BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions
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Miss M
It is very interesting and appreciated that you have elected to return to this forum.
You express mostly a balanced view of this dispute but with an undertone that demonstrates a mindset of a bygone era.
Having read most of what you have said you make many good points but with an obvious ignorance of how the world has changed around you whilst protected in your BASSA negotiated BA bubble.
Look around you -
I fly regularly with Virgin and know very well what their CSD equivelants get paid, it is about 50% at best of a BA CSD.
If BA are actually offering a deal that protects your basics T's & C's then just be happy, bite their hands off but do not expect your succesors to receive the same benefits.
Also the notion that your pay level should be proportional to your length of service died in the late 80's.
I also know very well how ridculous some of the BASSA deals have been over the years, hot towels is recent but just continues a theme - BA flight deck crew from regional tell me how the CC were contracted not to move the Biz class curtain in turnaround meaning the flight deck crew had to do it whilc CC drank coffee watching! - get real! - its over!
But don't forget your real weak spot! - 21 days to train a person with no particular educational qualifications to do your job! - if I am incorrect here please advise what the entrance requirements for a CC actually are?
If you really distrust your employer to the extent you indicate isn't it just time to move on? - for the avoidance of doubt this means take your skills and experience and offer them on the market to the highest bidder - only this way will you learn whether or not your current employer is being unfair. Market forces will then ensure that they have to adjust their remuneration package to a level that fulfills their demand.
It may seem harsh but it is the basis of the capitalist economy that we live in - the same one that attracts £10,000 for a 1st class return LFR to SFO and the same one that dictates £350 for the same route economy. It is the world that your employer lives in and guess what? it has changed in a way that probably no one could have predicted when your t's & c's were negotiated.
Miss M - this is not a personal attack but are widely held opinions on this dispute from the business community. I welcome your response as someone who appears as a BASSA moderate.
You express mostly a balanced view of this dispute but with an undertone that demonstrates a mindset of a bygone era.
Having read most of what you have said you make many good points but with an obvious ignorance of how the world has changed around you whilst protected in your BASSA negotiated BA bubble.
Look around you -
- UK PLC is pretty much bankrupt and many of your fellow citizens are suffering
- If you need closer evidence of how far it has gone just look at the ownership of many of our once great assets? LHR is a good starting point - owned by the Spanish; British Nuclear power generation - the French government; Jaguar - the Inidans; British steel - The same Indians- Thames Water - The Germans ....... etc .. etc
I fly regularly with Virgin and know very well what their CSD equivelants get paid, it is about 50% at best of a BA CSD.
If BA are actually offering a deal that protects your basics T's & C's then just be happy, bite their hands off but do not expect your succesors to receive the same benefits.
Also the notion that your pay level should be proportional to your length of service died in the late 80's.
I also know very well how ridculous some of the BASSA deals have been over the years, hot towels is recent but just continues a theme - BA flight deck crew from regional tell me how the CC were contracted not to move the Biz class curtain in turnaround meaning the flight deck crew had to do it whilc CC drank coffee watching! - get real! - its over!
But don't forget your real weak spot! - 21 days to train a person with no particular educational qualifications to do your job! - if I am incorrect here please advise what the entrance requirements for a CC actually are?
If you really distrust your employer to the extent you indicate isn't it just time to move on? - for the avoidance of doubt this means take your skills and experience and offer them on the market to the highest bidder - only this way will you learn whether or not your current employer is being unfair. Market forces will then ensure that they have to adjust their remuneration package to a level that fulfills their demand.
It may seem harsh but it is the basis of the capitalist economy that we live in - the same one that attracts £10,000 for a 1st class return LFR to SFO and the same one that dictates £350 for the same route economy. It is the world that your employer lives in and guess what? it has changed in a way that probably no one could have predicted when your t's & c's were negotiated.
Miss M - this is not a personal attack but are widely held opinions on this dispute from the business community. I welcome your response as someone who appears as a BASSA moderate.
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I wonder if today’s disruption to flights will qualify as worthy in BASSA’s eyes to allow the disruption to have been applied?
Snow wasnt good enough, let's try a volcano now then.
Snow wasnt good enough, let's try a volcano now then.
Hot towels
As I've mentionned on here before I flew as a customer to Syd + back with VS in Jan., in their WT+ product.
I'm not sure that I actually wanted the hot towels when I was given them - 4 times, 1 in each leg, but I have to say that I was delighted to take them as I knoew that BA would not offer them, as it allows the few of its CC to dictate what product it should offer and how it should be offered.
As someone else has pointed out, would Domino Pizzas be so successful if it allowed its delivery riders to dictate what Pizzas they would carry?
