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3 lost west of Brisbane Monday 29-8-22

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3 lost west of Brisbane Monday 29-8-22

Old 2nd Sep 2022, 13:30
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by john_tullamarine View Post
A bit of a worry back in the 'old'days but today, with all the modern technology, not so much! Portable GPS, iPad, hand held VHF, mobile phone, a couple of torches - good to go!

.. now, do tell us how that all works when you are out there at 0-dark-30, the main (ship's) battery is dead, whatever standby batteries are dead, and the panel likewise ? I would have thought still much the same sort of worry as in days of yore ? I don't see any reference in your list to flight instruments ? Let's see, the portable GPS will tell you where you are about to die, I guess you can play a quick game of whatever on the iPad, the handheld lets you tell someone that you are about to die, likewise the phone, and the torches will let you see the dead panel in glorious candlelight until you die .....
Or did I miss something along the way, there ?
I've done plenty of limited panel, quite successfully, but never no panel.
I don't see any reference in your list to flight instruments ?
I think you make light of the capability available in a Garmin portable GPS and an iPhone/iPad. Both will give you a moving map or flight instruments, the former with terrain warning!
Not sure how I am going to lose everything in an electrical failure (I have had two - one VFR in a C210 and the other IFR in IMC in a Bonanza), which I believe was the senario referred to, unless the panel is all electric. Personally I wouldn't fly in such a aircraft in anything other than 8/8 blue sky without independent battery powered AH and GPS - doesn't meet my risk profile!

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Old 2nd Sep 2022, 14:16
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Noone goes to work or goes flying meaning to make a mistake.
This pilot was much more experienced than the majority in the country. If this can happen to him, it could happen to many.
Hopefully we can use this event as a learning event.
[email protected] does happen.
Think about how the pilot was feeling in those last minutes. Make a plan on how you can avoid that. That's what's important.
i promise you he did his best.

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Old 2nd Sep 2022, 23:09
  #103 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by donpizmeov View Post
[email protected] does happen.
i promise you he did his best.
That would not fly (pardon the pun) with the general public. Do you think Alan Joyce could simply say ďsh1t does happenĒ after the loss of 737? The travelling fare paying public expect to board an aircraft and safely arrive at their destination and they equally expect the pilot(s) to be qualified, experienced and to fly in accordance with the required regulations. Professional pilots, be it in an A380 or Cessna 172 owe it to their passengers to get them there safely and if required, turn back.

Qantas flew / fly to Mount Hotham and regularly turned back in their Dash 8 due to weather and bus the passengers to the mountain via Albury or similar. It is what it is. They donít have get-there-itis. Not suggesting that what happened here, just observations in general.

I feel self embarrassment when I fly solo and scud run to a point that makes me uncomfortable and have to turn back with zero options. I canít even contemplate doing that with a passenger, as in, getting to that position in the first place as itís not fair on them.

During my second last AFR we headed towards bad weather through low clouds and hills. I told the instructor that I was ďcalling itĒ in terms of the AFR and the rules for VFR (my personal minimums were a bit lower though) and wanted to head back. She said it was still fine and not to worry and to continue on. I slowed right down and extended the flaps We got to a point where an abrupt 180 was required and she said that she didnít realise it was going to get that bad and I was lucky I was going slowly. Basically, I let her convince me that it was fine to continue. I was quietly very annoyed at her and myself afterwards. I wasnít overly concerned as I knew I could power up, hit the instruments and head home, however others may not have had that option available to them.

Iím not exactly sure as to the moral of my story, other than to say that there are cowboys (and girls) out there propagating this type of behaviour.
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Old 2nd Sep 2022, 23:38
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post

she didnít realise it was going to get that bad and I was lucky I was going slowly. Basically, I let her convince me that it was fine to continue.

Iím not exactly sure as to the moral of my story, other than to say that there are cowboys (and girls) out there propagating this type of behaviour.
So the instructor got caught out as well. Doesnít make them a cowboy (or girl).
What did you talk about during the debrief afterwards?
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Old 2nd Sep 2022, 23:56
  #105 (permalink)  
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I think you make light of the capability available in a Garmin portable GPS and an iPhone/iPad.

