BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions IV
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Lord Bracken Not content with veto-ing the hot towels in WTP, BASSA also scuppered the service levels on the London City - New York flight.
BA originally wanted to have a 'dine on demand' service and pitch the offering a more of a "Club Seat, First Service" product.
BA originally wanted to have a 'dine on demand' service and pitch the offering a more of a "Club Seat, First Service" product.
Still seems odd to me that crew must report to LGW first before shuttling to LCY; not very pragmatic.
Here is the HotTowelGate link:
. LGW/LHR - 29/01/09 Hot Towels
And here is ClubWorldLondonCityGate:
. LGW - 24/07/09 - Fisher - LCY Update
you can see that BA originally wanted a la carte dining for London City, but it "wouldn't work" according to BASSA.
Here:
. LGW - 27/07/09 - Fisher - Failure to Agree
you can see that Unite originally wanted Cabin Crew to have 24 hours rest in Ireland after operating the arduous (less than one hour!) LCY-SNN service.
It's just no way to operate a modern business.
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Have a lovely holiday fincastle.
BG
BG
295 to ORD the other day, well mixed crew, lots of smiles. Couldn't really do more and they all did it with a smile. Had to refuse drinks later in the flight as they were round so often to keep us hydrated and this is in 'steerage'.
Aeroplane obviously getting on, but not broke or dirty - I thought all BA 777s had Rollers? This one had GE90s!
Very smooth though and ended up at FL400 and either early or bang on time - wasn't sure.As an aside, I vote ORD as the fastest port of entry into USA. Cabin to rental in 32 minutes and I once did it - a couple of years ago and in to a friends car - in fourteen minutes.
I've taken >90 mins at Atlanta and almost that in Miami. Roger.
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I have not posted on this (long) thread because I don't travel via BA. But the issues presented are not too dissimilar to those faced by legacy airlines around the world. I wish to note, though, that while financial shackles may yet determine the destiny of these airlines, employee attitude and management performance are fixable.
Because of my home airport(s), I have been a frequent flyer on Continental for the last 20+ years. It is well-known that this airline was in the dumps during the early '90s as its merger with People's Express and its acquisition of certain Eastern Airlines' assets imploded, and it went into bankruptcy. All of the telltale signs were there: dirty old planes, unmotivated crew and clueless management.
But in the mid-'90s, management began to turn around. Under Gordon Bethune, Continental made a deal with Boeing to refurbish its fleet (on credit) and established increased financial rewards to staff based on operational and customer performance. The rest is history. (Read, Amazon.com: From Worst to First: Behind the Scenes of Continental's Remarkable Comeback (9780471356523): Gordon Bethune: Books .)
So based on a joint effort, you can turn around an airline. What is needed is to stop the emphasis on blaming your partners, and start to try to work with them for the common good. Sadly, though, I remain worried that as the result of the recent merger between Continental and United, it is possible to backtrack, too. The next year will tell as operations become truly integrated.
Because of my home airport(s), I have been a frequent flyer on Continental for the last 20+ years. It is well-known that this airline was in the dumps during the early '90s as its merger with People's Express and its acquisition of certain Eastern Airlines' assets imploded, and it went into bankruptcy. All of the telltale signs were there: dirty old planes, unmotivated crew and clueless management.
But in the mid-'90s, management began to turn around. Under Gordon Bethune, Continental made a deal with Boeing to refurbish its fleet (on credit) and established increased financial rewards to staff based on operational and customer performance. The rest is history. (Read, Amazon.com: From Worst to First: Behind the Scenes of Continental's Remarkable Comeback (9780471356523): Gordon Bethune: Books .)
So based on a joint effort, you can turn around an airline. What is needed is to stop the emphasis on blaming your partners, and start to try to work with them for the common good. Sadly, though, I remain worried that as the result of the recent merger between Continental and United, it is possible to backtrack, too. The next year will tell as operations become truly integrated.
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Betty girl
Thanks for your kind thoughts.
As ever I'm sure it will be a great pleasure to spend 9 hours in the company of your excellent colleagues.
