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Newbie & Flying Training Advice (Merged)

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Newbie & Flying Training Advice (Merged)

Old 24th Aug 2022, 02:41
  #881 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chopz
Hi folks,

So I have read what feels like a million posts trying to determine what the best flight schools are in the Melbourne/ Vic area.

They have all meshed into some sort of abstract art in my head and unfortunately some of the posts are older and no longer relevant.

Could someone shed some light on schools that offer Vet Fee-Help for CPL Diploma courses? The current options seem to be Learn to Fly, RVAC and AAPA. We then have the degree options with RMIT, Swinburne (CAE) and CQU (MFS). Learn to Fly seem to have a good program and a new partnership with Griffith University but some older posts have not exactly rated them highly. Anyone recently experienced these schools and have any thoughts?
Hi Chopz,

TVSA at Bacchus Marsh also offer a VET level diploma course.
I have recently started private training with them and have enjoyed the experience thus far, not having experienced any issues (other than occasional cancellation due to weather or illness with me wanting to keep the same instructor).
The team have been friendly and supportive.
My history was that I originally took lessons when I was 16 and got to my first solo, but that was back in 1996 (a lifetime ago, and I've done nothing but Microsoft flying since).
As I have been progressing, the instructors have monitored my ability and do not seem interested in required me to spend extra hours once having demonstrated competence to a required lesson criteria.

Compared to my previous experience which was at Archerfield with RQAC (now defunct I believe), one thing I have noticed is the lack of time spent traversing from startup to the training area, as the runway is right there and the airfield is in the training area.
Less time idling around means more time practicing lesson skills.
I think that's an advantage of undertaking it at a school that is not based in a controlled airspace.
Of course, controlled airspace has other advantages, but there is plenty of time for that.

Best of luck with your endeavours.
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Old 24th Aug 2022, 23:28
  #882 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DARKMAIZE
TVSA at Bacchus Marsh also offer a VET level diploma course.
I have recently started private training with them and have enjoyed the experience thus far, not having experienced any issues (other than occasional cancellation due to weather or illness with me wanting to keep the same instructor).
The team have been friendly and supportive.
........
That's good to know. YBSS, with its long, paved, cross runways, was my favorite go-to place for landing practice during RPL and PPL training not so long ago ("fly down this road and turn base at the roundabout!") and it was sad when the previous school closed down. From the web site, it seems TVSA have spent quite a load of money on the place and hopefully many of the friendly and helpful people I spoke to when getting PPR remain with the new crowd. I must go back and visit.

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Old 10th Sep 2022, 10:47
  #883 (permalink)  
 
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Flight training to airlines

Hi, I'm interested in being an airline pilot. I just want everyone's opinion on if I should do the Bachelor of aviation with CQU online using HECS or should I pay as I go with a local flight school?
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 03:12
  #884 (permalink)  
 
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In my opinion (and it’s only my opinion). Go self funded if you can afford it. If you have funds already you’ll be finished long before those going through uni. You will also pay a lot less in total. You will, in my experience, get better one on one training with a smaller school that can tailor its course to suit your individual needs better.
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 05:48
  #885 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by engine out
In my opinion (and it’s only my opinion). Go self funded if you can afford it. If you have funds already you’ll be finished long before those going through uni. You will also pay a lot less in total. You will, in my experience, get better one on one training with a smaller school that can tailor its course to suit your individual needs better.
I don't have the funds available, I would be needing to work full time and fly whenever I can. So its hard to say how long it would take self funded, though thinking about 1-2 times per week. Thats why I was thinking bachelor so I can get in and do it covered by HECS/FEE-HELP and it could possibly be done faster. The only thing with HECS is the amount it will end up being and then with it being indexed annually adding to that amount.
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 11:55
  #886 (permalink)  
 
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PLus it is indexed with CPI, not interest rates then there's tens of thousands in "admin fees" added on, which would be better used getting command time!

What's the rush? You need to have an edge over all the thousands that will be graduating from the sausage factories. Command time is what gives you the edge. Be the tortoise, not the hare.
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Old 11th Sep 2022, 13:45
  #887 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop
What's the rush?
If you do the diploma/advanced diploma set at a school that can do FEE HELP loans you'll be finished and job ready with very little out of pocket cost in under two years. It would be almost impossible to complete CPL/MECIR while working to pay for training in double that time.

