Channel 7 Sunday Night Program About VH-MDX
Then put your VH-aircraft where your mouth is, Leaddie: Wait for e.g. R574 or R453 to become active and tootle around in it 13nms or more off the baseline transmitting: “Suffer in ya jocks!” to the controlling authority. 
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Then:
"In the above exchange, Sydney FIS 5 asks Sydney Air Traffic Control Sector 1 (S1) for an onwards clearance for MDX to enter the Sydney controlled airspace after the Williamtown transit is complete. S1 responds that the clearance will not be available because Sydney control area is not Night VMC (Night Visual Meteorological Conditions - in other words a pilot must fly visually and clear of cloud). So the clearance issued by Williamtown Tower to Sydney Flight Service was never transmitted to the aircraft due to Sydney Sector 1 involvement. As a result, three minutes later at 0856, MDX, with no clearance issued by FIS 5 through Williamtown airspace, tracked from Taree to Craven then Singleton and into bad weather where some 45 minutes later the aircraft crashed in the Barrington Tops."
(Quote from Harry Howard's (former MATC) letter to Channel 7)
"In the above exchange, Sydney FIS 5 asks Sydney Air Traffic Control Sector 1 (S1) for an onwards clearance for MDX to enter the Sydney controlled airspace after the Williamtown transit is complete. S1 responds that the clearance will not be available because Sydney control area is not Night VMC (Night Visual Meteorological Conditions - in other words a pilot must fly visually and clear of cloud). So the clearance issued by Williamtown Tower to Sydney Flight Service was never transmitted to the aircraft due to Sydney Sector 1 involvement. As a result, three minutes later at 0856, MDX, with no clearance issued by FIS 5 through Williamtown airspace, tracked from Taree to Craven then Singleton and into bad weather where some 45 minutes later the aircraft crashed in the Barrington Tops."
(Quote from Harry Howard's (former MATC) letter to Channel 7)
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No one says that the pilot of MDX did well that night. He was trying to make a living for his family in GA and was in well over his head, poor bugger. NVMC "ratings" are a topic for another thread, but designed to allow outback pilots to "get home after dark", they are in my opinion terribly misused. I am sure you "aces of the bases" types out there could do inky black NVMC 360's all night but as the Kennedys found out NVMC without an horizon is very difficult for some.
Let's discuss how ATC could (and should) have done better please, that is the topic.
MDX wasn't over the Barringtons because the pilot wanted to be.
Let's discuss how ATC could (and should) have done better please, that is the topic.
MDX wasn't over the Barringtons because the pilot wanted to be.
Thread Starter
Harry Howard
Over the years I have constantly worked towards modernizing Australian procedures so safety can be improved.
I have had quite a bit of success with AsA /CASA regs but very little when it comes to the military .
It's been almost total concrete minded resistance to change.
For example when it comes to civilian ops I was involved in a change in the procedures where now a pilot calls ATC directly for a clearance. Where as the MDX pilot was forced to arrange his clearance with Willy ATC through FS a pilot now calls directly for the clearance. Who knows- The MDX accident may not have occurred if the pilot was on the Atc frequency.. Clearly the pilot would have heard of the offer for two different altitudes and the RAAF ATC would have very likely informed the pilot he was going in the wrong direction.
My agenda is very simple. That is to minimize the chance of an MDX type accident happening again.
If changes are made to the RAAF rules and pilots are allowed to flight plan over Williamtown safety will be improved as the Willy controllers will have prior notice of the aircraft and pilots will be able to fly at lower levels and further away from the mountain range.
This thread shows me just how much change is resisted and why it has taken so long go get that unnecessary rule removed.
Over the years I have constantly worked towards modernizing Australian procedures so safety can be improved.
I have had quite a bit of success with AsA /CASA regs but very little when it comes to the military .
It's been almost total concrete minded resistance to change.
For example when it comes to civilian ops I was involved in a change in the procedures where now a pilot calls ATC directly for a clearance. Where as the MDX pilot was forced to arrange his clearance with Willy ATC through FS a pilot now calls directly for the clearance. Who knows- The MDX accident may not have occurred if the pilot was on the Atc frequency.. Clearly the pilot would have heard of the offer for two different altitudes and the RAAF ATC would have very likely informed the pilot he was going in the wrong direction.
My agenda is very simple. That is to minimize the chance of an MDX type accident happening again.
If changes are made to the RAAF rules and pilots are allowed to flight plan over Williamtown safety will be improved as the Willy controllers will have prior notice of the aircraft and pilots will be able to fly at lower levels and further away from the mountain range.
