Channel 7 Sunday Night Program About VH-MDX
God you guys are unbelievable here, I only hope that the relatives of the deceased are not reading this as it's cring-worthy & very disappointing the way some are behaving in here
The relies must be reliving this whole sorry saga all over again thru the TV & thru these sad pages
I'd like to think that at least they know their husbands/fathers/sons/friends didn't go to their deaths in vane only to have this bickering go on so may years after!!
NOBODY sent these guys to their deaths it was a chain of events we all know that a chain that could have had a link broken at numerous times but didn't for reasons apart from the obvious that we shall never know, let it go, the personal attacks achieve nothing, let these guys RIP.
Wmk2
The relies must be reliving this whole sorry saga all over again thru the TV & thru these sad pagesI'd like to think that at least they know their husbands/fathers/sons/friends didn't go to their deaths in vane only to have this bickering go on so may years after!!
NOBODY sent these guys to their deaths it was a chain of events we all know that a chain that could have had a link broken at numerous times but didn't for reasons apart from the obvious that we shall never know, let it go, the personal attacks achieve nothing, let these guys RIP.
Wmk2
Thread Starter
Creampuff the airspace is a nightmare!
Often when they activate the control area to 12 nm for airline traffic they also activate r578 b so their airspace goes to 25 nm at ground level. Compare this with the standard FAA dimension of 5 nm at ground level for class C airspace!
No wonder they can't cope properly with VFR transit traffic.
They totally refuse to take up my offer of covering the cost of letting their controllers travel to the USA to see how airspace can be run safely with less delays. Minds are close- concrete is set.
Often when they activate the control area to 12 nm for airline traffic they also activate r578 b so their airspace goes to 25 nm at ground level. Compare this with the standard FAA dimension of 5 nm at ground level for class C airspace!
No wonder they can't cope properly with VFR transit traffic.
They totally refuse to take up my offer of covering the cost of letting their controllers travel to the USA to see how airspace can be run safely with less delays. Minds are close- concrete is set.
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Everyone is sad
Please do not confuse a professional discussion/argument/mud slinging exercise with "Having no respect for the deceased"..
Their untimely deaths are the very reason this discussion exists.
Sadly Dick Smith, a man I greatly admire for his feats and life, seems to have lost the plot with his assertions and arguments making little sense.
Dick Smith is not, nor was he ever an air traffic controller or airspace manager.
There is much mourning and respect for all aviators who lose their lives doing, in most cases, what tbey loved.
Their untimely deaths are the very reason this discussion exists.
Sadly Dick Smith, a man I greatly admire for his feats and life, seems to have lost the plot with his assertions and arguments making little sense.
Dick Smith is not, nor was he ever an air traffic controller or airspace manager.
There is much mourning and respect for all aviators who lose their lives doing, in most cases, what tbey loved.
Yes yr right the very discussions are because of their deaths but you guys are going into depths here to prove your points that would be well beyond the novice to understand & by that I mean any relatives that may come across the school yard squabble here would only see the negatives & not any facts as it's too complicated going back & forth trying to sift out any truths, as I say for the novice that applies. Obviously this forum a public forum is open to anyone & is generally specifically for such discussions but when it involves many people outside of the scope of their ability to understand all this then that's when the mud slinging ought to be kept out of it rather than making it personal.
Dick has obviously opened up a huge can of worms here judging by the rapid fire responses thus far & agan NOBODY knows all the reasons as to why we find ourselves here once again banging some heads against the wall!
Sure discuss all you like guys we are ALL entitled to an opinion/belief right or wrong but is this the place to behave like pollies?
In fact am somewhat surprised that the Mod/s haven't intervened, this is most unusual as they slam shut many threads for a lot less!.
Wmk2
Dick has obviously opened up a huge can of worms here judging by the rapid fire responses thus far & agan NOBODY knows all the reasons as to why we find ourselves here once again banging some heads against the wall!
Sure discuss all you like guys we are ALL entitled to an opinion/belief right or wrong but is this the place to behave like pollies?
In fact am somewhat surprised that the Mod/s haven't intervened, this is most unusual as they slam shut many threads for a lot less!.
