulbs has a socially defined right to comment, and a socially defined right to a view about "age".
Don't expect that others in the world have the same view.
..............and it is those others in the world that will eventually, (in the long run) bankrupt BA and the other legacy carriers, as most customers prefer better service to employee rights.
BASSA contends that by maintaining cabin crew costs at 1990s levels, the passenger experience will improve.
The final straw was a sector from SIN to LHR where our seating allocation was messed up at check in. Once on board we were served by CC who clearly had no interest in customer service at all. Once dinner was out of the way, it was lights out and fend for yourselves as no crew were to be seen until we were well over northern Europe when breakfast was brought round. Not served but delivered three high at the end of each block of seats for us to help ouselves. Reading through these two threads for the last couple of years I am now getting some understanding of why we so badly served on that flight.
I have always worked on the principle that if you are not happy in a job then you have probably chosen the wrong career. Time to move on for some of them I think.
As an aside, does anyone else find it amusing when BASSA supporters claim to be dismayed about the decline of "product" offered to passengers and lay the blame squarely on management? Weren't BASSA the the ones who blocked hot towels in WT Plus by claiming that an extra crew member was required for that onerous task?
Paxing All Over The World
pencisely
I think this question is more usually taken in the 'Brickbats' thread, so I shall answer briefly - not least as I repeat myself for regular readers ...
I am certain (as near as can be stated) that the mountain cannot be climbed. BA is in the last phase of it's life. You cannot undo 90 + years of company history, behaviour, culture etc. I should be fascinated to hear of any other large, international company that has recovered their service and profitability from this low ebb. For the record, I have never worked in the airline world.
On the topic of strikes, my sister-in-law and I were discussing long haul trips and I spoke of one planned for autumn of 2012 and that I will use BA (redemption flight) she said, "Would you book them with all those strikes?" So, despite that this dispute fizzling out, folks still think that BA is unreliable. Recover from this?
This is the scale of the mountain BA have to climb, the management know it but BASSA are still of the belief that they are the custodians of the premier airline service. Time to wake up, the world has moved on and BA need to move with it and cannot possibly do it with the old BASSA millstone around its neck.
I am certain (as near as can be stated) that the mountain cannot be climbed. BA is in the last phase of it's life. You cannot undo 90 + years of company history, behaviour, culture etc. I should be fascinated to hear of any other large, international company that has recovered their service and profitability from this low ebb. For the record, I have never worked in the airline world.
On the topic of strikes, my sister-in-law and I were discussing long haul trips and I spoke of one planned for autumn of 2012 and that I will use BA (redemption flight) she said, "Would you book them with all those strikes?" So, despite that this dispute fizzling out, folks still think that BA is unreliable. Recover from this?
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lisbon
Age: 51
Posts: 209
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For the benefit of those huffing and puffing about Litebulb's (one in particular, who seems a little pompous, or should I say gassy?)
I think, knowing Litebulb's style, it is likely that he is referring indirectly to the Mak and Ors v BA tribunal last week, which of course BA lost, as well as a raft of other UK legislation.
Therefore 'young and energetic' is not an option available to BA, but very much so to EK, who comply with different regulations - bravo to Ancient Observer for eloquently posting around that theme.
Now I am going again, back to the Strategic Management Society forum where there is rather more logic than in some of these posts.
Safe travels everyone.
I think, knowing Litebulb's style, it is likely that he is referring indirectly to the Mak and Ors v BA tribunal last week, which of course BA lost, as well as a raft of other UK legislation.
Therefore 'young and energetic' is not an option available to BA, but very much so to EK, who comply with different regulations - bravo to Ancient Observer for eloquently posting around that theme.
Now I am going again, back to the Strategic Management Society forum where there is rather more logic than in some of these posts.
Safe travels everyone.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: North, UK
Age: 67
Posts: 936
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With reference to the poster not being PC, having also flown on BA and EK recently I would put the experience more simplistically.
EK - Interested in making your flight a more pleasant experience.