This thread shows me just how much change is resisted and why it has taken so long go get that unnecessary rule removed.
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VH -XXX disrespectful
VH -XXX I have no idea who you are, what your experience is nor your level of knowledge of anything.
Do not, however, attack me personally as it is you who does not know what he is talking about.
Your blithe statement shows your complete lack of exposure to and knowledge of military systems and what we actually do.
Please leave this discussion as you appear to have nothing meaningful to add - nothing.
Do not, however, attack me personally as it is you who does not know what he is talking about.
Your blithe statement shows your complete lack of exposure to and knowledge of military systems and what we actually do.
Please leave this discussion as you appear to have nothing meaningful to add - nothing.
Please leave this discussion as you appear to have nothing meaningful to add - nothing
A newby asking an old hand to leave is plain disrespectful.
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ALL PILOTS READ THIS
1. For some reason many pilots are too scared to talk to air traffic control. You don't ask, you don't get! Make a half reasonable request and ATC will do their level best to help out (unless it's peak hour madness or thunderstorms, XXTSGR, 90 minutes holding and the RADAR just died - then, probably best to be quiet for a bit!
2. Pilots generally WILL NOT USE PAN or MAYDAY. For goodness sake, do it loud and do it early! Working with Mirages I heard and reacted to more PAN and MAYDAY calls in 3 years than most controllers would see and hear in 5 lifetimes!
3. I'm sorry but TALK, ASK. ATC know the airspace and terrain and weather in their area of operations very very well with many being pilots themselves. ATC is highly trained to react to your distress call. Do not be afraid to squawk for help and whack that transponder to whatever ails you!
4. ATC are not mind readers. I have tried through many visits to Aero Clubs, Flying Schools, commercial airline cockpits and when I was training pilots at 1 FTS Ground School to inculcate a mindset of "communicate" - after aviate and navigate of course but don't leave the last one out!
5. I've lost count of the number of times aircraft captains at all levels have failed to communicate their difficulties and I've been caught wanting with expedited clearances, emergency services not ready and so on - all because El Capitan "didn't want to make a fuss".
6. Air Ambulance and Police have no trouble declaring PAN and reason - and ATC react and assist where we can.
7. A clearance was available for this guy - he chose not to take it and fly around to his fate. As far as I'm aware, Sydney and Bankstown were non VMC or were likely to become so before his ETA. It's called PRESS-ON-ITIS and it's killed more pilots, crew and passengers than almost anything else wouldn't you all agree?
2. Pilots generally WILL NOT USE PAN or MAYDAY. For goodness sake, do it loud and do it early! Working with Mirages I heard and reacted to more PAN and MAYDAY calls in 3 years than most controllers would see and hear in 5 lifetimes!
3. I'm sorry but TALK, ASK. ATC know the airspace and terrain and weather in their area of operations very very well with many being pilots themselves. ATC is highly trained to react to your distress call. Do not be afraid to squawk for help and whack that transponder to whatever ails you!
4. ATC are not mind readers. I have tried through many visits to Aero Clubs, Flying Schools, commercial airline cockpits and when I was training pilots at 1 FTS Ground School to inculcate a mindset of "communicate" - after aviate and navigate of course but don't leave the last one out!
5. I've lost count of the number of times aircraft captains at all levels have failed to communicate their difficulties and I've been caught wanting with expedited clearances, emergency services not ready and so on - all because El Capitan "didn't want to make a fuss".
6. Air Ambulance and Police have no trouble declaring PAN and reason - and ATC react and assist where we can.
7. A clearance was available for this guy - he chose not to take it and fly around to his fate. As far as I'm aware, Sydney and Bankstown were non VMC or were likely to become so before his ETA. It's called PRESS-ON-ITIS and it's killed more pilots, crew and passengers than almost anything else wouldn't you all agree?
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A number of years in the military allows me to have an opinion on this matter.
When was the last time a U2 landed at Willy?
You can't for a minute seriously suggest that any activities especially secret military operations at Williamtown should preclude the use of this airspace for others.
Perhaps I should retract my "pffft" statement and I apologize for that.
Aussie Bob, I hear you but a number of others will disagree :-)
When was the last time a U2 landed at Willy?
You can't for a minute seriously suggest that any activities especially secret military operations at Williamtown should preclude the use of this airspace for others.
Perhaps I should retract my "pffft" statement and I apologize for that.
Aussie Bob, I hear you but a number of others will disagree :-)
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I vaguely recollect a Mooney sent out that way which lost a prop. The pilot was killed in the subsequent forced landing. Apologies can't recollect dates names and callsigns.
A procedure can be inherently dangerous without the numbers coming up.
