BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions
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pj67coll ... an interesting point. I'm flying to the Old Colony on Wednesday, and was hoping to greet all the CC with a cheerful "thank you for being here". Now I'll have to say it anyway, but some of them may think it's sarcastic!
Oh ... nice one, Judge! Thanks, Your Honour.
Oh ... nice one, Judge! Thanks, Your Honour.
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A spiritedly sarcastic whistling of the Marines' marching song,
'From the Halls of Montezuma to the Shores of Tripoli'
Should remind any and all who have an education as to the unsuitability of their union logo.
'From the Halls of Montezuma to the Shores of Tripoli'
Should remind any and all who have an education as to the unsuitability of their union logo.
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The relevant sections from the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 have been quoted on this, and the other thread many times. It is not rocket science, and most of us are able to understand the rules in a few minutes. However, a major union, such as Unite, with all of their legal advice, is unable to follow the basic law.
Post #168 (page 9)
Holding off an injunction until the day before yet another stoppage is part of a carefully thought out plan
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Now what?
BA win the injunction and the strikes are off. Now what?
Given the mentality of Unite and more so BASSA, this is far from over. I wait in anticipation at the next moves from either side and I guess a lot rides on the court of appeal tomorrow.
If no appeal is granted, will BASSA lead it's members to IA without the protection or will another ballot quickly follow?
If a new ballot is the call, how soon could IA take place?
Given the mentality of Unite and more so BASSA, this is far from over. I wait in anticipation at the next moves from either side and I guess a lot rides on the court of appeal tomorrow.
If no appeal is granted, will BASSA lead it's members to IA without the protection or will another ballot quickly follow?
If a new ballot is the call, how soon could IA take place?
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A new ballot on what? A different cause?
ST - already thrown out by the Court as a non-contractual perk.
Disciplinary actions - hahahahaha. hahahaha.
I have no doubt that in some little suburban sitting room someone is trying to create justification for IA, but it isn't going to be on any of the topics we have been reading for bloody months. There are no grounds for IA ... simples.
ST - already thrown out by the Court as a non-contractual perk.
Disciplinary actions - hahahahaha. hahahaha.
I have no doubt that in some little suburban sitting room someone is trying to create justification for IA, but it isn't going to be on any of the topics we have been reading for bloody months. There are no grounds for IA ... simples.
Appeals
We're still of course waiting for Unite's promised appeal over "contractual" crewing levels so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to appeal this one.
Is there any reason why Unite can't simply re-ballot though? As a further thought, if the last strike was illegal, would it "count" as the starting point for the 12 week clock, or would a new ballot re-start the clock I wonder?
Sadly, given the the intransigence of BASSA, this is far from over in my view.
Is there any reason why Unite can't simply re-ballot though? As a further thought, if the last strike was illegal, would it "count" as the starting point for the 12 week clock, or would a new ballot re-start the clock I wonder?
Sadly, given the the intransigence of BASSA, this is far from over in my view.
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new ballot
Of course there will be new ballot!
This whole thing is about BASSA and their leadership and followers versus `Wicked Willie`!!
How can WW be seen to win in their eyes?
I do believe this is not all over and several things will happen soon
Firstly the strikers will be sacked for taking part in an illegal strike.
Why should WW and the board let them get away with the disruption and cost they caused? We all know there are plenty waiting in the wings to take the positions of the sacked workers on `new fleet` terms and conditions.
Do the strikers deserve this?
IMHO yes!! Because they have blindly followed the BASSA line without considering the companys` financial position,any of the companys` offers and acted childishly and irresponsibly.Oh yes and believed every BASSA missive.
I am at a loss to understand for example what a 40 year old CSD (one of whom i recognised at Bedfont FC,) who has used all previous promotion opportunity to their advantage, has lose from BA`s proposals apart from gradual loss of routes over the years. What they may now lose is their career pension having already lost staff travel. Sad to see!
Will they be able to sue UNITE for the loss of their job?
New fleet will arrive a lot sooner than originally proposed.