Having no exposure to either, I quite happily accept that they will do lots of useful and nice things.

Both will give you a moving map or flight instruments,

The map is fine, but tell me a bit more about the flight instruments. In particular, have you ever flown, under the hood, with all the aircraft instruments covered up, and then use, solely - as in nothing else, the portable flight instrument representation to maintain flight for an extended period of time ? That's the real world test and, if it doesn't work, where might that leave you in the event ..... ?

Not sure how I am going to lose everything in an electrical failure ... unless the panel is all electric.

In the typical heavy, when the ship's electrickery quits, you are back on the standby flight instruments ... until their batteries also quit .... then you are in the well-known situation of PYHBYLAKYAG. ANY sensible installation will have a similar arrangement, I suggest, as a (now retired) design signatory of many years' standing.

If you have some suck and blow flight instruments, that might be a saving grace, so long as you are not tangled up in icing conditions.


without independent battery powered AH and GPS

Usually, you would have standby power supplies to the emergency flight instruments ... but that only lasts for a while ....

I'm not trying to be a PITA here but, having a lot of IMC, night, and IFR flying in my history, this is a rather important consideration to follow through. It is my thought that many folks, not having tried their backup plans out in REALISTIC anger, may have unrealistic expectations of what is what ?

She said it was still fine and not to worry and to continue on

That's when you, as Captain Speaking and having just made the call, put it into action and turn around. I can still recall, as a young and newchum airline F/O, flying RM with the Type boss up to the property. I made some comment and was told, quite politely but firmly, "not even worth thinking about". That was, I suggest, the call you might make next time you find yourself in a like situation. The instructor was, no doubt, trying to achieve a training aim. That she made an unsatisfactory call is a problem but, I suggest, the main problem was sitting in your seat at the time. Again, as another anecdote, flying as a pretty senior B737 F/O, the captain, who was a mate of mind, made an observation to which I offered "you don't miss much". His response has always stayed with me - "I'm not allowed to". Same philosophy applies to bugsmashers as to airliners ?

Basically, I let her convince me that it was fine to continue.

Suckerbait stuff, that is.
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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 00:54
  #106 (permalink)  
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Yes, I did let her convince me, but deep down I wasnít worried as I knew I had a suitable out and was more than capable on executing on it. I guess you put faith in the instructor, however they are only human. In hindsight I probably have 3 times as many hours as her and my decision making is probably a little more finely tuned.

The debrief consisted of her telling me that in hindsight we should have turned around sooner. I hope she learnt something from that day. I did too - however what if she thinks she is right too? It was my aircraft and my life. I should have seen the writing on the wall when she started posting selfies on her Instagram during the flight.

I also learnt a valuable lesson on my next AFR. I asked if we could head to the designated low flying training area and fly under some powerlines. The highly experienced instructor said that he didnít think it was a good idea in my aircraft to do so given the wind conditions as my aircraft has a long wing. So we went over there anyway, but went well above the powerlines. When turning downwind near the powerline at 110+ knots, we got hit by a gust and and it rolled us to 45+ degrees and it would not respond to opposite control input. A combination of opposite rudder and backstick recovered the wing and we were good to go again after some puckering. Lesson there, you donít get that level of experience by accident.

Thatís why I value my AFRís and always have.