A procedure can be inherently dangerous without the numbers coming up.
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Aussie Bob
Hi...I've been here as long as you have. Just to read and learn.
I did not join to just post on this thread.
I am posting on this thread as I was one of the air traffic controllers to whom Dick Smith refers.
I made my comment about VH-XXX as he attacked me personally that's all.
And, by the way, with my training, knowledge and experience I am hardly a newbie - except to this forum I guess...
If I was a 21 year newly graduated ATC or a similarly aged brand new flying instructor with 200 hours, maybe, just maybe you could get away with that insult...
And it's not about Secret Squirrel ops - its about BUSY - its about a control zone full of returning fighters at minimum fuel with the possibility of ejection if not put straight on the ground - its about perhaps aircraft from other nations doing Joint Operations where they require complete and utter flexibility across a huge expanse of airspace and No. 1 its about the safety of civilian aircraft caught up in that maelstrom.
I did not join to just post on this thread.
I am posting on this thread as I was one of the air traffic controllers to whom Dick Smith refers.
I made my comment about VH-XXX as he attacked me personally that's all.
And, by the way, with my training, knowledge and experience I am hardly a newbie - except to this forum I guess...
If I was a 21 year newly graduated ATC or a similarly aged brand new flying instructor with 200 hours, maybe, just maybe you could get away with that insult...
And it's not about Secret Squirrel ops - its about BUSY - its about a control zone full of returning fighters at minimum fuel with the possibility of ejection if not put straight on the ground - its about perhaps aircraft from other nations doing Joint Operations where they require complete and utter flexibility across a huge expanse of airspace and No. 1 its about the safety of civilian aircraft caught up in that maelstrom.
Last edited by AirTrafficOne; 5th Jun 2014 at 08:14. Reason: Clarity
'Howy' I ain't arguing with you about certain comments that have no doubt offended people etc & I'm not suggesting that Mr Smith get away with it without further explanation but lets say for argument sake (as that's the name of the game now) Dick finally caves in here under the constant pressure & offers some sort of public apology for his comments on this forum only (right or wrong I ain't getting in to that), what will that achieve? All it will do is swell the heads of a few here with a lot of "I told you so" & the general public will be none the wiser. In order to take this stoning match here beyond these pages to have any effect would be to get CH 7 to allow some 'other' facts be presented via say one of you vocal knowledgeable guys & we all know that it's highly unlikely that would happen so any further attacks should be directed to Mr Smith as I mentioned earlier off here as it really achieves nothing other some vindication on a personal level where no one wins & the wounds are kept wide open.
It's just an opinion obviously & of course as long as the Mods let it simmer away here all that is being achieved is an ugly tennis match with the opponents just waiting for someone to slip & fall flat on their faces!
I only hope the families have managed to accept that all is not well in the aviation garden & we are learning & trying to do something about it.
Wmk2
It's just an opinion obviously & of course as long as the Mods let it simmer away here all that is being achieved is an ugly tennis match with the opponents just waiting for someone to slip & fall flat on their faces!
I only hope the families have managed to accept that all is not well in the aviation garden & we are learning & trying to do something about it.
Wmk2
Thread Starter
Username. No not " massive" risk to safety. But a risk that can easily be reduced. So why not do that ?
Perhaps you are judging my actions on what you would do in the same circumstances?
As pilots are still being forced to flight plan to the west of Williamtown I believe it would be a great idea to remove this RAAF restriction before there are more fatalities - don't you?
Perhaps you are judging my actions on what you would do in the same circumstances?
As pilots are still being forced to flight plan to the west of Williamtown I believe it would be a great idea to remove this RAAF restriction before there are more fatalities - don't you?
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Night VFR is also a risk to safety, so lets remove that.
By the way, your continued silence at my two questions (about 2 or 3 pages ago) is telling me all I need to know.
By the way, your continued silence at my two questions (about 2 or 3 pages ago) is telling me all I need to know.
Sorry FTDK, my removing the post left you hanging...thanks for your post.
ATCOne...top posts.
MDX was a case study on the pressure of continuing into poor conditions, making the wrong decisions, and for some unknown reason not waiting for the outcome of his request.
ATCOne...top posts.
MDX was a case study on the pressure of continuing into poor conditions, making the wrong decisions, and for some unknown reason not waiting for the outcome of his request.
Props are for boats!
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Bill Pike,
Just to expand a bit on your tale end brief summary. Also to show in highlighted text the warning signs, that should have registered with the Pilot of VH-MDX and brought some reaction, corrective action or PAN declared at the least.
True he was overhead TRE at 0850 then CRAVN at 0918.