Fly safely & keep smiling.
As ever I'm sure it will be a great pleasure to spend 9 hours in the company of your excellent colleagues.
Fly safely & keep smiling.
Paxing All Over The World
Ancient Observer Takes up my challenge
My experience as a customer tells me that they can be changed.
1. The British Passport Agency.
True, but not an international company. No shareholders and all elements within direct control of the boss (Home Secretary) who is based in the same city.
2. British Telecom.
I was involved in telecommunications from 1979 to 2003 and so I saw all of this although, again, would draw the caveat that their operations are in the UK, overseas units are not quite the same but I will grant you!
3. BA. Anyone else remember the step change in customer service around the early 90's when they ran PPF1 and PPF2? Either the CEO or the Chair attended every programme across the world.
Yes - exactly so! And, as you say, they then let it go. Why? My guess is Money. After the 1989-92 recession, all companies clamped down on their costs and never let up. Good - except for the well know fact that many companies now got run by people from outside the business and ones who had not grown up through the business. I won't go back over all of that but you sometimes HAVE to spend money on the not obvious things. Lastly, this was the time when outsourcing hit the big time but that is all about saving money too.
If you doubt the problems of outsourcing, look at what happened once govt started doing it too!
SeenItAll I could not agree more, I often cite Bethune and that book in this forum. BUT, the difference with CO then was that they were bankrupt. They had reached the very bottom and had nowhere else to go and that focus' minds. Until BA reaches that stage, I suggest that serious change cannot happen.
My experience as a customer tells me that they can be changed.
1. The British Passport Agency.
True, but not an international company. No shareholders and all elements within direct control of the boss (Home Secretary) who is based in the same city.
2. British Telecom.
I was involved in telecommunications from 1979 to 2003 and so I saw all of this although, again, would draw the caveat that their operations are in the UK, overseas units are not quite the same but I will grant you!
3. BA. Anyone else remember the step change in customer service around the early 90's when they ran PPF1 and PPF2? Either the CEO or the Chair attended every programme across the world.
Yes - exactly so! And, as you say, they then let it go. Why? My guess is Money. After the 1989-92 recession, all companies clamped down on their costs and never let up. Good - except for the well know fact that many companies now got run by people from outside the business and ones who had not grown up through the business. I won't go back over all of that but you sometimes HAVE to spend money on the not obvious things. Lastly, this was the time when outsourcing hit the big time but that is all about saving money too.
If you doubt the problems of outsourcing, look at what happened once govt started doing it too!
SeenItAll I could not agree more, I often cite Bethune and that book in this forum. BUT, the difference with CO then was that they were bankrupt. They had reached the very bottom and had nowhere else to go and that focus' minds. Until BA reaches that stage, I suggest that serious change cannot happen.
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PAXboy
Continental did indeed raise themselves from the ashes. What will be most interesting is if their managemant can pull United up to their level. United has been trying but just hasn't got it right just yet.
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Why did you post this LB - just felt like stirring it ?
You are , of course , correct that a company saying this would be liable, but this is a private individual expressing his/her thoughts as an opinion and therefore not subject to this legislation.
So once again, why ?
You are , of course , correct that a company saying this would be liable, but this is a private individual expressing his/her thoughts as an opinion and therefore not subject to this legislation.
So once again, why ?
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Back what up exactly? I believe the post to be discriminatory. If that is too PC, then there is nothing I can say.
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"young, energised vs. matronly" is not discriminatory.
But anyway, the age issue is a sideshow to the real issue which is that many airlines pay less, treat their crews very poorly, and yet those individuals still deliver top notch service. More evidence that wages to not correlate with service delivered.
So, back to the matter of the missing BASSA accounts. I have looked into this further, there is no need to go via the certification officer with a complaint, or indeed wait until the 28 day period has elapsed.
The member can go directly to the High Court:
Quote:
31 Remedy for failure to comply with request for access.E+W+S
(1)A person who claims that a trade union has failed in any respect to comply with a request made by him under section 30 may apply to the court [F2or to the Certification Officer].