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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 01:27
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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I asked if we could head to the designated low flying training area and fly under some powerlines
Really? Some thing crop dusters do, but others!!!!
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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 01:35
  #108 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Really? Some thing crop dusters do, but others!!!!
The aircraft doesnít know itís under power lines.
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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 03:02
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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JT, I am aware of your background from the 'old PPRuNe'!
While not wishing to preempt the ATSB conclusions on this accident, I have my personal views based on 50 yrs of GA flying in Australia and New Zealand - mostly PVT/work related flying both VFR and IFR in SE aircraft, but also some IFR charter work in both countries.
I also have a personal connection to the pax on this flight, which has stirred me up to question, yet again, why these types of accidents keep happening.
My first experience of the fallout from this type of accident was soon after I got my PPL - a young bloke who learnt to fly with me was lost, along with his wife and a child on a flight from Archerfield to Bankstown.
Like many (most?) with a substantial experience background, I have put myself in life-threatening VFR into IMC situations on a number of occasions in the early days of my flying career, never with pax (although on one occasion in NZ my pax was a bloke in a coffin!), and the fact that I am writing this attests to the fact that I survived to tell the tale - by a combination of good training, quick descision making and LUCK!
As a low-time VFR PPL I descended into a layer of cloud that I 'knew' to be only a couple of hundred feet thick - it wasn't! I descended to 1000' about the highest point in the area - then climbed back out, turned back to the edge of the cloud bank and tried to get under it - I couldn't - before returning to my departure point.
By the time I had a few thousand hours, a CPL and IR, I could 'scud run' with the best! One day while trying to get to a cattle station in an area I thought I knew well, I flew down a road at low level just below the cloud base only to find myself in cloud. I immediately climbed and turned left and returned to my departure point. Some time later I discovered that had I turned right I most likely would have impacted a high phone tower I had forgotten about. That ended my scud running days!

The map is fine, but tell me a bit more about the flight instruments. In particular, have you ever flown, under the hood, with all the aircraft instruments covered up, and then use, solely - as in nothing else, the portable flight instrument representation to maintain flight for an extended period of time ? That's the real world test and, if it doesn't work, where might that leave you in the event ..... ?
Yes, I have! I have flown down the Hinchinbrook Channel under the hood at 500' with a safety pilot with reference to only GPS/accelerometer based 'flight instruments' on an iPad and a moving map with terrain warning on a Garmin portable GPS.

In the typical heavy, when the ship's electrickery quits, you are back on the standby flight instruments ... until their batteries also quit .... then you are in the well-known situation of PYHBYLAKYAG. ANY sensible installation will have a similar arrangement,
If fully charged at the outset, an iPad and a portable GPS should give you time to save your skin!

I'm not trying to be a PITA here but, having a lot of IMC, night, and IFR flying in my history, this is a rather important consideration to follow through. It is my thought that many folks, not having tried their backup plans out in REALISTIC anger, may have unrealistic expectations of what is what ?
My experience may not match yours in quantum but its reasonable for someone for whom flying was never a primary job, and interesting in its variety - from cattle mustering and glider/banner towing to quite a bit of single engine day/night IFR.

I am not advocating the routine use of portable electronic gadgets to justify pushing one's luck with weather, but the suggestion was that if you lose all of your panel in an EFIS cockpit you are going to die. Not if you are prepared and have thought the senario through.

The best preventative measures for what I believe is likely to be the cause of this accident and other like it are:
  1. Good training and currency
  2. Good preparation, including backup equipment and a quickly activated plan in your head for various circumstances that may arise
  3. A mental firewall against 'got-to-get-there-itis'
  4. Good in-flight decision making
  5. Always listen to that little voice in the back of your head when it says, "I don't like the look of this"!
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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 03:36
  #110 (permalink)  
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Not having played with any of the new toys, I have to take your comments without any critical test. I would, very much, like to see just what the story is, though, in anger. Thinking back to my early days and a few frights along the way ...

Certainly have to concur with your thoughts that preparation and knowledge go a long way to setting one up for a successful outcome ... providing there is a reasonable amount of practice in there, as well ... along with a healthy dosage of conservatism.
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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 04:59
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Having quite a bit of experience with GPS I have witnessed (and reported) on its failures. Its not a fool proof system, and one has to remember that TAWS is just a picture that represents a map of the area around your GPS calculated position. While GPS is accurate 99.99% of the time, certain installations will occasionally interpret that position badly or not tell you particularly well when its dropped out of 'GPS' mode, or fallen back to DR mode. I've been in an airliner using GNSS when the FMS system suddenly gave us a position alert for being 7 miles off calculated track, the GPS had disconnected due to lack of satellites (it could see) and it was using the local VOR to tell us the error. How it got to 7nm before telling us, and how ATS didn't pick it up either is a mystery, reported and moved on. However at Flight levels so no nasty hills around to ruin the day. If you are relying on the system to navigate hills without the system being in 'approach' mode where it does certain checks to ensure tracking integrity you might be surprised when both the hill pops up suddenly and the TAWS says its somewhere left of you. This is why TSO installations of GPS for IFR use is essential, as the annunciators for GPS/FMS failures are included to be in the pilots eyesight if a system drops RAIM or reverts to DR.