BA - Having to deal with you is an inconvenience.
EK - Interested in making your flight a more pleasant experience.
BA - Having to deal with you is an inconvenience.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lisbon
Age: 51
Posts: 209
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
pwalhx
What you see is your truth and I'm sure it will influence your future purchases.
However, don't forget the part 'management by fear' plays behind the EK smiles; I lived and worked in the UAE for a while and the dice are loaded heavily in favour of the employer.
I don't judge the UAE, it is the way they do things there.
What you see is your truth and I'm sure it will influence your future purchases.
However, don't forget the part 'management by fear' plays behind the EK smiles; I lived and worked in the UAE for a while and the dice are loaded heavily in favour of the employer.
I don't judge the UAE, it is the way they do things there.
By way of balance, I personally think the service and food is better on BA than it is on EK, and much prefer the Club/First cabins on the BA 777's to the EK777's.
However the EK A380 is superb. I can fly First with them for less money than the BA Club World fully flex fare to the same destination.
Consequently, I now have an EK Gold card. My BA card declined to silver 2 years ago and I'm about to be demoted back to blue.
BA have to address the factors that leads them to charge so much more than their competitors. No amount of bleating by BASSA can change that.
However the EK A380 is superb. I can fly First with them for less money than the BA Club World fully flex fare to the same destination.
Consequently, I now have an EK Gold card. My BA card declined to silver 2 years ago and I'm about to be demoted back to blue.
BA have to address the factors that leads them to charge so much more than their competitors. No amount of bleating by BASSA can change that.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: AROUND AND ABOUT
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Joao,
However, don't forget the part 'management by fear' plays behind the EK smiles; I lived and worked in the UAE for a while and the dice are loaded heavily in favour of the employer
You are totally right IMO. I have spoken to a number of people who haved worked for Emirates, and certainly amongst the CC, its strictly 'managing by fear'. The problem is that with BA ( I'm CC with them), there has been NO fear at all in the past thanks to Bassa stamping thier footprint over everything. There needs to be a balance as in all things
Entaxei wrote
Firstly have to agree on everything you have said. I have known DH and LaLa for a very long time ( Hi Dunc ) and DH in particular will keep this going for ever if allowed. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if he changed the Bassa constitution again ( another show of hands at the Jockey club) to allow him to stay on beyond Nov 2011. Lets be honest 5% of Bassa's contributions into his back pocket is a nice little earner when you have 'retired' from your old job. This guy, and I know from experiance, could start a fight in an empty room. Has sadly done it for years, whether at meetings with BA, or with some of the members. He has sent a number of texts to long serving crew who have left Bassa with the simple message - cock. Charming. I could say more but don't want to give myself away. This is not character assasignation, but simply and sadly the truth. NONE of what he has done in the last 2 years has surprised me at all, whether outing crew on the Bassa forum, sending abusive texts or telling Bassa members who don't PLAY the party line to b****r off. I'm just pleased that everything I've known has now come into the public view.
As for LaLa, my bet is she will simply fly off back to California never to return. Nothing in it for her anymore past Nov.
One final question to Entexei, what do you mean by ' A Union Pension'. Surely they don't get one of those, as they are only running the branch. Happy to be put right
However, don't forget the part 'management by fear' plays behind the EK smiles; I lived and worked in the UAE for a while and the dice are loaded heavily in favour of the employer
You are totally right IMO. I have spoken to a number of people who haved worked for Emirates, and certainly amongst the CC, its strictly 'managing by fear'. The problem is that with BA ( I'm CC with them), there has been NO fear at all in the past thanks to Bassa stamping thier footprint over everything. There needs to be a balance as in all things
Entaxei wrote
Forecast - This Dispute will end around Q4/2011
Why ????
Because that is when DH & LaLa have the ability to draw their union pension - how do I know this - because DH stated this in one of his posts about 18 months ago.
