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3 lost west of Brisbane Monday 29-8-22

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3 lost west of Brisbane Monday 29-8-22

Old 30th Aug 2022, 13:33
  #61 (permalink)  
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We donít get the same level of service down south.

I was flying from Moorabbin to Benambra for Ben Buckleys funeral. Got near Warragul and called in to East Sale Military for a clearance. Got it fine, but the poor chap about 15 miles behind me tracking from Lilydale to Benambra called up and they would only give him a direct track to Benambra, over some of the worst tiger country in Australia. They said it was the only route available for clearance. Poor chap had no options and responded with, ďOk, weíll I guess the Rotax 912 is a reliable engineĒ and continued on.

I couldnít see how he could have done anything else to be safer, other than turn around.

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Old 30th Aug 2022, 15:08
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Old 30th Aug 2022, 16:14
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ducked over the range near Pilton, then ducked down one of the valleys running
I would chose which valley very, very carefully as there is a major powerline crossing N/S.
Having flown down Flagstone Ck following the Moonie pipeline numerous time over a 10 year period, 1700 amsl is the lowest altitude until you have visually passed over the powerline.

If the cloud is on the range, forget it.

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Old 30th Aug 2022, 21:55
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post
We donít get the same level of service down south.

I was flying from Moorabbin to Benambra for Ben Buckleys funeral. Got near Warragul and called in to East Sale Military for a clearance. Got it fine, but the poor chap about 15 miles behind me tracking from Lilydale to Benambra called up and they would only give him a direct track to Benambra, over some of the worst tiger country in Australia. They said it was the only route available for clearance. Poor chap had no options and responded with, ďOk, weíll I guess the Rotax 912 is a reliable engineĒ and continued on.

I couldnít see how he could have done anything else to be safer, other than turn around.
Iíve been through the Sale airspace in VFR lighties multiple times as well, and they were nothing but helpful. If your mate couldnít get the clearance he wanted, it was almost certainly because there was another aircraft in the way. Perhaps offering to change level or hold for a couple of minutes could have helped? Sorry, but I find it difficult to believe that he ďhad no optionsĒ. The guys in the tower usually do want to help, but itís a two way street.
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Old 30th Aug 2022, 22:12
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Originally Posted by desert goat View Post
Iíve been through the Sale airspace in VFR lighties multiple times as well, and they were nothing but helpful. If your mate couldnít get the clearance he wanted, it was almost certainly because there was another aircraft in the way. Perhaps offering to change level or hold for a couple of minutes could have helped? Sorry, but I find it difficult to believe that he ďhad no optionsĒ. The guys in the tower usually do want to help, but itís a two way street.
You also need to remember itís a training facility and some pilots donít feel comfortable or arenít experienced enough to know to ask them for options. You feel like ATC should be the ones that give you the options, not you offering them. The only other aircraft in the vicinity was mine, I was a good distance ahead and I was faster.

Iím not trying to say that mine is bigger, however Iíve been through there probably in excess of 200 times and rarely are the interactions the same. Whilst there is a playbook for ATC, there also a human element there and itís the same for pilots, who knows what youíll do or say on your next flight, then throw in the different weather each day.
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Old 30th Aug 2022, 22:57
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Yeah that’s fair enough, and it’s certainly fair to say that there is an issue with some pilots feeling intimidated by controlled airspace, particularly if it is denoted as a restricted area with red ink/shading on their charts. Not sure if that had any bearing at all on this current accident, since the PIC was a fairly experienced guy, but it is perhaps something to think about.
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Old 30th Aug 2022, 23:01
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post
https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/view...ument%20rating.

An interesting study paper into VFR into IMC accidents.

Of note table 4, 32% of all VFR into IMC accidents were instrument rated pilots, so having an IR is no cure for this.

Also interesting that 82% of pilots involved in accidents were aged over 40, only 18% were aged under 40. No surprises though that 60% were under 1000 hours TT.

Figure 9 was a good graph of what is the problem, education, private pilots are not trained nearly enough on weather awareness and interpretation and exposure to real world environments is haphazard.

It was good to note that the trend was downward.

I agree that quality IF rated pilots can reduce the occurrence of VFR into IMC accidents, as does additional type specific training. But the huge missing chunk here is just basic understanding of weather and the dangers of operating in or near IMC. Especially the way weather interacts with terrain in valleys and other choke points that you can get trapped in, or lured into. Then if you are trapped on top, even if you stuffed up, ask for assistance.