PS I've used IPADs for IFR flight bags and while the position is usually accurate, I have seen the plane icon do circles at times when it struggles with direction, so while I trust its derived navigation plot for roundabout navigation purposes, I don't really like its chances of continually providing attitude and heading information with the fidelity to stay upright for a length of time, and I definitely would not be navigating valleys below LSALT with it. Remember that GPS units need to see satellites, at low level below ridge height you could be masking some sats normally in view, and in the southern hemisphere you usually don't have heaps of spare sats.

Last edited by 43Inches; 3rd Sep 2022 at 05:10.
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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 05:55
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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43", my experience over the past 25+ yrs does not align with your comments. Not that I am suggesting that you are incorrect, just that my personal experience with Sony Pixus, Garmin Pilot III, Garmin 296/396/496, Garmin 250XL, Garmin 430W/530W, flying all over Oz, differs. It has always amazed me just how accurate these things are. I have only seen the G430 in the Bonanza go into DR mode once for a few minutes in 800 hrs, and I currently have 10 satellites on the Humminbird chartplotter sitting on my office desk in Townsville, without it having a clear view of the sky. The GPS tracker in my boat is hidden under the deck and can't 'see' the sky at all - but it still sends its position accurate to a couple of meters.

I am NOT advocating the routine use of handheld GPSs or iPhone/iPad as anything other than backup - but when you have screwed up and your life is on the line, I would not hesitate to take my chances that one could save my skin!
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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 06:15
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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The aircraft doesn’t know it’s under power lines
It sure knows when you hit them, as will you. Have my own wire story, flew THROUGH them and avoided touching any, above or below, all luck and no judgement involved. Making a bald statement such as yours does not send a good message to the community, wires surveyed from the ground previously, low flying authorisation etc. For those who think low flying is something to be flagrantly indulged.
The ATSB found no evidence of any engine or airframe defect that may have contributed to the accident. The pilot did not hold any approval to conduct low flying and had not received training in the identification of hazards or in the operating techniques for flight close to the ground. There was no operational reason identified for the pilot to have been flying at such a low altitude on the day of the accident. The evidence also indicated that the pilot had a history of unauthorized low flying.
https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/573804...4131_final.pdf
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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 06:46
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Have my own wire story, flew THROUGH them and avoided touching any, above or below, all luck and no judgement involved.
There's gotta be a story behind this, care to share the details?
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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 06:56
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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43", my experience over the past 25+ yrs does not align with your comments. Not that I am suggesting that you are incorrect, just that my personal experience with Sony Pixus, Garmin Pilot III, Garmin 296/396/496, Garmin 250XL, Garmin 430W/530W, flying all over Oz, differs. It has always amazed me just how accurate these things are. I have only seen the G430 in the Bonanza go into DR mode once for a few minutes in 800 hrs, and I currently have 10 satellites on the Humminbird chartplotter sitting on my office desk in Townsville, without it having a clear view of the sky. The GPS tracker in my boat is hidden under the deck and can't 'see' the sky at all - but it still sends its position accurate to a couple of meters.
I fly for a living using GPS so a lot of hours navigating by it, while its 99.9% foolproof I've had several missed approaches due to no RAIM at the FAF or past it, and several events where the GPS navigation solution became suspect and was confirmed off track. Some of the events were unit related and others satellite or atmospheric related. Ice on the GPS antenna can affect it as well as moisture in the wrong places. It is not regular, but it does happen. This is where installation type really can make a difference. The key being what information is displayed if the navigation unit is operating in a degraded mode, and when will it tell you so. For instance in a TSO unit will not allow operation in approach mode without RAIM, so it will dump flight guidance and make it clear you don't have the required fidelity.

This talk about trusting the unit when low among hills without having RAIM protection shows a lack of understanding of the drawbacks of GPS, like any other navaid.

The iPad as far as I know does not tell you if it has good/bad or no GPS signal.