He will not change anything at present except to insure that no agreement is reached - hence when Woodley issued the last offer from BA for members approval, stating that this was the best that could be negotiated - which included the caveat from BA that the offer stood good for 90 days, provided no IA was called for - DH immediately issued a call for IA, listing proposed strike dates, which led to BA withdrawing the offer.
Woodley then issued a statement that as BASSA did not agree with the offer, neither would Unite. All of which argues that BASSA is not a normal branch operation.
The reason DH does not wish to reach any agreement, is that around 2009, BASSA altered its own rule book to state that when there is a dispute on, no elections for any positions in BASSA will be held until the dispute is over, also that BASSA will have sole authority to agree a dispute. As a result neither he nor LaLa can be replaced as officers, no reps can be appointed to replace those who have left for any reason, this is why he called for volunteer unpaid reps some while ago and of course, nobody can call a motion to cancel the pensions of himself and LaLa, before they commence - nor challenge any statements made or actions taken - stalemate!!
In the meantime about the only thing that prospers are the Toma-toes.
Should anyone feel that this is being very harsh on BASSA, DH or LaLa, may I suggest that you simply get a copy of the BASSA (not Unite) regulations and branch minutes from beginning of 2009 to date and check - also read all of DH's posts on these two threads over the same period, although a number have now been deleted.
Why ????
Because that is when DH & LaLa have the ability to draw their union pension - how do I know this - because DH stated this in one of his posts about 18 months ago.
He will not change anything at present except to insure that no agreement is reached - hence when Woodley issued the last offer from BA for members approval, stating that this was the best that could be negotiated - which included the caveat from BA that the offer stood good for 90 days, provided no IA was called for - DH immediately issued a call for IA, listing proposed strike dates, which led to BA withdrawing the offer.
Woodley then issued a statement that as BASSA did not agree with the offer, neither would Unite. All of which argues that BASSA is not a normal branch operation.
The reason DH does not wish to reach any agreement, is that around 2009, BASSA altered its own rule book to state that when there is a dispute on, no elections for any positions in BASSA will be held until the dispute is over, also that BASSA will have sole authority to agree a dispute. As a result neither he nor LaLa can be replaced as officers, no reps can be appointed to replace those who have left for any reason, this is why he called for volunteer unpaid reps some while ago and of course, nobody can call a motion to cancel the pensions of himself and LaLa, before they commence - nor challenge any statements made or actions taken - stalemate!!
In the meantime about the only thing that prospers are the Toma-toes.
Should anyone feel that this is being very harsh on BASSA, DH or LaLa, may I suggest that you simply get a copy of the BASSA (not Unite) regulations and branch minutes from beginning of 2009 to date and check - also read all of DH's posts on these two threads over the same period, although a number have now been deleted.
As for LaLa, my bet is she will simply fly off back to California never to return. Nothing in it for her anymore past Nov.
One final question to Entexei, what do you mean by ' A Union Pension'. Surely they don't get one of those, as they are only running the branch. Happy to be put right
Last edited by JUAN TRIPP; 28th Feb 2011 at 12:39.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London
Posts: 208
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not content with veto-ing the hot towels in WTP, BASSA also scuppered the service levels on the London City - New York flight - BA originally wanted to have a 'dine on demand' service and pitch the offering a more of a "Club Seat, First Service" product.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SALISBURY
Age: 76
Posts: 706
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA have to address the factors that leads them to charge so much more than their competitors
Competing against EK is a very difficult task due to their ability to buy their fuel at an advantageous price when operating out of or through DXB.
Argus Global Markets average price 4th Quarter 2010:
Mideast Gulf: $761/ton
NW Europe: $788/ton
An interesting figure for BASSA members to chew over when contemplating further action is the 7-10th Feb price (the last one I've got access to):
Mideast Gulf: $901/ton
NW Europe: $939/ton
I recall BASSA bleating in the early stages of this dispute about BA's fuel hedging strategy costing the company millions in a year when prices fell. Have they anything to say on the subject now?
