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3 lost west of Brisbane Monday 29-8-22

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3 lost west of Brisbane Monday 29-8-22

Old 1st Sep 2022, 05:17
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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To those VFR pilots who think that an uncertified EFIS might save them if they accidentally enter IMC, I have a suggestion;

Arrange a flight in an IFR rated and EFIS equipped aircraft with a qualified IFR instructor.

Arrange a VFR flight and under instruction, deliberately simulate accidental entry into IMC.

You might be surprised at the change in your situation, then you need to think about your options.

You might find itís not as easy and safe as it sounds.


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Old 1st Sep 2022, 07:02
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Squawk7700, I was not for one minute suggesting any conspiracy theory. I still say a professional pilot should be able to keep it blue side up and was thinking more of a medical event or equipment failure. I have never had anything to with facebook so I have no idea on what you are rambling on about. For those waxing on about Neil Williams, his accident was CFIT not loss of control, not that the outcome is any different.

By the way, an EFIS screen with water ingestion goes blank.

Last edited by By George; 1st Sep 2022 at 09:06.
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 07:08
  #83 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
To those VFR pilots who think that an uncertified EFIS might save them if they accidentally enter IMC, I have a suggestion;
What is the difference between a certified and uncertified EFIS in your opinion and how would that make any difference? The Dynon Skyview is AFAIK still uncertified, has synthetic vision, terrain alerts, traffic awareness, autopilot availability, approaches and other features. Is this less safe than a certified Avidyne in a Cirrus SR20?

Are you basing your opinion from your flying experience in IFR and IMC conditions, or talk at the aero club bar?
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 07:27
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In regard to RAAF Amberley ATC, you couldn't ask for more, always helpful and accommodating and two weeks ago even arranged onwards clearance through Brisbane when I offered to drop below the steps.
I’ve been flying through Amberley over 30 years now and had no issues. For the ATC it must be interesting, they get to deal with all-sorts from Drifters doing 50 knots to fast jets.
Based on many years of experience I mostly agree with the above - but not always so.
A few years ago I departed Toowoomba on an PVT IFR plan direct to Redcliffe. On calling up Amberley as directed, their expectation was that I would descend to VFR below the steps, and my refusal to do so (I was not convinced that I could maintain VMC) was not well received. My recollection is that I was placed in a holding pattern for 10-15 min and passed to BN Appr who sent me on my merry IFR way to Redcliffe.

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Old 1st Sep 2022, 08:42
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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What is the difference between a certified and uncertified EFIS in your opinion and how would that make any difference? The Dynon Skyview is AFAIK still uncertified, has synthetic vision, terrain alerts, traffic awareness, autopilot availability, approaches and other features. Is this less safe than a certified Avidyne in a Cirrus SR20?
I hope that is a rhetorical question. Certified means it has passed the tests required to be able to say it is safe, non-certified is unknown. If its passed the tests required for the specific operation then it will be reliable for all the situations posed for it in the conditions it could face in that type of flying, and or limitations specified where it will not be 100% reliable. Certification may or may not include installation requirements, that make it more than a dash ornament and integrate with the aircraft systems and pilot ergonomics. Things that come to mind for this type of topic is topple limits for attitude instruments, non certified it could topple in moderate maneuvers making it useless in recovery from unusual attitudes. Therefore its not going to help you recover an aircraft in a UA when thrown in cloud suddenly.

Also to add Binghis' point as to how weather, altitude, heat and so on proof the unit is. Some of the recent uncertified eperimental stuff is fantastic, but saying all new EFIS systems will perform the same is misleading. Some units will have been produced with far superior performance to certified stuff, but not certified to keep cost down, however that means you never quite know why they didn't bother to certify it.

Last edited by 43Inches; 1st Sep 2022 at 08:59.
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 09:43
  #86 (permalink)  
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Iím aware of the difference, Iím just wondering how Sunfish came to the conclusion that an uncertified unit wonít get you out of a bind. It makes no sense. Weíd better all throw away our $10k Dynons if thatís the case. Plus Iíd better let all the IFR guys in their RVís know that they need to upgrade.

Last edited by Squawk7700; 1st Sep 2022 at 10:20.
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 10:34
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Yeah but simplistically saying EFIS will save you is misleading. There's a few options and some are great, some not so great, depends what is fitted. More important than EFIS if in IMC inadvertently at a safe altitude would be an autopilot of some sort. At low alt sudden IMC around the trees and hills takes quick thinking and a lot of luck to survive, the emphasis on luck, as its been proven the best equipment will still hit the ground hard if you try.
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 11:25
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Iíve been saying what youíre saying in all of my above posts and I agree, but I donít agree with this certified versus uncertified tripe. Give me a Dynon and AP servos and day of the week versus the factory AP from a 1972 Cessna.
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 11:40
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Squawk, there is nothing wrong with Dynon Skyview EFIS, quite the reverse, use it me self, there are now certified STC’d versions for a lot of aircraft.