Yes it's initially more expensive on paper but at the back end of your career every additional year you work could be worth half a million bucks.

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Old 11th Sep 2022, 23:55
  #888 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ajax58
If you do the diploma/advanced diploma set at a school that can do FEE HELP loans you'll be finished and job ready with very little out of pocket cost in under two years. It would be almost impossible to complete CPL/MECIR while working to pay for training in double that time.

Yes it's initially more expensive on paper but at the back end of your career every additional year you work could be worth half a million bucks.
What job are you ready for with 70 hours in command?.
Big difference between a list of acronyms in your licence and being job ready. Command time is what makes you job ready and promotable.
There is an assumption that you will walk straight into a lucrative job straight from flying school. Good luck with that.
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Old 12th Sep 2022, 01:20
  #889 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop
What job are you ready for with 70 hours in command?.
The exact same job you're ready for if you spent five years of weekends getting the exact same qualifications, but three years sooner.
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Old 12th Sep 2022, 02:30
  #890 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ajax58
The exact same job you're ready for if you spent five years of weekends getting the exact same qualifications, but three years sooner.
Not sure if you are giving or receiving, it's a slik sales pitch.

Someone who's done the course part time will have at least 100 hours in command, no expensive ratings that they can't use and will have to spend a lot keeping current and will have spent about half as much to be more job ready. .

I'm speaking as someone who has been employing pilots for 30 years. And as one of the taxpayers who is subsidising this rort.
Someone who has seen the disappointment on the faces of people whose HECS debt is maxed out and, if they did actually finish can't find work because there are thousands of others just like them, who fell for the same trick.. And as their HECS is maxed out they can't do anything else at uni to get a useful qualification!

Last edited by Clare Prop; 12th Sep 2022 at 02:41.
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Old 12th Sep 2022, 03:16
  #891 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop
Not sure if you are giving or receiving, it's a slik sales pitch.

Someone who's done the course part time will have at least 100 hours in command, no expensive ratings that they can't use and will have to spend a lot keeping current and will have spent about half as much to be more job ready. .

I'm speaking as someone who has been employing pilots for 30 years. And as one of the taxpayers who is subsidising this rort.
Someone who has seen the disappointment on the faces of people whose HECS debt is maxed out and, if they did actually finish can't find work because there are thousands of others just like them, who fell for the same trick.. And as their HECS is maxed out they can't do anything else at uni to get a useful qualification!
I'm not sure if you're aware, but you don't need to complete a full CPL/MECIR set of qualifications via student loans. You could, if you so wished, complete a bare CPL in under a year via an AVI50219 diploma course. No expensive ratings necessary and plenty of room in the loan cap to complete another course if needed. Then with the time you've saved you could rent a 152 on weekends to get those 30 extra hours.

I've seen enough in my time to form my own opinions on the positive and negative aspects of various training options. Personally I'm happy to have my tax dollars help people access flight training. Recent history is littered with far more egregious government spending.
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Old 12th Sep 2022, 07:40
  #892 (permalink)  
 
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For that amount of money, that is normally only accessible to people in the very top percentiles in ATAR, there should be a very high bar to entry.
The only other courses that can borrow that much money are medicine, dentistry and vet.
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Old 13th Sep 2022, 10:14
  #893 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop
For that amount of money, that is normally only accessible to people in the very top percentiles in ATAR, there should be a very high bar to entry.
The only other courses that can borrow that much money are medicine, dentistry and vet.
The AVI50219 diploma runs about $82k. The loan limit for non-aviation courses is about $109k at the moment. There's plenty of non-aviation degrees that could be completed within the cap with CSP unit fees around $1k/semester.

Granted, most student pilots won't do this and would jump straight into the $40k advanced diploma for the MECIR, or just be enrolled in a three year degree program.

For what it's worth, I think the degree programs are not worth it, but the diploma/advanced diploma have their place. I know many pilots who simply wouldn't have had the opportunity to pursue a flying career if they couldn't access a student loan.

