Channel 7 Sunday Night Program About VH-MDX
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Sheep,
Yes, the possibility that he transposed the digits when tuning the ADF is certainly within the realms of possibility.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter *why* he took the route he did, and really, it doesn't even matter what the route he took was. As far as actually finding the aircraft is concerned, the most relevant part is the flight of the aircraft after it was identified by Williamtown radar at 320M/45nm at about 1936. We know it was there, and pretty much anything before that isn't very relevant in finding it.
From that time, until it lost contact, was about 3 and a half minutes.
Yes, the possibility that he transposed the digits when tuning the ADF is certainly within the realms of possibility.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter *why* he took the route he did, and really, it doesn't even matter what the route he took was. As far as actually finding the aircraft is concerned, the most relevant part is the flight of the aircraft after it was identified by Williamtown radar at 320M/45nm at about 1936. We know it was there, and pretty much anything before that isn't very relevant in finding it.
From that time, until it lost contact, was about 3 and a half minutes.
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Acknowledge the facts
Dick,
I've a lot of personal involvement in this incident, as other posters may know and you will probably remember us discussing airspace issues in the past - in public forums where professionals were present.
I'm sure you have the language skills, intelligence and aviation experience to read and understand the transcripts of the communications as are on the public record and presented in several posts in this discussion. Please take a look at them again and note the time stamps.
Now, in an effort to help you regain some credibility in the aviation community, I offer you a quote to cut and paste into a post on this discussion:
"I have read the transcript of communication between the RAAF Williamtown controller and Sydney Flight Service and acknowledge that Williamtown offered a clearance through the active RAAF airspace as soon as requested by Flight Service."
MJG
PS - we are both Queen's Scouts -remember the Scout Law.
I've a lot of personal involvement in this incident, as other posters may know and you will probably remember us discussing airspace issues in the past - in public forums where professionals were present.
I'm sure you have the language skills, intelligence and aviation experience to read and understand the transcripts of the communications as are on the public record and presented in several posts in this discussion. Please take a look at them again and note the time stamps.
Now, in an effort to help you regain some credibility in the aviation community, I offer you a quote to cut and paste into a post on this discussion:
"I have read the transcript of communication between the RAAF Williamtown controller and Sydney Flight Service and acknowledge that Williamtown offered a clearance through the active RAAF airspace as soon as requested by Flight Service."
MJG
PS - we are both Queen's Scouts -remember the Scout Law.
Props are for boats!
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Ok from that last Radar plots and 3 and a half minutes on heading anywhere between 220 to 150 I suppose with that strong 60-70kt wind. Gosh its tough one then. How broad an area does that cover?
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I am reminded of General Melchett in Blackadder...
Dick,
This is very much reminding of a very funny line in Blackadder - "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
What is not funny is you taking the focus of what a lot of dedicated and hard working people are trying to achieve, with very limited resources, and usually, contributing their own resources.
This was a chance to put THE SEARCH into public awareness, so that maybe, we might be given a higher funding priority, to enable us to FIND THE AIRPLANE.
I am far from a millionaire but I have sunk countless hours of my time, and countless $$$ into SEARCHING, as have many other people.
You have hijacked this issue, both here, in the media and they eyes of the public, to push your own, very tenuously linked, agenda, and removed the best chance in about 30 years of us raising the profile of it to where we could maybe bring about a successful conclusion to this story. You have made it, not about the fact that the plane still hasn't been found, but about you and your misguided war on the RAAF.
So thank you very much, I really hope you're f$@king happy with the result you achieved. For yourself.
This is very much reminding of a very funny line in Blackadder - "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
What is not funny is you taking the focus of what a lot of dedicated and hard working people are trying to achieve, with very limited resources, and usually, contributing their own resources.
This was a chance to put THE SEARCH into public awareness, so that maybe, we might be given a higher funding priority, to enable us to FIND THE AIRPLANE.