What I am suggesting is that if as a VFR Pilot you want to legally and safely experience what it’s like to experience VMC into IMC, then try it for real with an IFR qualified instructor in a certified EFIS equipped IFR capable aircraft and have the instructor set up a realistic scenario for you.

Foggles don’t cut it and neither does playing with those “180 turn” and “level” buttons on a nice sunny day. Try it for real. If you haven’t experienced it before, then you are in for a hell of a shock, that’s all I need to say.

‘’I am aware of a few RV drivers and others who talk matter of factly about their uncertified IFR exploits. Don’t listen to them.

Last edited by Sunfish; 1st Sep 2022 at 11:51.
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 12:25
  #90 (permalink)  
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Without speculating on exactly what caused this accident, simple fact is that donít go IMC in anything below the LSAT unless doing an IAP otherwise it will KILL YOU!

I deal with the shit every day when flying in PNG, done it yesterday and Iím sure Iím going to do it today again and tomorrow, and thatís in big aeroplanes in the bush in shit weather amongst big mountains.

Experience, having had a few mates die in CFIT accidents together with having been to accident sites during investigations and witnessing the absolute carnage and devastation is enough to convince me not to put an aeroplane somewhere where it shouldnít be.

If youíre IMC below LSALT and not visual if opening VFR or visually, you have absolutely no right being there - forget the rules this shit will KILL YOU and anyone on the aircraft with you, and also maybe anyone you might hit on the ground during the impact.
Wot Duck Pilot said, +1

Especially the PNG bit. Been there, done that, albeit in Bongos and C402's.
Got the soiled jocks to prove it! Well...not anymore, but you get my drift..
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 22:34
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post
Iíve been saying what youíre saying in all of my above posts and I agree, but I donít agree with this certified versus uncertified tripe. Give me a Dynon and AP servos and day of the week versus the factory AP from a 1972 Cessna.
Me too Squawk. Dual Dynons with OzR maps on them, a VHF radio with built in intercom and a KLN-90 for en-route navigation rounds out the RV's panel.

I would never deliberately fly in IMC with my setup - I have a single ADAHRS with no backup as it is strictly VFR only till then, however, I have no problems with trusting it to keep me alive if I do screwup and entry into IMC is the only option. Coupled with OzRunways (and AvPlan too, I believe) you can even have it fly the RNAV approach with the muppet pilot only controlling the vertical portion. With the autopilot modes set to GPS & IAS HOLD and selected altitude set to the Minima you control descent rate with power and then only have to touch the throttle while you contemplate how you are not going to get yourself into this situation again...I have tried this several times to get myself comfortable with it, and it works well.

BUT - as above I am not recommending this as a means for VFR pilots to deliberately fly IMC - only as a means to keep you alive with the systems you have on board if you screwup and find yourself in such a situation. Know your systems and their capabilities and get them in play early in the piece and you stand at least a decent chance of being able to tell someone about your mistake after the fact.
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Old 2nd Sep 2022, 01:03
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Originally Posted by KRviator View Post
BUT - as above I am not recommending this as a means for VFR pilots to deliberately fly IMC - only as a means to keep you alive with the systems you have on board if you screwup and find yourself in such a situation. Know your systems and their capabilities and get them in play early in the piece and you stand at least a decent chance of being able to tell someone about your mistake after the fact.
Don't neglect the Startle Factor. If you're scud-running (as some have suggested this guy might have been), it really doesn't matter what gadgetry the aircraft is fitted with nor your knowledge of your systems nor how current (or otherwise) your instrument rating may be - SA is king and the key to your survival will be how fast you admit to yourself that you're now in the soup and mentally get yourself inside the aircraft and keep flying it.

As pointed out upthread, if you're below LSALT in mountains, the odds really aren't on your side - and IMHO, the more electronic data, alarms and flashing lights you're confronted with by your whizz-bang EFIS gadgetry when you finally get around to looking, the longer it's going to take to filter out the important from the less important. In many ways, the simpler the avionics, perhaps the better.. but instinctively pushing the Blue Button isn't going to save you if you're heading, wings level in cloud, for the side of the nearest hill.