I I were in bassa, I would be more worried about my pension - which is dependant on BA's success, than I would be about hot towels.
I'm not sure that I actually wanted the hot towels when I was given them - 4 times, 1 in each leg, but I have to say that I was delighted to take them as I knoew that BA would not offer them, as it allows the few of its CC to dictate what product it should offer and how it should be offered.
As someone else has pointed out, would Domino Pizzas be so successful if it allowed its delivery riders to dictate what Pizzas they would carry?
I I were in bassa, I would be more worried about my pension - which is dependant on BA's success, than I would be about hot towels.
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Without wishing to stay for too much longer on the hot towels issue, as important as it may be as an indicator as to the crazy world that BASSA dwell within...
...it isn’t always the case that you won’t get hot towels on each flight, they are loaded onboard each time and there are some CC that remember that they work for BA and will issue them regardless of BASSA’s small mind on this issue.
I know of one purser personally who says she can gauge how the service will be during the trip by the looks she gets from other crew when she reaches for the hot towels; it’s either expressions of relief or looks of horror which clearly identify which camp the particular CC member is in.
...it isn’t always the case that you won’t get hot towels on each flight, they are loaded onboard each time and there are some CC that remember that they work for BA and will issue them regardless of BASSA’s small mind on this issue.
I know of one purser personally who says she can gauge how the service will be during the trip by the looks she gets from other crew when she reaches for the hot towels; it’s either expressions of relief or looks of horror which clearly identify which camp the particular CC member is in.
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Miss M.
When BA wanted to introduce a hot towel service in WT+ BASSA felt they were trying to get away with another imposition because BA didn't ask them first.
As said by others, it really beggars belief that Bassa has been allowed to call the shots in this way. The economic climate at the moment means that most companies are fighting for their continued existence. Bassa seems to think that nothing has changed since the sixties. Sadly no company is too big to fall and if the militants cannot see that they are delusional
As said by others, it really beggars belief that Bassa has been allowed to call the shots in this way. The economic climate at the moment means that most companies are fighting for their continued existence. Bassa seems to think that nothing has changed since the sixties. Sadly no company is too big to fall and if the militants cannot see that they are delusional
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Ancient Observer, I’d probably agree that it was an indication of a company / customer focused mindset over one that's more jobs-worth / union minded, if that also translates to a better quality I couldn’t say.
When it comes to quality of service within BA, for me, the issue is one of lack of consistency, it’s either excellent or dreadful (more often than not simply middle of the road).
I believe this is the inevitable result of a service company where its staff are not promoted on merit and generally have to break a law to lose their jobs. It isn’t easy to get fired from BA... sloppy or surly service wouldn’t do it that's for sure.
When it comes to quality of service within BA, for me, the issue is one of lack of consistency, it’s either excellent or dreadful (more often than not simply middle of the road).
I believe this is the inevitable result of a service company where its staff are not promoted on merit and generally have to break a law to lose their jobs. It isn’t easy to get fired from BA... sloppy or surly service wouldn’t do it that's for sure.
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AO
You can tell the quality of the CSD rightaway by the manner in which he/she greets you as you board the aircraft. Many SLF have said how they know how the rest of their flight is going to be within two minutes of stepping on board. Good CSDs create great atmosphere. It is the lack of consistency amongst CSDs that leads to the huge variation in the quality of inflight service you receive.
I believe this is the inevitable result of a service company where its staff are not promoted on merit and generally have to break a law to lose their jobs. It isn’t easy to get fired from BA... sloppy or surly service wouldn’t do it that's for sure.
That's right Snas. No CSD to my knowledge has ever been fired from BA for being a useless CSD though I can think of lots that should have been.
You can tell the quality of the CSD rightaway by the manner in which he/she greets you as you board the aircraft. Many SLF have said how they know how the rest of their flight is going to be within two minutes of stepping on board. Good CSDs create great atmosphere. It is the lack of consistency amongst CSDs that leads to the huge variation in the quality of inflight service you receive.
I believe this is the inevitable result of a service company where its staff are not promoted on merit and generally have to break a law to lose their jobs. It isn’t easy to get fired from BA... sloppy or surly service wouldn’t do it that's for sure.
Last edited by PaddyMiguel; 15th Apr 2010 at 12:40. Reason: Adding reply to Snas
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pencisely
I know exactly what is happening around the world and that many companies and people are suffering. Nobody, possibly with some exceptions, could be foolish enough to deny it.