Last edited by Mariner9; 28th Feb 2011 at 13:26.
Can you change service levels?
Can you change service levels?
Paxboy asked whether or not service levels can be fundamentally changed.
My experience as a customer tells me that they can be changed. I'll give a number of examples where Co.s have tried.
1. The British Passport Agency. They were truly awful a few years ago. it was so bad that a number of Brit. newspapers ran campaigns against the whole agency. New management, training, and new targets changed it. Whilst they are not perfect, they are sooooo much better.
2. British Telecomms. Again, pre-privatisation and post-privatisation they were awful. You had to wait weeks for a phone line.
Back in 1986 I moved in to a flat (in the North west of UK), but I had to move out again as BT said it would take over 3 months before I got a phone line!
Again, not perfect now, and not cheap, but doing sooooo much better.
3. BA. Anyone else remember the step change in customer service around the early 90's when they ran PPF1 and PPF2? Either the CEO or the Chair attended every programme across the world.
Morale from these, and others, is that
1. The senior managers have to be Truly committed, people who are not "on board" need to be fired, and
2. The energy for the change needs to be more than the energy against the change, and
3. It is no good doing it "once". The energy for excellent customer service needs to be perpetual.
.................AND, yes, there needs to be a modest amount of fear. .........fear that if I deliver poor customer service, I will be fired.................whether I am CC or whether I am the CC Manager.
As regular readers know, I would fire about half of the BA CC managers.
Paxboy asked whether or not service levels can be fundamentally changed.
My experience as a customer tells me that they can be changed. I'll give a number of examples where Co.s have tried.
1. The British Passport Agency. They were truly awful a few years ago. it was so bad that a number of Brit. newspapers ran campaigns against the whole agency. New management, training, and new targets changed it. Whilst they are not perfect, they are sooooo much better.
2. British Telecomms. Again, pre-privatisation and post-privatisation they were awful. You had to wait weeks for a phone line.
Back in 1986 I moved in to a flat (in the North west of UK), but I had to move out again as BT said it would take over 3 months before I got a phone line!
Again, not perfect now, and not cheap, but doing sooooo much better.
3. BA. Anyone else remember the step change in customer service around the early 90's when they ran PPF1 and PPF2? Either the CEO or the Chair attended every programme across the world.
Morale from these, and others, is that
1. The senior managers have to be Truly committed, people who are not "on board" need to be fired, and
2. The energy for the change needs to be more than the energy against the change, and
3. It is no good doing it "once". The energy for excellent customer service needs to be perpetual.
.................AND, yes, there needs to be a modest amount of fear. .........fear that if I deliver poor customer service, I will be fired.................whether I am CC or whether I am the CC Manager.
As regular readers know, I would fire about half of the BA CC managers.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: AROUND AND ABOUT
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ancient Observer
.................AND, yes, there needs to be a modest amount of fear. .........fear that if I deliver poor customer service, I will be fired.................whether I am CC or whether I am the CC Manager.
As regular readers know, I would fire about half of the BA CC managers.
As regular readers know, I would fire about half of the BA CC managers.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Thailand
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fair point to a degree Fin, though the price of Jet A-1 in Mideast Gulf is typically only 3-5% cheaper than NW Europe.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SALISBURY
Age: 76
Posts: 706
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ChicoG
Not to their national carriers it isn't! (and I see the bills for one of them that are continually written off).
I'm out of here for a couple of weeks for some sunshine. LGW-GND tomorrow in J, with BA obviously. Is it too much to hope that progress will have been made sorting out Bassa by the time I return?
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Under the Long Grey Cloud
Age: 76
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Time for BASSA/UNITE to wake up.
Engines run smoothly again as Rolls-Royce is named top brand - Home News, UK - The Independent
The airline sector did particularly badly in the survey. British Airways, hampered by union strikes and bad weather, slumped from eight in 2010 to No 48. Virgin Atlantic's credibility also dropped significantly, falling from fourth position in 2010 to 14th