We all know how it ends: "TERRAIN! PULL UP!! PULL UP!!!" ...right before the stall.

Last edited by PiperCameron; 2nd Sep 2022 at 03:08.
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Old 2nd Sep 2022, 02:46
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Originally Posted by Beryllium Erbium View Post
Sounds like you're ready for a PIR KRviator. Find a place that will train you in your own aircraft, there are a few that are not afraid of RV's.
I have thought about the PIFR but the RV's not yet equipped, BE. I did my BFR a few days ago with the CFI in the RV and he was thoroughly impressed with the integration and information available on the Dynon's, from the colour-coded high terrain on the SynVis down to the geo-referenced OzRunways charts to the WiFi flight plan transfer on-the-fly (pardon the horrible pun here).
Originally Posted by Piper Cameron
Don't neglect the Startle Factor. If you're scud-running (as some have suggested this guy might have been), it really doesn't matter what gadgetry the aircraft is fitted with nor your knowledge of your systems nor how current (or otherwise) your instrument rating may be - SA is king and the key to your survival will be how fast you admit to yourself that you're now in the soup and mentally get yourself inside the aircraft and keep flying it.
Nailed it, PC.

That realization and admission of "Oh shit, oh shit, I've stuffed up and now it's real" is a big thing. Denial will kill you. Once you admit to yourself you've done the "VFR into IMC" mistake, you're spot on about your chances of survival. The more you procrastinate about that decision in deteriorating weather, the less time you have to get stable on instruments while you can and start climbing straight ahead to get some terrain clearance and help from ATC.

In part, that's why I've done the practice with my system, to (hopefully) convince me to make that call early in the piece, because I know what I have and what it can do to keep me alive. I often wonder about why many pilots appear fearful of admitting they've made this error - ATC have checklists specifically for VFR-into-IMC and will always go above and beyond to get you home in one piece if you tell 'em!
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Old 2nd Sep 2022, 03:20
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Originally Posted by KRviator View Post
In part, that's why I've done the practice with my system, to (hopefully) convince me to make that call early in the piece, because I know what I have and what it can do to keep me alive. I often wonder about why many pilots appear fearful of admitting they've made this error - ATC have checklists specifically for VFR-into-IMC and will always go above and beyond to get you home in one piece if you tell 'em!
True that, KR. I suspect having expensive passengers on board (with family generally being the most expensive) only adds to the fear.. and the resulting delay.

An admission from me: I've trained on both glass and steam and kinda prefer steam... Why? Because it doesn't scream at me when something breaks. I know that already, because when it happens my front seat pax is already screaming at me! Aviate, first - everything else second. The pax I can silence, but have you ever tried to silence the alarm on your EFIS in the middle of an emergency? You haven't really done the practice with your system until you've incorporated the sound of the alarm going off - multiple times - each time you silence it. After all, it's not going to go off unless it's an emergency.

Stay safe up there!


Edit to add: Alternator Failure is a good one to use for alarm practice.
As a tiny aside, I discovered during a long VFR nav a while back with one of my instructors on board and no cloud to worry about, that the '30 minute minimum' ship's battery duration indicated in the POH, whilst great in the USA, may not be all that helpful down under where airports can be quite a distance away. We were an hour out from YMMB when I had an alternator failure for real. After silencing the initial alarm, and the subsequent 'low bus volts' one, over the next 1/2 hour or so we lost the PFD, then MFD, then radios in the YMMB circuit and finally the transponder after touchdown. The standby instruments and green light from the tower all worked just fine and was good practice ...but trying to work out how to shut the bloody alarm off on the Avidyne was harder than you'd think!

Last edited by PiperCameron; 2nd Sep 2022 at 04:09.
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Old 2nd Sep 2022, 05:19
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over the next 1/2 hour or so we lost the PFD, then MFD, then radios in the YMMB circuit and finally the transponder after touchdown.

Hence the critical importance of load shedding at the earliest opportunity, keeping only that which is absolutely essential for the extant circumstances. It's a bit like the air above and the runway behind ... once the amp hours have gone, they can't be prayed back into the system at the time regardless of whichever god to whom you might choose to pray. A real worry are some of the insidious failures which can occur without quite enough alerting to the pilot ...

Day VMC ... ho-hum, perhaps a quick radio call to advise situation and intent and then turn it all off .... dark night IMC .... oh dear. It is to emphasise this concern that we routinely practice flight on standby in sim exercises. There, it all goes black at the appointed time and I am talking about REALLY black. Captain Training only needs one exposure to get the story well and truly fixed in the mind for the next time around. Having said that, generally one can cobble together a recovery in the majority of circumstances providing we can leave the panic thing at home. Might be a tad sweaty at the time.
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Old 2nd Sep 2022, 05:47
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Originally Posted by john_tullamarine View Post
over the next 1/2 hour or so we lost the PFD, then MFD, then radios in the YMMB circuit and finally the transponder after touchdown.