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Old 18th Sep 2022, 07:36
  #894 (permalink)  
 
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Australian Airline Cadetships

I am currently 15 years old and want to be a pilot. I am wondering how competitive the Airline Cadetships will be in a few years down under. While it's still a few years until I'm old enough to apply, I'm wondering if the JetStar cadetship is good option as assuming I'm lucky enough to get accepted into the program, I could be an A320 F/O within 2 or 3 years of training. Or I could go through the traditional method to be a pilot and get my CPL, then build enough hours as a flight instructor to get employed at an airline. However with the traditional method your not guaranteed a spot at an airline whereas have briefly spoke to 2 different Airline pilots, Both of them telling me that with a cadetship your pretty much are guaranteed a job as long as you pass everything (They only say a job isn't guaranteed because some people fail the exams). I will probably get my RPL license in 1 or 2 years but I've heard from other forums that Cadetship programs prioritise people with little or no previous aircraft experience. I also understand that due to Covid, there will be an overflow of pilots who have lost their jobs and airline positions could be very sparse but this might clear up in a few years. I get good grades in Maths, English and Science and I have an Interest in Planes. Any advice would be appreciated.
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Old 18th Sep 2022, 19:29
  #895 (permalink)  
 
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If being an airline pilot is what you want, a cadetship is the fastest way to get there.

If you want, and can afford to fly beforehand, then to the best of my knowledge that won’t put you at any kind of disadvantage to be selected as a cadet. Bear in mind that you most likely would have to repeat any lessons you’d already done as most cadet programs start at lesson 1, regardless of prior experience.

At 15 I also only wanted to be a pilot. Consider the future of the profession - downward pressure on terms and conditions, lots of missed birthdays, Christmases, family events. At your age automated airliners starts to be a real concern too, how will the next generation of airliners look? Single pilot? No pilots? Who knows, but I suspect it’s coming.

I feel lucky that I’ve had a relatively good career so far, but the good jobs are becoming fewer and farther between. Unless you have a green card. If you’re open to moving overseas, have a look at the thread regarding Aussies working in the states. If it’s still an option in a few years it’s worth considering.

I would actively discourage my son from going into aviation. I would encourage him to do something where there is more likelihood of him becoming his own boss, even if he didn’t want to run his own business at least he’d have the option.

All that said when I was 15 almost nothing could’ve discouraged me from choosing this career, but that’s my take on it after 20 odd years in the industry.
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Old 18th Sep 2022, 21:57
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Considering the cost around self funded CPL/FIR/IFR is some mind boggling number, competition for cadet courses will continue to increase and increase from other like minded pilots. The Jetstar course gets thousands and thousands of applications, just take into account everyone essentially walks away disappointed.

On the flip, It’s just not viable for many to spend what now is a house deposit on flight training, to then earn 50 grand for the next 6/7/8 years post that. It really is a terrible investment if you look closely at it, vs taking another career path. I am lucky I have an understanding wifey who put up with all that associated bull****, just take that into account also, the impact on others. My family made it to the other end with me, a stable left hand seat, good retirement funding job, however only just, and I mean just……nearly fell apart (well actually did) during GA jobs and early Jet jobs moving around. Probably the reason I wouldn’t do this again, not get my kids into it, the family pressures it can take due to whatever employment route you end up taking. Taking multiple ‘breaks’ with our relationship with young kids while I battle it out in GA and early Airline jobs wasn’t a great experience.

However with the traditional method your not guaranteed a spot at an airline whereas have briefly spoke to 2 different Airline pilots,
I disagree with that, assuming one is a competent individual, self funding and being job ready mid this decade, throw on about 10 years ‘in the GA trenches’ and I really think jobs will be plentiful in larger aircraft/operators. Generation changeover in this profession, down under, is the 2030s, in which very little will remain post that, those getting first GA jobs in the not to far future in my opinion, are going to have pretty good careers, once all us old buggers depart. I think will be some retention issues at some places here throughout the back half of this decade also, when the foreign players start throwing cash around again, further opening up opportunities here.


Last edited by PoppaJo; 18th Sep 2022 at 22:19.
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Old 19th Sep 2022, 00:18
  #897 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hursty22
I am currently 15 years old and want to be a pilot. I am wondering how competitive the Airline Cadetships will be in a few years down under.
Very. Previous programs had success rates of only the top 1-2% of applicants. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t apply, just prepare yourself for selection with the upmost effort.

While it's still a few years until I'm old enough to apply, I'm wondering if the JetStar cadetship is good option as assuming I'm lucky enough to get accepted into the program, I could be an A320 F/O within 2 or 3 years of training.
If you gain entrance into said program it’ll be because of your effort and preparation, not luck. If you’re successful in gaining entrance to that program and graduating you could potentially be an A320 F/O in 2 years. Australia is an outlier in that most of the rest of the world (outside the USA) you go from basic CPL/IR training to F/O on a turboprop or a jet with about 200hrs as standard.