I have heard several instances on the radio where a VFR pilot has asked for assistance from ATS, followed their instructions and I'm happy to say none I've heard live have ended badly.
Good post. I however am not a huge fan of statistics or data as it's presentation, although correct, is often not presenting the whole picture. In this case the 82% of accidents being with pilots in the over 40 age group is entirely correct.and the additional info of less than 1000 TT is the pertinent point. Most people wanting to fly do not have the funds to do so until older, so we have older pilots with low hours.

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Old 31st Aug 2022, 01:24
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I have to say - getting a bit sick of the "clapped out engine / steam gauges are unsafe" argument, which is revived here.
It is highly likely this was a passenger transport, paid charter, flight (given that the pilot was involved with a scenic flight rotary wing operation, it is reasonable to assume that the relevant regs should not come as a complete surprise)
Charter operators must replace engine every 2000 hours / 12 years to carry fare paying pax.
Any reasonable charter operator would be replacing an engine every 3-4 years (based on 50 hours a month, on average). Hardly old, then.
The 100hrlys would be happening every 6 weeks to 2 months (on 50 hours a month, average), and must be signed off by a LAME - so it is his licence as well if this is a mechanical issue.
The statement has been made that glass cockpits are more reliable / benefical than steam gauges.
I have flown both, and have found - in my personal experience - that glass cockpits don't react well to Outback dust and dirt.
I have also found that for a pilot inexperienced on a glass cockpit, "chasing the numbers" can be a huge trap.

It is my personal belief, that the most dangerous component on any aircraft is the nut on the control seat.

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Old 31st Aug 2022, 02:22
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The most dangerous thing on an aircraft, is a schedule.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 03:37
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It is highly likely this was a passenger transport, paid charter, flight (given that the pilot was involved with a scenic flight rotary wing operation, it is reasonable to assume that the relevant regs should not come as a complete surprise) Charter operators must replace engine every 2000 hours / 12 years to carry fare paying pax.
If that were to be true then I am even more astounded. I was of the assumption it was a private type operation flown by a friend. If it was a charter why wasn't it in a ME IFR aircraft?

I have to say - getting a bit sick of the "clapped out engine / steam gauges are unsafe" argument, which is revived here.
It's not about safe/unsafe it's about risk. As aircraft get more expensive you reduce risk right up to a airliner size aircraft where pretty much most of the risk is reduced by multi engine turbine, redundant systems and two pilots. People usually don't charter airliners because it cost to much.
Interestingly in Australia I have heard the argument from clients of "it's because we can" that they charter VFR SE aircraft. Yet when the same people charter aircraft in a foreign country it's a multi engine turbine. The reason it's that way is because in some countries a King Air or even a Lear Jet is the cheapest aircraft you can get.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 06:55
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Neville_Nobody:

A PC12 and a C208 can be - and often are - both licenced to carry fare paying passengers at night or in IMC, so ME is not necessarily a requirement for fare paying passenger transport ops under IFR or in IMC.
In this particular case, the actual weather (don't know about the forecast - did not see it) may have suggested that an IFR aircraft and a pilot current and confident in IMC may have been prudent.
If this was a private flight, then a private pilot can fly non-fare paying passengers in IMC or at night is a SE aircraft - provided the aircraft is IFR rated, and the pilot is licenced and current to fly IFR.
If the pilot wasn't IFR current or confident, then IMHO it's always best not to go anywhere near IMC until the pilot gets that sorted.

"In some countries a King Air or even a Lear Jet is the cheapest aircraft you can get".
That's a double edged sword, isn't it.
Some of those countries also don't have the same level of regulatory oversight or safety requirements that Australia does, that make Aussie aviation both ludicrously expensive and (in general) mechanically safer than overseas.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 19:05
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Without speculating on exactly what caused this accident, simple fact is that donít go IMC in anything below the LSAT unless doing an IAP otherwise it will KILL YOU!

I deal with the shit every day when flying in PNG, done it yesterday and Iím sure Iím going to do it today again and tomorrow, and thatís in big aeroplanes in the bush in shit weather amongst big mountains.

Experience, having had a few mates die in CFIT accidents together with having been to accident sites during investigations and witnessing the absolute carnage and devastation is enough to convince me not to put an aeroplane somewhere where it shouldnít be.