Wmk2
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Hi Wally,
I hear all you are saying, but the 'rapid fire responses' wouldn't have eventuated if personal integrity and professionalism hadn't been impugned.
No one wants to dredge up the past in this manner and cause unnecessary grief - none of the originators of these 'rapid fire responses' would have started a thread like this in the first place. However, when one's integrity is questioned on unsubstantiated allegations, then the maligned cannot be expected to sit on their hands and just take it.
To quote the best fast bowler this country has produced to his captain after being bounced by Tony Greig - 'Just remember who started this!'
I hear all you are saying, but the 'rapid fire responses' wouldn't have eventuated if personal integrity and professionalism hadn't been impugned.
No one wants to dredge up the past in this manner and cause unnecessary grief - none of the originators of these 'rapid fire responses' would have started a thread like this in the first place. However, when one's integrity is questioned on unsubstantiated allegations, then the maligned cannot be expected to sit on their hands and just take it.
To quote the best fast bowler this country has produced to his captain after being bounced by Tony Greig - 'Just remember who started this!'
any regular lightie charter drivers that work through this airspace have any pointers on how to best get a clearance through this airspace when you need to go?
If you have don't have a plan in the system - expect it to take a bit longer to get your clearance cause someones gonna have to put your details in the system.
OK, so I have no experience with Willy'stown, but I got lots of experience over the last 40 years with Townsville, Amberley Oakey, Tindal and Darwin. In my experience, the ATC personnel, both military and civil are very helpful, courteous and on-the-ball 99% of the time, and as for the other 1% (?), well we all have our bad days don't we!
Dr
"It's pretty obvious that after being told he could not flight plan over Willy he believed it was not possible to fly that way.
Many pilots today see the published route limitation , then plan to the west of Willy and don't understand that a direct clearance can often be obtained"
Was told he could not fly over Willy???? Yet he arrived at the boundary. Just doesn't make sense. He DID arrive at the boundary unannounced without a clearance hence the delay. If he was told not to plan through Willy then why did he arrive at the boundary, when, as YOU say, he believed it was not possible to fly that way. Clearly he thought he could.
Wally - to some its an interesting discussion. If it peeves you go read something else
Many pilots today see the published route limitation , then plan to the west of Willy and don't understand that a direct clearance can often be obtained"
Was told he could not fly over Willy???? Yet he arrived at the boundary. Just doesn't make sense. He DID arrive at the boundary unannounced without a clearance hence the delay. If he was told not to plan through Willy then why did he arrive at the boundary, when, as YOU say, he believed it was not possible to fly that way. Clearly he thought he could.
Wally - to some its an interesting discussion. If it peeves you go read something else
Was told he could not fly over Willy???? Yet he arrived at the boundary. Just doesn't make sense. He DID arrive at the boundary unannounced without a clearance hence the delay. If he was told not to plan through Willy then why did he arrive at the boundary, when, as YOU say, he believed it was not possible to fly that way. Clearly he thought he could.
Also as any experienced instructor will tell you, some folk are plain intimidated by controlled airspace and lack the confidence to insist on a clearance or hold pending. Whether or not the pilot of MDX was in this camp, I have no idea.
Wally - to some its an interesting discussion. If it peeves you go read something else
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The things that go on in military airspace are not for everyone's ears or eyes, including yours Dick.
Dick is blaming the RAAF as far as I can tell, not the controllers. It's a fair call. But as a RAAF ATC you were only doing what your superiors told you to so you shouldn't feel resonsible.
I have as much right to be here as the rest of you guys & I rarely if ever attack anybody's personally (unlike some) it's just that I don't wish to add to the heartache that this thread 'could' be giving innocent victims. Some of you guys are very professional & knowledgeable in this particular matter so why not keep it at that level despite what someone might have said & not be dragged down like arrant school kids,have a little more respect & if this is such a personal thing with Dick then why not PM him & keep the attacks off the public side of it all.
Wmk2
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Just don't get it.
Forgive me Mr Smith, it is you who does not get it. I have previously acknowledged that you said the PIC of MDX should not have continued on his planned route when advised holding north of Willy would be required whilst a clearance was being negotiated. I also acknowledged your right to push for change in the restrictions on military airspace. What I have done, and continue to do, is to express my objection to your blaming the loss of lives in the MDX accident on the RAAF. I may be old and retired, but I can still spot an unfair assertion when I see one and I can still spot an attempt to sensationalise an
emotive issue to further one's cause.