(2)Where [F3on an application to it] the court is satisfied that the claim is well-founded, it shall make such order as it considers appropriate for ensuring that [F4the applicant]—
(a)is allowed to inspect the records requested,
(b)is allowed to be accompanied by an accountant when making the inspection of those records, and
(c)is allowed to take, or is supplied with, such copies of, or of extracts from, the records as he may require.
Write a letter to the union asking for access to the accounts within 28 days of the original request, and explain that if access (as permitted by the legislation) is not granted within that time ask the High Court for an order that access is granted.
The legislation requires that:
Quote:
(2)Where such access is requested the union shall—
(a)make arrangements with the member for him to be allowed to inspect the records requested before the end of the period of twenty-eight days beginning with the day the request was made,
(b)allow him and any accountant accompanying him for the purpose to inspect the records at the time and place arranged, and
(c)secure that at the time of the inspection he is allowed to take, or is supplied with, any copies of, or of extracts from, records inspected by him which he requires.
(3)The inspection shall be at a reasonable hour and at the place where the records are normally kept, unless the parties to the arrangements agree otherwise.
But anyway, the age issue is a sideshow to the real issue which is that many airlines pay less, treat their crews very poorly, and yet those individuals still deliver top notch service. More evidence that wages to not correlate with service delivered.
So, back to the matter of the missing BASSA accounts. I have looked into this further, there is no need to go via the certification officer with a complaint, or indeed wait until the 28 day period has elapsed.
The member can go directly to the High Court:
Quote:
31 Remedy for failure to comply with request for access.E+W+S
(1)A person who claims that a trade union has failed in any respect to comply with a request made by him under section 30 may apply to the court [F2or to the Certification Officer].
(2)Where [F3on an application to it] the court is satisfied that the claim is well-founded, it shall make such order as it considers appropriate for ensuring that [F4the applicant]—
(a)is allowed to inspect the records requested,
(b)is allowed to be accompanied by an accountant when making the inspection of those records, and
(c)is allowed to take, or is supplied with, such copies of, or of extracts from, the records as he may require.
Write a letter to the union asking for access to the accounts within 28 days of the original request, and explain that if access (as permitted by the legislation) is not granted within that time ask the High Court for an order that access is granted.
The legislation requires that:
Quote:
(2)Where such access is requested the union shall—
(a)make arrangements with the member for him to be allowed to inspect the records requested before the end of the period of twenty-eight days beginning with the day the request was made,
(b)allow him and any accountant accompanying him for the purpose to inspect the records at the time and place arranged, and
(c)secure that at the time of the inspection he is allowed to take, or is supplied with, any copies of, or of extracts from, records inspected by him which he requires.
(3)The inspection shall be at a reasonable hour and at the place where the records are normally kept, unless the parties to the arrangements agree otherwise.
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VintageKrug said
Perhaps BASSA is not a trade union, but is a lodge or chapel?_ I don’t know.
A person who claims that a trade union has failed in any respect to comply with a request . . .
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Originally Posted by VintageKrug
Still seems odd to me that crew must report to LGW first before shuttling to LCY; not very pragmatic.
Not all crew trips start and end at the same place. It's the responsibility of the airline to position you around to meet the aircraft wherever it may be, and to pay you for the time taken to do so.
If this were not the case, it would be difficult to correctly calculate Duty Periods (which start and end at home base) and could result in abuse by the employer i.e. your trip today starts at Manchester and you will operate back into Aberdeen tomorrow - the following day your report will be in Cardiff!
The LGW crew can report at LGW because they are "in hours" to position to LCY and then operate - their Duty Hours calculation will start from report time at LGW, their Flying Duty Hours calculation will start from arrival at LCY.
Hope this helps
The LGW crew can report at LGW because they are "in hours" to position to LCY and then operate - their Duty Hours calculation will start from report time at LGW, their Flying Duty Hours calculation will start from arrival at LCY.
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Not all crew trips start and end at the same place. It's the responsibility of the airline to position you around to meet the aircraft wherever it may be, and to pay you for the time taken to do so.
Sorry if this is straying OT, but could I ask if staff have the choice to report directly to LCY?