Some protection must be given to those who supported the company and I suggest the best BA offer will remain on the table for them.
Why should WW lose/miss out on the opportunity to smash BASSA and remove a lot of deadwood from the company.?
Invest in the people who support BA an not just employees but the loyal customers.
Time to return BA to being the `Worlds` Favourite` and `Putting People First`
This whole thing is about BASSA and their leadership and followers versus `Wicked Willie`!!
How can WW be seen to win in their eyes?
I do believe this is not all over and several things will happen soon
Firstly the strikers will be sacked for taking part in an illegal strike.
Why should WW and the board let them get away with the disruption and cost they caused? We all know there are plenty waiting in the wings to take the positions of the sacked workers on `new fleet` terms and conditions.
Do the strikers deserve this?
IMHO yes!! Because they have blindly followed the BASSA line without considering the companys` financial position,any of the companys` offers and acted childishly and irresponsibly.Oh yes and believed every BASSA missive.
I am at a loss to understand for example what a 40 year old CSD (one of whom i recognised at Bedfont FC,) who has used all previous promotion opportunity to their advantage, has lose from BA`s proposals apart from gradual loss of routes over the years. What they may now lose is their career pension having already lost staff travel. Sad to see!
Will they be able to sue UNITE for the loss of their job?
New fleet will arrive a lot sooner than originally proposed.
Some protection must be given to those who supported the company and I suggest the best BA offer will remain on the table for them.
Why should WW lose/miss out on the opportunity to smash BASSA and remove a lot of deadwood from the company.?
Invest in the people who support BA an not just employees but the loyal customers.
Time to return BA to being the `Worlds` Favourite` and `Putting People First`
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What is the downside for Heathrow Cabin Crew?
I understand all the frustration of the Unions and BA but exactly what are the "awful" terms being offered to Heathrow CC compared to those at GatwicK? Why should the older staff have any objection to new CC coming into the company on the same terms as Gatwick staff ?( the situation as I understand it)
Just seems to me as a passenger and former flight deck with another airline that somebody is deliberately stirring up trouble. Or is that too simplistic?
Furthermore, is a company not entitled to withdraw special privileges to staff who act against the company's interests? Simplistic again?
Just seems to me as a passenger and former flight deck with another airline that somebody is deliberately stirring up trouble. Or is that too simplistic?
Furthermore, is a company not entitled to withdraw special privileges to staff who act against the company's interests? Simplistic again?
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If a cabin crew member is dismissed from BA, and BASSA is only for BA cabin crew, can they still belong to BASSA when they no longer work for BA?
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From Walsh:
[Nail] <- Hit squarely on head.
The Bassa reactionaries do not care about our customers, colleagues in other departments or even their own members. What they care about is preserving the appearance of their own importance.
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Tony Woodley and his Unite Brothers are bemoaning the impact on democracy arising from the latest injunction which, in effect removes protection from those BA cabin crew taking strike action in March. I think the Union bosses will be waking up to the fact that UK law is a two edged sword. They are quite content to invoke obscure parts of employment law in order to expose any procedural error in cases of improper dismissal. Now, they must face up to the fact that they too are equally bound by the same laws to conduct strike ballots etc properly. Consequently, from this stand point, I have no difficulty in the learned Judge's decision yesterday afternoon. Indeed, it's a case of those who live by the (legal) sword dying by the (legal) sword.
So where does this leave all those BA cabin crew who chose to strike and who are now potentially stripped of their protection? Well, at first glance, it seems they are in jeopardy of being dismissed on the grounds they broke their employment contract by failing to report for work when required. The question arises will Mr Walsh press this point? If he does, then would dismissed cabin crew have a case against BASSA/Unite for failure to provide a "duty of care" when running the strike ballot and encouraging them to take industrial action? If this is so, can we see some enterprising law firm taking on a "pro bono" class action on before of sacked crew against the Union that has, it would seem, let them down so grievously? In this case, BA could be spared the trouble of pursuing BASSA/Unite for damages as the company might consider, in the long run, the removal of the cancer worth the loss of revenue. This would also leave its hands clean because one should never forget that many other groups of BA workers are also members of Unite.