Crew with VS have very poor union representation which is probably one of the reasons for their low salaries as well lower terms and conditions compared to BA. No doubt they want higher salaries and maybe this explains why crew are coming to BA and rarely the other way around. Poor union representation explains why their equivalent to our CSD earns 50% less and if you were in BA you would also know that none of us will not get anywhere near those salaries ever again. Those days are long gone by.
Contracted not to move curtains? I can't comment on it as I have never done shorthaul but it sounds a bit extraordinary.
I was recruited to certain terms and conditions which BA had agreed to with our unions. Nothing wrong with it despite what qualifications were required for the job or how long training was. There were set terms and conditions and a salary package and like you say nobody never could have predicted what would happen. BA is able to put through volunteers for 21 days and then they're all trained and good. Well done. When I was recruited it was a different mantra with a long and extensive recruitment process and training was definitely not 21 days. Why are they able to do it now by cutting back on the recruitment process and training? Because they need strikebreakers standing by to break our strike. That's the only reason.
I know exactly what is happening around the world and that many companies and people are suffering. Nobody, possibly with some exceptions, could be foolish enough to deny it.
Crew with VS have very poor union representation which is probably one of the reasons for their low salaries as well lower terms and conditions compared to BA. No doubt they want higher salaries and maybe this explains why crew are coming to BA and rarely the other way around. Poor union representation explains why their equivalent to our CSD earns 50% less and if you were in BA you would also know that none of us will not get anywhere near those salaries ever again. Those days are long gone by.
Contracted not to move curtains? I can't comment on it as I have never done shorthaul but it sounds a bit extraordinary.
I was recruited to certain terms and conditions which BA had agreed to with our unions. Nothing wrong with it despite what qualifications were required for the job or how long training was. There were set terms and conditions and a salary package and like you say nobody never could have predicted what would happen. BA is able to put through volunteers for 21 days and then they're all trained and good. Well done. When I was recruited it was a different mantra with a long and extensive recruitment process and training was definitely not 21 days. Why are they able to do it now by cutting back on the recruitment process and training? Because they need strikebreakers standing by to break our strike. That's the only reason.
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Because they need strikebreakers standing by to break our strike. That's the only reason.
BA's response has been reasonable, logical and relatively effective.
A bonus out of this entire fiasco may be increased understanding of the Cabin Crew's role in the airline's operation. A definite positive.
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Originally Posted by Diplome
A bonus out of this entire fiasco may be increased understanding of the Cabin Crew's role in the airline's operation. A definite positive.
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MissM - that was 80% of BASSA members, was it not?
NOT 80% of BA CC.
You can't spin on PPRuNe, you know
NOT 80% of BA CC.
You can't spin on PPRuNe, you know
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My post 987:
Any comments on the socialist worker report re: Derek Simpson? I see there's another unite 4 labour meeting tonight with him and Prezza.
I'm not the only one who asked this question MissM. I am sure that someone as erudite as you must have overlooked this. Please may I bring it to your attention?
Any comments on the socialist worker report re: Derek Simpson? I see there's another unite 4 labour meeting tonight with him and Prezza.
I'm not the only one who asked this question MissM. I am sure that someone as erudite as you must have overlooked this. Please may I bring it to your attention?
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I've just been perusing the main thread and I'm very impressed with your arguments and commitment in recent posts MissM.
Many union reps have moved into management having displayed their leadership skills within the union. In 'taking the company shilling' it is not necessary to lose your general beliefs/politics, in fact management needs to have differing views in order to arrive at the best solution. (I suspect we would agree that BA needs to improve areas of management).
I believe once this dispute is over you should consider using your skills either as a rep for your fellow union members, or take a step to improve BA management by joining it.
'Red' Knee.
Many union reps have moved into management having displayed their leadership skills within the union. In 'taking the company shilling' it is not necessary to lose your general beliefs/politics, in fact management needs to have differing views in order to arrive at the best solution. (I suspect we would agree that BA needs to improve areas of management).
I believe once this dispute is over you should consider using your skills either as a rep for your fellow union members, or take a step to improve BA management by joining it.
'Red' Knee.
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Do they do 75% contracts for management?
... sorry, MissM xxx
... sorry, MissM xxx
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BASSA membership in freefall?
Further to my post on 14th April giving membership of BASSA at 10,413 (having been 10,450 at the start of the month). I see the latest figure is 10,029 which in a matter of only a day and half must be regarded as a pretty significant loss. it will surely be down to four figures by the weekend at this rate, .
so, the ratio of BASSA/ non members is shortening. Perhaps soon they will be in the minority.
80% of members voting for the strike may (possibly) be a figure to be repeated. But as a percentage of the workforce, their influence would appear to be dropping.