For example if you had a member of staff who resided in Canary Wharf, can they report directly to LCY, or do they have to go down to LGW, only to then be bussed back to LCY by BA?
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StudentInDebt - Thanks, you are correct of course. I was trying to keep it as simple as possible - I'm familiar with the situation from my charter days, where positioning pre/post flight was the norm - It's all coming back to me now! 
Richard228 - Normally, the report would have to be at home base. The crew need to assemble, possibly brief, and standbys to be called out for no-shows. Should an inbound aircraft divert, then the crew would be all together for transport to somewhere else.
That said, exceptions can be made on an ad-hoc basis, usually with prior agreement from the crewing department, and if the individual is known and trusted, but officially... No
Richard228 - Normally, the report would have to be at home base. The crew need to assemble, possibly brief, and standbys to be called out for no-shows. Should an inbound aircraft divert, then the crew would be all together for transport to somewhere else.
That said, exceptions can be made on an ad-hoc basis, usually with prior agreement from the crewing department, and if the individual is known and trusted, but officially... No
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VintageKrug
I am shocked that you would suggest that discrimination is a side show. Using the word matronly verses young is to suggest an old female. Just because it is not as glaringly obvious as other forms, does not mean that it is any less discriminatory.
As to taking the Bassa accounts issue through the courts; I believe the claim to be well founded will only happen after the 28 days.
As to taking the Bassa accounts issue through the courts; I believe the claim to be well founded will only happen after the 28 days.
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R228,
In my company we can 'self position' The company assumes that you live close to your home base so your duty will start at the time that your taxi or hire car would leave your home base to go to your place of duty i.e. another base. If you live closer to this 'other place of duty' it would obviously madness to make you go to your home base first so the company allows you to get to this temp base under your own steam.
This seems entirely logical and reasonable but then there are no unions involved.
Regards
In my company we can 'self position' The company assumes that you live close to your home base so your duty will start at the time that your taxi or hire car would leave your home base to go to your place of duty i.e. another base. If you live closer to this 'other place of duty' it would obviously madness to make you go to your home base first so the company allows you to get to this temp base under your own steam.
This seems entirely logical and reasonable but then there are no unions involved.
Regards
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Matronly
To my mind, the word "Matronly" suggests somebody with a particular attitude to the workplace and their "customers" (as in patients). Being old enough to remember hospital matrons, some of them were quite young, but nevertheless very matronly. It is a very apt description of the outward persona of quite a few BA CC (and a few other carriers, AC comes to mind) in my experience.
Most Matrons were extremely well motivated to the technical care of their patients, and this may well be the case with the aforementioned CC, but their patients were unlikely to find them a source of joy and happiness !
Most Matrons were extremely well motivated to the technical care of their patients, and this may well be the case with the aforementioned CC, but their patients were unlikely to find them a source of joy and happiness !
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Hipennine
The comment was young vs matronly. Just using matronly suggests it is the older women, not male crew.
It appears that BA have tried and failed to discriminate in this way in the Mak case as Joao states. If I read that case correctly, the discrimination part was accepted, it was the jusitiction of the case that was called into question.
It appears that BA have tried and failed to discriminate in this way in the Mak case as Joao states. If I read that case correctly, the discrimination part was accepted, it was the jusitiction of the case that was called into question.
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This discussion about so-called discrimination is a complete distraction from the real issue which is BA's lack of competitiveness in the global aviation market. Fiddling whilst Rome burns.
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This current thread suggests that BA has a history of discrimination and is generally a rather poor employer. I would humbly suggest that in my own observations this isn’t the case whatsoever. Indeed I would contest that BA has been /is far more gay, mother, race, age, [insert minority group of your choice here] friendly that a great many UK employers.
With regards to the Mak case there were international considerations there that make it somewhat different and not in my view an indicator of the companies attitude generally.
Edit : Vintage beat me to it, but I agree totally...
With regards to the Mak case there were international considerations there that make it somewhat different and not in my view an indicator of the companies attitude generally.
Edit : Vintage beat me to it, but I agree totally...