I am far from a millionaire but I have sunk countless hours of my time, and countless $$$ into SEARCHING, as have many other people.
You have hijacked this issue, both here, in the media and they eyes of the public, to push your own, very tenuously linked, agenda, and removed the best chance in about 30 years of us raising the profile of it to where we could maybe bring about a successful conclusion to this story. You have made it, not about the fact that the plane still hasn't been found, but about you and your misguided war on the RAAF.
So thank you very much, I really hope you're f$@king happy with the result you achieved. For yourself.
Last edited by RatsoreA; 4th Jun 2014 at 15:53. Reason: Spelling
Creamie,
Whilst I agree with you as far as matter of Australia control of aircraft of Australian nationality is concerned, re operations or airworthiness generally, I do not agree that Australia has the power to impose airspace limitations on Australian aircraft in international airspace, that don't apply equally to other aircraft in the same international airspace or other national airspace.
It ultimately becomes a constitutional issue, in my view.
We could have an interesting discussion on this, but this is not the place for that discussion.
Tootle pip!!
Whilst I agree with you as far as matter of Australia control of aircraft of Australian nationality is concerned, re operations or airworthiness generally, I do not agree that Australia has the power to impose airspace limitations on Australian aircraft in international airspace, that don't apply equally to other aircraft in the same international airspace or other national airspace.
It ultimately becomes a constitutional issue, in my view.
We could have an interesting discussion on this, but this is not the place for that discussion.
Tootle pip!!
yr right:
Are you serious? What planet are you on? Dick's agenda should be readily obvious.
And at least Jaba can spell....
You had your own agenda to push. Dick hasn't. He doing it for the good of the aviation community
And at least Jaba can spell....
Last edited by Dora-9; 4th Jun 2014 at 20:04. Reason: Extra sentence.
I do not agree that Australia has the power to impose airspace limitations on Australian aircraft in international airspace ...
If the Commmonwealth can, as it does now, validly prohibit Australian aircraft from operating commercially inside or outside Australian territory, without an AOC issued by CASA, the Commonwealth can declare a Romeo or other airspace outside Australian territory and it, too, will be binding on Australian aircraft.
You can test it though. Find some of this extra-territorial airspace in an Australian aircraft, bust it, and do a Darryl Kerrigan...
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Dick Smith - good grief
Hi Dick,
What personal agenda are you running here with your crocodile tears on TV?
I was a RAAF air traffic controller at ASWM in the 80's. I was the only ATC who was both military and civilian trained. I have cleared thousands of civilian flights through Willytown airspace whenever asked, especially if the weather was dodgy outside ASWM controlled airspace.
I have cleared YOU in your Jetranger, with your wife and kids on board to transit and land somewhere private north of Williamtown. On a return flight one day I cleared you to fly right over the Base, cautioning you not to take any photographs and then to hover in front of the control tower whilst you took pictures, your kids waved and I shone the Aldis Lamp at them.
How dare you baselessly and shamelessly blame military air traffic controllers for this sad incident.
I have, on at least 2 occasions, broken all the rules and RESCUED civilian pilots in distress by radar vectoring them and actually landing them at the RAAF Base. I have a letter from one of those pilots thanking me profusely for saving his life.
Read the transcript and apologise before a tsunami of very angry and upset military air traffic controllers get on television...
What personal agenda are you running here with your crocodile tears on TV?
I was a RAAF air traffic controller at ASWM in the 80's. I was the only ATC who was both military and civilian trained. I have cleared thousands of civilian flights through Willytown airspace whenever asked, especially if the weather was dodgy outside ASWM controlled airspace.
I have cleared YOU in your Jetranger, with your wife and kids on board to transit and land somewhere private north of Williamtown. On a return flight one day I cleared you to fly right over the Base, cautioning you not to take any photographs and then to hover in front of the control tower whilst you took pictures, your kids waved and I shone the Aldis Lamp at them.
How dare you baselessly and shamelessly blame military air traffic controllers for this sad incident.