This is also the issue with creating your own approaches in IMC, without the required programming it will most likely fly in terminal or en-route mode, which means different tolerances, alerting and RAIM requirements.
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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 07:00
  #116 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
It sure knows when you hit them, as will you. Have my own wire story, flew THROUGH them and avoided touching any, above or below, all luck and no judgement involved. Making a bold statement such as yours does not send a good message to the community, wires surveyed from the ground previously, low flying authorisation etc. For those who think low flying is something to be flagrantly indulged.https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/573804...4131_final.pdf
Iíll reiterate that the aircraft doesnít know of the existence of powerlines, nor does it know itís flying over water. My flight was 100% legitimate, legal and endorsed. My comments were regarding human factors and experience, just like this whole thread.
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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 07:06
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I've flown under power lines before, intentionally, they spanned across the river we were operating out of, and were very high. The trick is to not hit them when above or below, ie don't use the through option. Flying under a normal power line on farmland, hmm, good luck sighting the single wire between the poles, your eyes are better than mine, and without sighting you are guessing how much sag is in the line between poles.

I know one account of a C152 hitting powerlines from below (single wire farm line), ripped a few feet out of the leading edge but flung it back into the sky, and they made it back to the airport using full power just above the stall.
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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 08:03
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post
I fly for a living using GPS so a lot of hours navigating by it, while its 99.9% foolproof I've had several missed approaches due to no RAIM at the FAF or past it, and several events where the GPS navigation solution became suspect and was confirmed off track. Some of the events were unit related and others satellite or atmospheric related. Ice on the GPS antenna can affect it as well as moisture in the wrong places. It is not regular, but it does happen. This is where installation type really can make a difference. The key being what information is displayed if the navigation unit is operating in a degraded mode, and when will it tell you so. For instance in a TSO unit will not allow operation in approach mode without RAIM, so it will dump flight guidance and make it clear you don't have the required fidelity.
This talk about trusting the unit when low among hills without having RAIM protection shows a lack of understanding of the drawbacks of GPS, like any other navaid.
The iPad as far as I know does not tell you if it has good/bad or no GPS signal.
This is also the issue with creating your own approaches in IMC, without the required programming it will most likely fly in terminal or en-route mode, which means different tolerances, alerting and RAIM requirements.
This talk about trusting the unit when low among hills without having RAIM protection shows a lack of understanding of the drawbacks of GPS, like any other navaid.
I understand the drawbacks of GPS perfectly well, thank you! Suggest you re-read the last sentence in my post! Here it is, as you seemed to have missed it!

[QUOTE]I am NOT advocating the routine use of handheld GPSs or iPhone/iPad as anything other than backup - but when you have screwed up and your life is on the line, I would not hesitate to take my chances that one could save my skin![/QUOTE]
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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 09:30
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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The main issue I'm pushing here is that while these fancy new screens, instruments and devices have merit they can also lure you into thinking you are somehow safer if such an event happens. This means that the user may be willing to take greater risks and push on in conditions beyond what they would normally bug out on if they were in a basic steam driven aircraft. This is what I pointed out earlier with the many Cirrus pilots that have been caught out in the US and so on.

The truth is unless you have practiced and maintain some currency in this emergency procedure you will inevitably pannick and get stuck in some half arsed maneuver and lose control of your aircraft. It all sounds easy, just have the screens, some devices, just do this if I enter cloud, It will be so straight forward. NO IT WON'T! Unless you have strict discipline to follow a well thought out escape plan it will still be pure luck if you survive. And lets be honest, if you were that great pilot in the first place, you would not put yourself in the situation to start with.
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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 10:41
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I can't believe the bullshit debates that's going on here about pilots flying into IMC when they must be flying visually, no matter their experience, aircraft type they are flying, type of operation or country they are flying in. The ground will always kill you when you smack into it when you have lost SA rooting around in the shit!! Who the hell tough you people to fly, licence from a wheat bix box?

There are only a few survival rules in aviation, and this is one of them. Have you people ever seen a pilot and passengers splattered in a wreckage after a CFIT accident? I have and it wasn't pleasant, and I knew the pilot!!!
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