Both of them telling me that with a cadetship your pretty much are guaranteed a job as long as you pass everything (They only say a job isn't guaranteed because some people fail the exams).
Or if the company that gave you that cadetship
isn’t hiring at the end of it. But if that’s the case you’re no worse off than one who trained at a traditional GA flying school, and when hiring does pick up again you should be first cab off the rank for recruitment.

I will probably get my RPL license in 1 or 2 years but I've heard from other forums that Cadetship programs prioritise people with little or no previous aircraft experience.
They like to see some interest in aviation (maybe an RPL or no more than a few dozen hours). But not too much, firstly you’ll just have to waste money doing the whole CPL course from scratch again. And secondly they do like to train to their SOPs, easier to do with a blank slate in some cases.

I also understand that due to Covid, there will be an overflow of pilots who have lost their jobs and airline positions could be very sparse but this might clear up in a few years.
It’s already cleared up now. As Asian capacity returns over the next year shortages will get even worse.

The QGPA and the Rex Cadet program are either training new courses or accepting applications for upcoming courses right now. You still have a bit of time ahead of you as you won’t be starting training for at least 3-4 years. By then a recruitment wave will have passed and a lull period may be in effect. But you’ll never be able to time a wave perfectly.

I get good grades in Maths, English and Science and I have an Interest in Planes. Any advice would be appreciated.
Book smarts and aviation interest is one thing, but airlines will really want to see things like communication skills, ability to operate in a team, maturity, ability to get along with other adults (whom you’ll be working with).
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Old 19th Sep 2022, 02:28
  #898 (permalink)  
 
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I think I will probably get my RPL, then apply for the Cadetships like Jetstar Cadet, Virgin Australia, Rex and the Qantas Group Pilot Academy. If I'm accepted into none of the Cadetship programs then I'll probably have to pay a fortune to get my CPL, then become a flight Instructor and work my way up with GA.

"Book smarts and aviation interest is one thing, but airlines will really want to see things like communication skills, ability to operate in a team, maturity, ability to get along with other adults (whom you’ll be working with)."
I have a strong work ethic and I'm motivated to become a pilot, and I'm a social person with good communication skills who would have no trouble to operating in a team, being mature, and getting along with other pilots. I'm also involved in physically demanding sports and believe that I can work well in high pressure environments.
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Old 20th Sep 2022, 05:36
  #899 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hursty22
I have a strong work ethic
The effort needed on a cadet course will far exceed what you need in high school or a part time job,

and I'm a social person with good communication skills who would have no trouble to operating in a team, being mature, and getting along with other pilots.
Are you sure about that? You’re only 15 and you aren’t even close to the end of high school. You’ll be entering a demanding program where you’ll be expected to be responsible for your progression and effort, and be expected to be at an adult level of maturity quite quickly. Far beyond where you will be at grade 9-10.

A lot of cadets taken years back had some life experience outside of high school, whether it be work, uni or other training. Although not rare for one to go directly from high school to cadet training within a few months, most who had a few years of experience in the adult world showed better maturity, communication and other HF skills than those who were applying in their final year of school, and were favoured in selection.

These programs aren’t just for high school leavers, and it wouldn’t be unusual to be told whilst they like your character they think you could benefit from a few years “life experience”, and to reapply then.

From your point of view just concentrate on finishing high school for now, as you would have at least 3 years to go, and start seriously thinking about career later. If you can get some mentors, active adult pilots employed in the industry, who can guide you along the way, and are prepared to give you honest constructive feedback about your character.

Whilst you may believe you have good teamwork and communication skills and are mature you are not able to objectively judge that yourself, especially at your age. A good mentor can assess that and provide you with constructive feedback if required.

I'm also involved in physically demanding sports and believe that I can work well in high pressure environments.
There’s no correlation between playing “physically demanding sports” and competence as a pilot. Some of the biggest ‘jocks’ can be quite average in the flying department.

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Old 20th Sep 2022, 06:23
  #900 (permalink)  
 
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I get good grades in Maths, English and Science
English??

Perhaps learn the difference between "your" and "you're". In aviation there will also be "yaw" to trip you up. We Spelling Police are always on patrol.
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