I have, on at least 2 occasions, broken all the rules and RESCUED civilian pilots in distress by radar vectoring them and actually landing them at the RAAF Base. I have a letter from one of those pilots thanking me profusely for saving his life.
Read the transcript and apologise before a tsunami of very angry and upset military air traffic controllers get on television...
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Ignorance is Bliss
Dick, and others who are posting on here without first hand knowledge.
"Fly up and down the Coastal Lightie Lane without a clearance"...
Mmmmm - it IS controlled airspace which means air traffic controllers actually "control" the airspace. We are (were in my case) responsible to separate aircraft in that airspace.
I've had many (read lots) of inexperienced civil pilots fly up the light aircraft lane who did understand the basic clearance and thought it was ok to shortcut close to the bombing and gunnery range (one actually flew right through the bombing range!).
Having a newly qualified VFR bug smasher pilot barely able to control the aircraft being passed in front at 400+ knots by a gaggle of fighters at close quarters is not good! We tried to avoid that situation.
Passengers in large jets do not like to see fighters outside their windows whilst sipping on a latte - it upsets them and causes all sorts of complaints - we try to avoid that.
If real, live bullets, bombs and missiles are flying through the ether, we try really hard to avoid mixing civilians in there too.
When your Cessna Citation or any other aircraft is HELD or diverted it is for good reason, not because we are (or were) BORED!
The things that go on in military airspace are not for everyone's ears or eyes, including yours Dick.
As a military and civilian ATC who also flew, I constantly invited pilots to the control tower and radar centre to observe, sit with us and plug in to see the other side of the coin. Very few took up the opportunity and yet many ATCs are pilots themselves.
Are we all sad, very sad when a life is lost? YES we are - ALL of us!
You have lost the support of a large chunk of the aviation community Dick.
Time to stop.
"Fly up and down the Coastal Lightie Lane without a clearance"...
Mmmmm - it IS controlled airspace which means air traffic controllers actually "control" the airspace. We are (were in my case) responsible to separate aircraft in that airspace.
I've had many (read lots) of inexperienced civil pilots fly up the light aircraft lane who did understand the basic clearance and thought it was ok to shortcut close to the bombing and gunnery range (one actually flew right through the bombing range!).
Having a newly qualified VFR bug smasher pilot barely able to control the aircraft being passed in front at 400+ knots by a gaggle of fighters at close quarters is not good! We tried to avoid that situation.
Passengers in large jets do not like to see fighters outside their windows whilst sipping on a latte - it upsets them and causes all sorts of complaints - we try to avoid that.
If real, live bullets, bombs and missiles are flying through the ether, we try really hard to avoid mixing civilians in there too.
When your Cessna Citation or any other aircraft is HELD or diverted it is for good reason, not because we are (or were) BORED!
The things that go on in military airspace are not for everyone's ears or eyes, including yours Dick.
As a military and civilian ATC who also flew, I constantly invited pilots to the control tower and radar centre to observe, sit with us and plug in to see the other side of the coin. Very few took up the opportunity and yet many ATCs are pilots themselves.
Are we all sad, very sad when a life is lost? YES we are - ALL of us!
You have lost the support of a large chunk of the aviation community Dick.
Time to stop.
Hi Dick,
What personal agenda are you running here with your crocodile tears on TV?
I was a RAAF air traffic controller at ASWM in the 80's. I was the only ATC who was both military and civilian trained. I have cleared thousands of civilian flights through Willytown airspace whenever asked, especially if the weather was dodgy outside ASWM controlled airspace.
I have cleared YOU in your Jetranger, with your wife and kids on board to transit and land somewhere private north of Williamtown. On a return flight one day I cleared you to fly right over the Base, cautioning you not to take any photographs and then to hover in front of the control tower whilst you took pictures, your kids waved and I shone the Aldis Lamp at them.
How dare you baselessly and shamelessly blame military air traffic controllers for this sad incident.