If youíre IMC below LSALT and not visual if opening VFR or visually, you have absolutely no right being there - forget the rules this shit will KILL YOU and anyone on the aircraft with you, and also maybe anyone you might hit on the ground during the impact.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 23:34
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Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was View Post
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 23:41
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Something odd about this accident. Experienced professional pilot close to retirement (two months away). That aeroplane has gone down like a lawn dart in the classical stall/spin, spiral dive loss of control way. Little damage to surrounding trees and all the big bits seem to be there. Shame we now have to wait two years to learn anything about the possible cause.

In regard to RAAF Amberley ATC, you couldn't ask for more, always helpful and accommodating and two weeks ago even arranged onwards clearance through Brisbane when I offered to drop below the steps.
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 00:05
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Hmmm… I get the feeling some would be visualising the pilot of VH-EHM as being an ‘under pressure’ scud runner during the flight. May not be the case. He were a helicopter pilot and a fixed wing pilot. What is considered scud running by a fixed wing pilot is ops normal for a helicopter pilot - different minima’s.

There has been some comment on the meandering track of the flight from Dalby. Whilst the end of the flight track is likely wx related, the entire track may not all be wx related. Any pilot who has carried a person who is into property investment knows that there can be multiple diversions due to just having a look-see at property Xyz. If the intention prior to the flight is to do a bit of farm look-see then it would explain a VFR flight in a high wing aircraft well suited to the job.

It would be interesting to know just what was on the panel of EHM. If it had one of the big new GPS type map screens then the ability to ‘thread the needle’ may very well be there. Although, if all yer see is a screen full of ‘terrain red’ then it can be a bit hard to define - depends on brand, model, and settings.

I still put forward the possibility of a full an avionics screen failure due water shorting the electrics. The pilot having a screen failure then had the option of straight ahead climb or turning back onto a known valley whilst climbing.

As always, I’ll have a look at the ATSB report before ‘judging’ the pilot.





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Old 1st Sep 2022, 00:18
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Originally Posted by By George View Post
In regard to RAAF Amberley ATC, you couldn't ask for more, always helpful and accommodating and two weeks ago even arranged onwards clearance through Brisbane when I offered to drop below the steps.
Iíve been flying through Amberley over 30 years now and had no issues. For the ATC it must be interesting, they get to deal with all-sorts from Drifters doing 50 knots to fast jets.




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Old 1st Sep 2022, 00:23
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Originally Posted by Duck Pilot View Post
Without speculating on exactly what caused this accident, simple fact is that donít go IMC in anything below the LSAT unless doing an IAP otherwise it will KILL YOU!

I deal with the shit every day when flying in PNG, done it yesterday and Iím sure Iím going to do it today again and tomorrow, and thatís in big aeroplanes in the bush in shit weather amongst big mountains.

Experience, having had a few mates die in CFIT accidents together with having been to accident sites during investigations and witnessing the absolute carnage and devastation is enough to convince me not to put an aeroplane somewhere where it shouldnít be.

If youíre IMC below LSALT and not visual if opening VFR or visually, you have absolutely no right being there - forget the rules this shit will KILL YOU and anyone on the aircraft with you, and also maybe anyone you might hit on the ground during the impact.
Well said 👏
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 02:30
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Originally Posted by Flying Binghi View Post

I still put forward the possibility of a full an avionics screen failure due water shorting the electrics. The pilot having a screen failure then had the option of straight ahead climb or turning back onto a known valley whilst climbing.

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How will water in the EFIS cause a VFR aircraft operating in VMC to allegedly lose control?


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Old 1st Sep 2022, 02:33
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Originally Posted by By George View Post
Something odd about this accident. Experienced professional pilot close to retirement (two months away). That aeroplane has gone down like a lawn dart in the classical stall/spin, spiral dive loss of control way. Little damage to surrounding trees and all the big bits seem to be there.
You sound like one of the peanuts on Facebook saying how the government crashed this aircraft due to issue in the agriculture sector and how they killed 5 other representatives from the agriculture industry in the recent EC130 crash out of Melbourne. Do you realise how stupid that sounds?
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 03:24
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post
How will water in the EFIS cause a VFR aircraft operating in VMC to allegedly lose control?
Re EFIS: My scenario covers only if one is fitted. If the pilot were using one to Ďthread the needleí near minimas around controlled airspace, and it failedÖ..


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