A loss of 1% in two weeks has accelerated to 4% in two days! Bear in mind also that in November the membership was about 10,800 the loss of nearly 800 members in less than six months????
so, the ratio of BASSA/ non members is shortening. Perhaps soon they will be in the minority.80% of members voting for the strike may (possibly) be a figure to be repeated. But as a percentage of the workforce, their influence would appear to be dropping.
A loss of 1% in two weeks has accelerated to 4% in two days! Bear in mind also that in November the membership was about 10,800 the loss of nearly 800 members in less than six months????
Paxing All Over The World
wiggy
I do not dispute your three points. I am only saying that I find it remarkable that it continues to such an extent these days and that (of itself) shows the very extent to which the business still has to adjust to the 21st Century in western Europe. How it will change I do not know. But I know that it will change.
MissM Explains the hot towel issue well and binsleepen gave the logical reply. I realise that the issue was seen as 'the last straw' by some (or as a suitable 'last straw' by some) but the blame is not with BASSA. They simply did what any group of humans will do - which is to seek preferment for their own group, fair enough that is why they are there.
The blame lies with BA mgmt over an extended period of time. EVERY manager who gave in for a quite life is to blame. Every department boss, every senior manager, every BA CEO and all members of the board and their Chairmen across the last 20 years (since the last recession) - they are all to blame. Some will still be there but most will be on the golf course and with fat pensions. They should be ashamed that they had so lost control of their jobs that it could come to the point where pax who have paid a premium price may only get a hot towel depending on the mood of the CC.
If I have misjudged the situation - then please correct me.
My final "shot" on this.
1. Staff Travel generates revenue for BA.
2. Under the current law of the land it's impossible for BA to squeeze much, if any, extra work for the majority of 's pilots, can't comment for Cabin Crew.
3. Commuting is done in people's off duty time.
So short of changing the national rules for the prevention of fatigue, and/or banning traveling by air when off duty the only way BA can stop staff members commuting is by cutting pay. Is that what you are suggesting?
1. Staff Travel generates revenue for BA.
2. Under the current law of the land it's impossible for BA to squeeze much, if any, extra work for the majority of 's pilots, can't comment for Cabin Crew.
3. Commuting is done in people's off duty time.
So short of changing the national rules for the prevention of fatigue, and/or banning traveling by air when off duty the only way BA can stop staff members commuting is by cutting pay. Is that what you are suggesting?
MissM Explains the hot towel issue well and binsleepen gave the logical reply. I realise that the issue was seen as 'the last straw' by some (or as a suitable 'last straw' by some) but the blame is not with BASSA. They simply did what any group of humans will do - which is to seek preferment for their own group, fair enough that is why they are there.
The blame lies with BA mgmt over an extended period of time. EVERY manager who gave in for a quite life is to blame. Every department boss, every senior manager, every BA CEO and all members of the board and their Chairmen across the last 20 years (since the last recession) - they are all to blame. Some will still be there but most will be on the golf course and with fat pensions. They should be ashamed that they had so lost control of their jobs that it could come to the point where pax who have paid a premium price may only get a hot towel depending on the mood of the CC.
If I have misjudged the situation - then please correct me.
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From the "other" thread:
I can't see how BA can do anything but treat these feeble-minded oafs with anything but utter contempt.
These are just the kind of selfish, surly cabin crew members that as an SLF have put me off flying for BA. I doubt I'm alone in wishing BA would just get rid of people like this. Let them work stacking shelves at Tesco where they belong.
Not to mention the fact that the retarded individual that came out with this nonsense is too stupid to realise that BA have already won the war against their militancy.
THIS IS OUR CHANCE TO BEAT HIM,,,,,TW SHOULD TELL WW THAT IF HE DOESN'T COMPROMISE WITH A DEAL TODAY OR LATEST TOMORROW WE WILL GO ON STRIKE AGAIN IN 7 DAYS TIME...THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO PUT THE SERVICE BACK TO NORMAL BEFORE WE STRIKE AGAIN AND DISRUPT IT BADLY.....SO DON'T U THINK GUYS THIS IS THE TIME TO BACKFIRE???????
PLEASE BASSA DO SOMETHING TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO BRING HIM DOWN TO THE REAL WORLD.
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE BASSA DO SOMETHING TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO BRING HIM DOWN TO THE REAL WORLD.
PLEASE
PLEASE
These are just the kind of selfish, surly cabin crew members that as an SLF have put me off flying for BA. I doubt I'm alone in wishing BA would just get rid of people like this. Let them work stacking shelves at Tesco where they belong.
Not to mention the fact that the retarded individual that came out with this nonsense is too stupid to realise that BA have already won the war against their militancy.