Hence the critical importance of load shedding at the earliest opportunity, keeping only that which is absolutely essential for the extant circumstances. It's a bit like the air above and the runway behind ... once the amp hours have gone, they can't be prayed back into the system at the time regardless of whichever god to whom you might choose to pray. A real worry are some of the insidious failures which can occur without quite enough alerting to the pilot ...

Day VMC ... ho-hum, perhaps a quick radio call to advise situation and intent and then turn it all off .... dark night IMC .... oh dear. It is to emphasise this concern that we routinely practice flight on standby in sim exercises. There, it all goes black at the appointed time and I am talking about REALLY black. Captain Training only needs one exposure to get the story well and truly fixed in the mind for the next time around. Having said that, generally one can cobble together a recovery in the majority of circumstances providing we can leave the panic thing at home. Might be a tad sweaty at the time.
Sounds like fun! ...but you're quite right there - and being Day VMC for me it was indeed ho-hum, with the instructor calling the tower on the phone and then a quick call on radio closer in (while we could).

The real eye-openers for me that day were:
(a) Unless you're willing to shut down your fancy power-hungry PFD&MFD and go straight to standby instruments, the ship's batteries never last as long as you think they will!, and
(b) QF32 Syndrome (constantly acknowledging alarms as you lose various parts of your system) adds quite a bit to the workload of an average GA pilot. Better hope you're not scud-running in marginal weather over tiger country at the time, looking for a safe place to put down.
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Old 2nd Sep 2022, 07:38
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Day VMC ... ho-hum, perhaps a quick radio call to advise situation and intent and then turn it all off .... dark night IMC .... oh dear. It is to emphasise this concern that we routinely practice flight on standby in sim exercises. There, it all goes black at the appointed time and I am talking about REALLY black. Captain Training only needs one exposure to get the story well and truly fixed in the mind for the next time around. Having said that, generally one can cobble together a recovery in the majority of circumstances providing we can leave the panic thing at home. Might be a tad sweaty at the time.
A bit of a worry back in the 'old'days but today, with all the modern technology, not so much!
Portable GPS, iPad, hand held VHF, mobile phone, a couple of torches - good to go!
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Old 2nd Sep 2022, 10:12
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Squawk 7700

reference the guy flying to Benambra. Did ya ever think maybe the Sale airspace may have been chokers with Pc21s doing random manoeuvres laterally and vertically in their airspace. Are they supposed to tell all the PC 21 s, in THEIR airspace, get out of the way, lightie coming thru
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Old 2nd Sep 2022, 12:18
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A bit of a worry back in the 'old'days but today, with all the modern technology, not so much! Portable GPS, iPad, hand held VHF, mobile phone, a couple of torches - good to go!

.. now, do tell us how that all works when you are out there at 0-dark-30, the main (ship's) battery is dead, whatever standby batteries are dead, and the panel likewise ? I would have thought still much the same sort of worry as in days of yore ? I don't see any reference in your list to flight instruments ? Let's see, the portable GPS will tell you where you are about to die, I guess you can play a quick game of whatever on the iPad, the handheld lets you tell someone that you are about to die, likewise the phone, and the torches will let you see the dead panel in glorious candlelight until you die .....

Or did I miss something along the way, there ?

I've done plenty of limited panel, quite successfully, but never no panel.
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Old 2nd Sep 2022, 12:20
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Originally Posted by Trevor the lover View Post
Squawk 7700

reference the guy flying to Benambra. Did ya ever think maybe the Sale airspace may have been chokers with Pc21s doing random manoeuvres laterally and vertically in their airspace. Are they supposed to tell all the PC 21 s, in THEIR airspace, get out of the way, lightie coming thru
It was a Friday morning and they were not flying. They were not operating on any of the 4 frequencies that I was monitoring, not on OzRunways, AvPlan, ADSB-IN or FR24. Safe to say that they were not operating and I of course took that into considering before making above comments.

As a matter of interest, for giggles itís worth checking how the PC21ís operate down that way if youíre considering going over there. Youíll notice that they will operate as a single aircraft in each of the training zones, Maffra, Jack Smithís Lake and Paynesville are the most common areas.

Of course, I got my clearance, so it canít have been chockers.

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