I do get it Sir, just as do many others. You are using your considerable influence to push your own cause by falsely claiming the "RAAF sent five people to their death". You should apologise and admit you are wrong in where you lay blame.
emotive issue to further one's cause.
I do get it Sir, just as do many others. You are using your considerable influence to push your own cause by falsely claiming the "RAAF sent five people to their death". You should apologise and admit you are wrong in where you lay blame.
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Hear Hear
Tragedy aside.
The responsibility for this accident lies squarely with the PIC.
By all accounts here is the series of events from my review of accident report store in the National Archives:
1. He suggested to someone he had problems with either electrics or vacuum pump at Cooly. It sounds like he wasn't sure if his gyroscopic instruments were electric or vacuum driven.
2. He was flying NVMC. Was this due to #1?
3. He planned a flight into known icing conditions in an aircraft not certified for icing conditions.
4. A preceding aircraft (by a matter of 9 mins) flying IFR was given clearance through Williamtown. And aircraft from other origins were obtaining clearances into the airspace.
5. Why did he not plan via Williamtown originally?
6. When he asked for clearance he was not in the muck.
7. They advised that clearance may be available up to 6000 via a coastal route but he would have to hold for a little while OCTA while they sorted the clearance. In my experience this is not uncommon when you approach a clearance zone with either no submitted plan or a change to submitted plan.
8. He made the decision to not hold for a clearance.
9. Although over 3000 hours he had a history of not handling poor weather (IFR) comfortably.
With all due respect Mr Smith please review all the evidence before you start casting dispersions.
The responsibility for this accident lies squarely with the PIC.
By all accounts here is the series of events from my review of accident report store in the National Archives:
1. He suggested to someone he had problems with either electrics or vacuum pump at Cooly. It sounds like he wasn't sure if his gyroscopic instruments were electric or vacuum driven.
2. He was flying NVMC. Was this due to #1?
3. He planned a flight into known icing conditions in an aircraft not certified for icing conditions.
4. A preceding aircraft (by a matter of 9 mins) flying IFR was given clearance through Williamtown. And aircraft from other origins were obtaining clearances into the airspace.
5. Why did he not plan via Williamtown originally?
6. When he asked for clearance he was not in the muck.
7. They advised that clearance may be available up to 6000 via a coastal route but he would have to hold for a little while OCTA while they sorted the clearance. In my experience this is not uncommon when you approach a clearance zone with either no submitted plan or a change to submitted plan.
8. He made the decision to not hold for a clearance.
9. Although over 3000 hours he had a history of not handling poor weather (IFR) comfortably.
With all due respect Mr Smith please review all the evidence before you start casting dispersions.
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Too much to read but as I recall someone said earlier that MDX was offered a clearance at "7 or 9"
I don't believe that this was ever offered as Sydney said to the WLM controller "we are not VMC so onward clearance won't be available." That sounds awfully like "tell him to crash elsewhere" with absolutely no regard for the perilous position of MDX. As I see it "the system" failed MDX regardless of the pilot's admitted shortcomings.
I have seen a C206 sent back from Mona Vale to Aeropelican SE NVMC because Sydney was not VMC even though the pilot could see YSSY from Mona Vale. Once again a very much "go crash elsewhere" attitude.
Wouldn't it have been great if someone had said "MDX you have clearance to proceed to and land at YWLM?"
BTW was "Operational Control" still the go at this time?
I don't believe that this was ever offered as Sydney said to the WLM controller "we are not VMC so onward clearance won't be available." That sounds awfully like "tell him to crash elsewhere" with absolutely no regard for the perilous position of MDX. As I see it "the system" failed MDX regardless of the pilot's admitted shortcomings.
I have seen a C206 sent back from Mona Vale to Aeropelican SE NVMC because Sydney was not VMC even though the pilot could see YSSY from Mona Vale. Once again a very much "go crash elsewhere" attitude.
Wouldn't it have been great if someone had said "MDX you have clearance to proceed to and land at YWLM?"