I have, on at least 2 occasions, broken all the rules and RESCUED civilian pilots in distress by radar vectoring them and actually landing them at the RAAF Base. I have a letter from one of those pilots thanking me profusely for saving his life.
Read the transcript and apologise before a tsunami of very angry and upset military air traffic controllers get on television...
What personal agenda are you running here with your crocodile tears on TV?
I was a RAAF air traffic controller at ASWM in the 80's. I was the only ATC who was both military and civilian trained. I have cleared thousands of civilian flights through Willytown airspace whenever asked, especially if the weather was dodgy outside ASWM controlled airspace.
I have cleared YOU in your Jetranger, with your wife and kids on board to transit and land somewhere private north of Williamtown. On a return flight one day I cleared you to fly right over the Base, cautioning you not to take any photographs and then to hover in front of the control tower whilst you took pictures, your kids waved and I shone the Aldis Lamp at them.
How dare you baselessly and shamelessly blame military air traffic controllers for this sad incident.
I have, on at least 2 occasions, broken all the rules and RESCUED civilian pilots in distress by radar vectoring them and actually landing them at the RAAF Base. I have a letter from one of those pilots thanking me profusely for saving his life.
Read the transcript and apologise before a tsunami of very angry and upset military air traffic controllers get on television...
Thread Starter
Sunny. Why would MDX require a clearance south of Willy?
Surely just had to descend a bit to remain OCTA to Bankstown.
Once again I am not blaming military ATCs. In fact I feel sorry for them as their leadership is so incompetent..
The pilot of MDX never requested a clearance through Willy because he had been informed at Cooly he could not flight plan over Willy. It probably seemed logical to him that a flight planning prohibition meant you were not supposed to fly on that route. Logical
Isn't it fascinating how the BASI investigators supported the existing system and did not make one recommendation in relation to better use of radar and more enlightened flight planning requirements.
On Channel 7 I stated that I believed the controllers at Willy were as good as any in the world. Just needed modern procedures and airspace so they could prevent a similar accident from happening again
I love reading these posts. Shows me why it's so difficult in Aus to modernise the system!
Surely just had to descend a bit to remain OCTA to Bankstown.
Once again I am not blaming military ATCs. In fact I feel sorry for them as their leadership is so incompetent..
The pilot of MDX never requested a clearance through Willy because he had been informed at Cooly he could not flight plan over Willy. It probably seemed logical to him that a flight planning prohibition meant you were not supposed to fly on that route. Logical
Isn't it fascinating how the BASI investigators supported the existing system and did not make one recommendation in relation to better use of radar and more enlightened flight planning requirements.
On Channel 7 I stated that I believed the controllers at Willy were as good as any in the world. Just needed modern procedures and airspace so they could prevent a similar accident from happening again
I love reading these posts. Shows me why it's so difficult in Aus to modernise the system!
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Dick - know the difference!
Dick. there is
1. Flight Planning and
2. Clearance.
You can Flight Plan all you like but if the weather, traffic, airspace or any one of dozens of variables are changed, so will your clearance.
So what if the system were changed to be able to file a PLAN over or through Willy? When you get close to mil airspace, civil ATC STILL have to ask for clearance and it would be granted or denied depending on the circumstances at the time.
You are asking for an amendment to a system that WORKS already.
Most of us who KNOW what goes on are shaking our collective heads!
Pick another cause will you!
1. Flight Planning and
2. Clearance.
You can Flight Plan all you like but if the weather, traffic, airspace or any one of dozens of variables are changed, so will your clearance.
So what if the system were changed to be able to file a PLAN over or through Willy? When you get close to mil airspace, civil ATC STILL have to ask for clearance and it would be granted or denied depending on the circumstances at the time.
You are asking for an amendment to a system that WORKS already.
Most of us who KNOW what goes on are shaking our collective heads!
Pick another cause will you!
Thread Starter
Trevor. You asked on the MDX thread why the pilot did not request an airways clearance earlier?