So where does this leave all those BA cabin crew who chose to strike and who are now potentially stripped of their protection? Well, at first glance, it seems they are in jeopardy of being dismissed on the grounds they broke their employment contract by failing to report for work when required. The question arises will Mr Walsh press this point? If he does, then would dismissed cabin crew have a case against BASSA/Unite for failure to provide a "duty of care" when running the strike ballot and encouraging them to take industrial action? If this is so, can we see some enterprising law firm taking on a "pro bono" class action on before of sacked crew against the Union that has, it would seem, let them down so grievously? In this case, BA could be spared the trouble of pursuing BASSA/Unite for damages as the company might consider, in the long run, the removal of the cancer worth the loss of revenue. This would also leave its hands clean because one should never forget that many other groups of BA workers are also members of Unite.
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Good discussion on 5 live re strike.
Well done Maxine, a CC who didn't strike and put a very clear case against the union. She happily said that if BA were to reduce here wages she would be at the front of the strike queue but until they do, you can't strike over what may happen.
Regards
Well done Maxine, a CC who didn't strike and put a very clear case against the union. She happily said that if BA were to reduce here wages she would be at the front of the strike queue but until they do, you can't strike over what may happen.
Regards
A new ballot on what? A different cause?
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Times article
"The Bassa tail is wagging the Unite dog. I urge Tony Woodley and Derek Simpson to assert their authority and address this situation. The vast bulk of their 20,000 members at BA urgently want them to do so. These include the thousands of regular cabin crew who ignored the strike calls in March and, if necessary, will do so again to help us to keep the airline flying.
"During the last strike, we flew more than 80 per cent of our customers. I am considering plans to raise that number towards 100 per cent should the need arise.I sincerely hope it does not. Unite’s leaders must act."
"During the last strike, we flew more than 80 per cent of our customers. I am considering plans to raise that number towards 100 per cent should the need arise.I sincerely hope it does not. Unite’s leaders must act."
I have to disagree with Baggersup. I think that Mr Walsh has made it very plain that if necessary he will remove the militants, by redundancy if necessary, much to everyone's relief I'm sure.
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I have to disagree with Baggersup. I think that Mr Walsh has made it very plain that if necessary he will remove the militants, by redundancy if necessary, much to everyone's relief I'm sure.]
Nice that Bassa orchestrated it too.
Now there is lessons to be learnt by the university profs etc! Nicely done Sir.
Last edited by Winch-control; 18th May 2010 at 10:38.
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Baggers
If they don't have an outside organization constantly stirring the pot with negativity and militancy, it might calm down after awhile.
It seems that every time a union rep is looked at to any degree he/she is discovered to have not worked in months!
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Re Interesting Message from Bob Crowe
Radio 2's Jeremy Vine had Bob Crowe from the RMT union on to discuss the recent High Court ruling against Unison, and he made a very interesting statement to the fact that ALL strikes are in fact illegal and a breach of contract in the UK, all a ballot does is to protect workers for a 12 week period from dismissal, and the union concerned from financial punishment from the employer. My question is, was he correct, are there any Employment Lawyers out there in PPruneland who can clarify this?
As ex BA crew with lots of friends on both sides of this dispute, I don't think any of the strikers feel that their jobs are on the line because of their actions in withdrawing their labour, as its "legal to strike". There has been lots of speculation on here and the BA v BASSA thread about this, what is fact please?
Oldflyboy
PS: Very pro BA, anti BASSA but pro all the great crew who want to make the company a great place to work again.
As ex BA crew with lots of friends on both sides of this dispute, I don't think any of the strikers feel that their jobs are on the line because of their actions in withdrawing their labour, as its "legal to strike". There has been lots of speculation on here and the BA v BASSA thread about this, what is fact please?
Oldflyboy
PS: Very pro BA, anti BASSA but pro all the great crew who want to make the company a great place to work again.