BTW was "Operational Control" still the go at this time?
Last edited by Bill Pike; 5th Jun 2014 at 05:51. Reason: Clarity
BTW was "Operational Control" still the go at this time?
Dr
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absolutely no regard for the perilous position of MDX.
Wouldn't it have been great if someone had said "MDX you have clearance to proceed to and land at YWLM?"
How that comes across as
That sounds awfully like "tell him to crash elsewhere"
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Wally,
The problem is that integrity and professionalism have been publicly, and unfairly, impugned by a baseless accusation.
What you are suggesting is that Dick can make an unsubstantiated, sensationalist allegation in the public domain, but that those slandered on national TV, seen by thousands, should take it up with him privately and just suck it up.
That means that in the public domain, the (baseless) accusations go unchallenged. It's akin to the accused admitting guilt for a crime that they did not commit. With no rebuttal, the great unwashed will accept what is offered by Channel 7 as 'truth.'
In your world, one side of the house is granted free-rein to accuse, while the other side is muzzled, and tarred, with no recourse to a just hearing.
I doubt that those on here that have been unjustifiably slighted will just bend over and agree with such warped logic.
The problem is that integrity and professionalism have been publicly, and unfairly, impugned by a baseless accusation.
What you are suggesting is that Dick can make an unsubstantiated, sensationalist allegation in the public domain, but that those slandered on national TV, seen by thousands, should take it up with him privately and just suck it up.
That means that in the public domain, the (baseless) accusations go unchallenged. It's akin to the accused admitting guilt for a crime that they did not commit. With no rebuttal, the great unwashed will accept what is offered by Channel 7 as 'truth.'
In your world, one side of the house is granted free-rein to accuse, while the other side is muzzled, and tarred, with no recourse to a just hearing.
I doubt that those on here that have been unjustifiably slighted will just bend over and agree with such warped logic.
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RatsoreA,
You have i believe said several times that a clearance was forthcoming for MDX, ("in a few minutes" I believe you said) and I think in one case you said that he refused it because of the level offered.
My information (however faulty) is that Sydney had canned such a clearance onward after Willy as their area was not VMC, and that no clearance was ever offered at anytime, nor was one likely to be?.
Here we have a NVMC aircraft in known bad weather out over tiger country. The controller knew that the Sydney CTA was non VMC and therefore YSBK probably wasn't so hot either. I am not saying that it was the controller's responsibility to offer a helping hand but he had lots of information that the pilot was in a bind. If you can't understand that, that's fine, but it is clear to me.
Love him or hate him, Dick Smith is in my opinion one of GA's best friends.
You have i believe said several times that a clearance was forthcoming for MDX, ("in a few minutes" I believe you said) and I think in one case you said that he refused it because of the level offered.
My information (however faulty) is that Sydney had canned such a clearance onward after Willy as their area was not VMC, and that no clearance was ever offered at anytime, nor was one likely to be?.
Here we have a NVMC aircraft in known bad weather out over tiger country. The controller knew that the Sydney CTA was non VMC and therefore YSBK probably wasn't so hot either. I am not saying that it was the controller's responsibility to offer a helping hand but he had lots of information that the pilot was in a bind. If you can't understand that, that's fine, but it is clear to me.
Love him or hate him, Dick Smith is in my opinion one of GA's best friends.
Creamie,
We will have to agree to differ, when it come to airspace designation, and the heart of the argument goes to the limits of Cth powers under the Constitution S.51(xxix) external affairs.
I am of the view that the Cth does NOT possess the power to designate airspace applicable to Australian aircraft in international airspace ( and certainly not in the sovereign airspace of another state) as Australia is not a signatory to any treaty or convention that allows such an action.
The powers of Australia over Australian aircraft is not without limit.
Tootle pip!!
We will have to agree to differ, when it come to airspace designation, and the heart of the argument goes to the limits of Cth powers under the Constitution S.51(xxix) external affairs.
I am of the view that the Cth does NOT possess the power to designate airspace applicable to Australian aircraft in international airspace ( and certainly not in the sovereign airspace of another state) as Australia is not a signatory to any treaty or convention that allows such an action.
The powers of Australia over Australian aircraft is not without limit.
Tootle pip!!