It's pretty obvious that after being told he could not flight plan over Willy he believed it was not possible to fly that way.
Many pilots today see the published route limitation , then plan to the west of Willy and don't understand that a direct clearance can often be obtained
Of course. There will always be a delay because the poor ATC at Willy has no details on the flight and has to key them in.
But don't worry. I will get this limitation removed. - but will take a little while when you consider the mental attitude of the Military posters on this site and their anger that someone could be doubting the system!
It's pretty obvious that after being told he could not flight plan over Willy he believed it was not possible to fly that way.
Many pilots today see the published route limitation , then plan to the west of Willy and don't understand that a direct clearance can often be obtained
Of course. There will always be a delay because the poor ATC at Willy has no details on the flight and has to key them in.
But don't worry. I will get this limitation removed. - but will take a little while when you consider the mental attitude of the Military posters on this site and their anger that someone could be doubting the system!
Thread Starter
Air traffic one
The system clearly does not work that well. That's why Geoff Brown says it's better to pre flight plan so the ATC has the info to avoid the type of delay that increased the chance of an accident happening that resulted in 5 deaths.
I love the way you will do everything you can to avoid any change.
Remove the limitation and safety will be improved It's obvious
The system clearly does not work that well. That's why Geoff Brown says it's better to pre flight plan so the ATC has the info to avoid the type of delay that increased the chance of an accident happening that resulted in 5 deaths.
I love the way you will do everything you can to avoid any change.
Remove the limitation and safety will be improved It's obvious
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Dick,
You still haven't answered lots of questions in many of my previous posts.
Please review and post answers.
Add this to the list -
Nobody is avoiding change. Everybody is saying that your assertion that the RAAF caused a delay to the aircraft and is the ultimate cause of the accident is wrong and baseless.
Are you saying that you are incapable of making one orbit whilst one guy puts about 20 keystrokes into a computer so that you can safely traverse a potenially dangerous area?
You still haven't answered lots of questions in many of my previous posts.
Please review and post answers.
Add this to the list -
The system clearly does not work that well. That's why Geoff Brown says it's better to pre flight plan so the ATC has the info to avoid the type of delay that attributed to the 5 deaths.
I love the way you will do everything you can to avoid any change.
I love the way you will do everything you can to avoid any change.
Are you saying that you are incapable of making one orbit whilst one guy puts about 20 keystrokes into a computer so that you can safely traverse a potenially dangerous area?
Hi ATO
What bad consequences would flow if, hypothetically, the airspace that is currently R578A, and at and above 5,000’ in R596, were instead Class E or G airspace after the boys and girls in blue have returned to the flight line? (And I realise why R596 is where it is.)
What bad consequences would flow if, hypothetically, the airspace that is currently R578A, and at and above 5,000’ in R596, were instead Class E or G airspace after the boys and girls in blue have returned to the flight line? (And I realise why R596 is where it is.)
Thread Starter
Rats. Too complicated for me to find them. Either phone me again or post a simple list of the questions you reckon I havn't answered and I will do so!
Thread Starter
Rats. The RAAF was clearly the prime cause of the delay by not allowing the pilot to file a plan for the shortest and safest route
Even the Air Marshal in his press release says delays can be reduced by filing a flight plan on the route - he clearly had not been informed this is prohibited .
This route limitation was solely introduced by the RAAF.
Do the flight today and you must file on the western route..that means that the Willy ATC will have no details on your flight and there will be a delay if you call for a different clearance to the flight planned route.
Are you willing to risk a repeat of this accident rather than support a removal of the RAAF restriction?
Even the Air Marshal in his press release says delays can be reduced by filing a flight plan on the route - he clearly had not been informed this is prohibited .
This route limitation was solely introduced by the RAAF.
Do the flight today and you must file on the western route..that means that the Willy ATC will have no details on your flight and there will be a delay if you call for a different clearance to the flight planned route.
Are you willing to risk a repeat of this accident rather than support a removal of the RAAF restriction?