I see that Unite are having a hearing at 14:00 to seek leave to appeal.
I wonder if his/her Lordships will agree that Unite are free to ignore employment law that Unite apparently consider to be a trivial technicality
Much the same really as Unite's demand to treat the BA disciplinary code as a trivial technicality.
I wonder if his/her Lordships will agree that Unite are free to ignore employment law that Unite apparently consider to be a trivial technicality
Much the same really as Unite's demand to treat the BA disciplinary code as a trivial technicality.
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Oldflyboy
Chap, the simple, hard and rather unfair reality is that any employer can sack any employee at anytime for anything – the employer may have to justify their actions and they may indeed be called to provide compensation (far from substantial however) if found to be in the wrong. This doesn’t alter the fact that the employee is sacked and remains so.
It is a requirement of UK law that these words have to be present on the ballot paper: - "If you take part in a strike or other industrial action, you may be in breach of your contract of employment."
The law was later amended to add the following also: - “However, if you are dismissed for taking part in strike or other industrial action which is called officially and is otherwise lawful, the dismissal will be unfair if it takes place fewer than twelve weeks after you started taking part in the action, and depending on the circumstances may be unfair if it takes place later."
The important bit to note here is “….is otherwise lawful, the dismissal will be unfair….” Unfair note, not illegal or reversed or wont happen.
There is a risk to your employment when you go on strike, to strike in absence of this knowledge is unfortunate, and alas irrelevant.
At one of the classic BASSA Sandown meetings one member from the floor asked the question “Can you be sacked whilst on strike?” The answer he received was not YES or NO but rather the section above that you would see on the ballot. The only truthful answer to that question should have been yes.
By all means add all the rest of the legal stuff, but the “YES you can be sacked” should have been in there somewhere.
You may as well ask “Can I be burgled?”
“NO, it’s illegal”
“OK good, I’ll leave the home door unlocked then if that’s the case”
Whilst I don’t support this IA I do very much support unions and their existence, I do wish this one was a lot better though.
Edit - Oldflyboy - if you have friends stuck in this mess you may want to suggest to them they get themselves informed as their Union clearly isnt. They can start here: - http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/TradeUnions/Tradeunionsintheworkplace/DG_179203
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/TradeUnions/Industrialaction/DG_10031235
…or for the real masochists amongst us, the act itself..!
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1992/ukpga_19920052_en_1
It is a requirement of UK law that these words have to be present on the ballot paper: - "If you take part in a strike or other industrial action, you may be in breach of your contract of employment."
The law was later amended to add the following also: - “However, if you are dismissed for taking part in strike or other industrial action which is called officially and is otherwise lawful, the dismissal will be unfair if it takes place fewer than twelve weeks after you started taking part in the action, and depending on the circumstances may be unfair if it takes place later."
The important bit to note here is “….is otherwise lawful, the dismissal will be unfair….” Unfair note, not illegal or reversed or wont happen.
There is a risk to your employment when you go on strike, to strike in absence of this knowledge is unfortunate, and alas irrelevant.
At one of the classic BASSA Sandown meetings one member from the floor asked the question “Can you be sacked whilst on strike?” The answer he received was not YES or NO but rather the section above that you would see on the ballot. The only truthful answer to that question should have been yes.
By all means add all the rest of the legal stuff, but the “YES you can be sacked” should have been in there somewhere.
You may as well ask “Can I be burgled?”
“NO, it’s illegal”
“OK good, I’ll leave the home door unlocked then if that’s the case”
Whilst I don’t support this IA I do very much support unions and their existence, I do wish this one was a lot better though.
Edit - Oldflyboy - if you have friends stuck in this mess you may want to suggest to them they get themselves informed as their Union clearly isnt. They can start here: - http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/TradeUnions/Tradeunionsintheworkplace/DG_179203
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/TradeUnions/Industrialaction/DG_10031235
…or for the real masochists amongst us, the act itself..!
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1992/ukpga_19920052_en_1
Last edited by Snas; 18th May 2010 at 14:20.