Then from CRAVN he was well north of the CRAVN SGT track. More close to a CRAVN SCO track with the last RADAR psn at 320M/45nm.
He was estimating SGT at 0936.
After passing CRAVN at 0919 he reported severe downdraughts.
AT 0923 he reported he was "in the clag" in IMC.
at 0924 He reported losing his AH and DI and requested to climb to 10000'
AT 0925 He reported his ADF was going all over the place. And also confirmed he was IMC
AT 0928 He was identified by Sydney Sector Radar at 36 nm North of Singleton on the SGT - MSO track.
AT 0929 He advise he was struggling to make 8500'.He requested track direct to Maitland.
AT 0934 He reported picking a fair bit of Ice. And also reported later they thought they a cockpit fire but resolved the issue. He was advised the Maitland lights were for him.
AT 0936 He reports his Standby compass is swinging madly.
AT 0937 He was told to maintain a Gyro heading but stated his AH and DI were not working due to stuffed Vac pump. He reported he was at 7500'.picking up more ice. Then dropped 6500' Last reported 5000'.
Its an absolute tragedy. I just hope they can find wreckage and give the closure the relatives.....
tracked from Taree to Craven then Singleton and into bad weather where some 45 minutes later the aircraft crashed in the Barrington Tops."
True he was overhead TRE at 0850 then CRAVN at 0918.
Then from CRAVN he was well north of the CRAVN SGT track. More close to a CRAVN SCO track with the last RADAR psn at 320M/45nm.
He was estimating SGT at 0936.
After passing CRAVN at 0919 he reported severe downdraughts.
AT 0923 he reported he was "in the clag" in IMC.
at 0924 He reported losing his AH and DI and requested to climb to 10000'
AT 0925 He reported his ADF was going all over the place. And also confirmed he was IMC
AT 0928 He was identified by Sydney Sector Radar at 36 nm North of Singleton on the SGT - MSO track.
AT 0929 He advise he was struggling to make 8500'.He requested track direct to Maitland.
AT 0934 He reported picking a fair bit of Ice. And also reported later they thought they a cockpit fire but resolved the issue. He was advised the Maitland lights were for him.
AT 0936 He reports his Standby compass is swinging madly.
AT 0937 He was told to maintain a Gyro heading but stated his AH and DI were not working due to stuffed Vac pump. He reported he was at 7500'.picking up more ice. Then dropped 6500' Last reported 5000'.
Its an absolute tragedy. I just hope they can find wreckage and give the closure the relatives.....
Thread Starter
Another point is that the pilot was obviously s--t scared of entering the Williamtown control zone without a clearance. Remember his comment to FS that he was getting close.
Can anyone advise what the dimensions were towards Taree in those days? Must have been enormous if you look at the time intervals.
In the USA he would not have required a clearance at that altitude.
Can anyone advise what the dimensions were towards Taree in those days? Must have been enormous if you look at the time intervals.
In the USA he would not have required a clearance at that altitude.
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Atc1. I guess you believe in tooth fairies and Santa and any thing else when you refer to busy. Busy my arse. There no reason for such a large part of that area to be lock up by the military period.
Your just a normal typical military person that think they the only ones that should. Be allowed to fly and we better than the rest of you. Oh so typical.
Dick didn't have a go at anyone person he had a go at the establishment that's a lot different to what you say.
Cheers
Your just a normal typical military person that think they the only ones that should. Be allowed to fly and we better than the rest of you. Oh so typical.
Dick didn't have a go at anyone person he had a go at the establishment that's a lot different to what you say.
Cheers
Thread Starter
Username. Pretty childish
At least one I would say.
However lets say this unnecessary RAAF restriction statistically could cause an accident each 50 years. Still not very safe but it could mean we could have up to another 19 years or more before there are more fatalities.
Surely it's worth making the safety change now - not waiting for the accident and then making the change.
Can anyone advise why there is such a resistance to removing this flight planning restriction? Or is it just concrete minded ness ?
Surely if a clearance is not available (we are told it mostly will be ) the pilot can be told to track via CRAVEN !
At least one I would say.
However lets say this unnecessary RAAF restriction statistically could cause an accident each 50 years. Still not very safe but it could mean we could have up to another 19 years or more before there are more fatalities.
Surely it's worth making the safety change now - not waiting for the accident and then making the change.
Can anyone advise why there is such a resistance to removing this flight planning restriction? Or is it just concrete minded ness ?
Surely if a clearance is not available (we are told it mostly will be ) the pilot can be told to track via CRAVEN !
This thread shows me just how much change is resisted and why it has taken so long go get that unnecessary rule removed.