How many hours student pilot generally have when going first solo?
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Hi Aimpoint,
Thank you so much for the comments. I knew it is a bit hard to give advice with just a video, but I do appreciate any advice from you.
I think your observation is very accurate.
- I am aware that I was too fast on final. It is around 75-80kts and reduced to 60-65 at the threshold. There were a couple of circuts after these three and I paid more attention to the airspeed on final and it was getting better. I will keep working on it next time.
- The approach profile inconsistency is also correct. I think it is because I fly base leg differently every time, so the height at the point I turn final is different, sometimes I turn a bit early, sometimes late. I think I should descend slower if the circuit is wide?
- flaring too high, I am not really sure about this one. It seems sometimes I can do it okay, I think the first landing in the video might be fine? but the second one is definitely a bit high, so I have a bit 'heavy' landing at the end.
- I did try to trim better and fly 'hands off', but definitely need more practise on it.
- the aileron to control drift off and rudder to straighten nose, if this is the answer to my question in last post, my understanding is, if I am a couple of meters left to the center line just before flare, I should strenghten the nose and use a bit right aileron to get aircraft drifting to the center line, do I understand it right?
With all the posts and advices in this thread, I am not really worry about the solo moment now. I just want to get myself ready and get those problems fixed, which can make me really be prepared for the solo.
I will take your advice and integrated with what I learned from my instructor and come to my own plan to improve, so not taking anything blindly. Thanks for the caring.
Thank you so much for the comments. I knew it is a bit hard to give advice with just a video, but I do appreciate any advice from you.
I think your observation is very accurate.
- I am aware that I was too fast on final. It is around 75-80kts and reduced to 60-65 at the threshold. There were a couple of circuts after these three and I paid more attention to the airspeed on final and it was getting better. I will keep working on it next time.
- The approach profile inconsistency is also correct. I think it is because I fly base leg differently every time, so the height at the point I turn final is different, sometimes I turn a bit early, sometimes late. I think I should descend slower if the circuit is wide?
- flaring too high, I am not really sure about this one. It seems sometimes I can do it okay, I think the first landing in the video might be fine? but the second one is definitely a bit high, so I have a bit 'heavy' landing at the end.
- I did try to trim better and fly 'hands off', but definitely need more practise on it.
- the aileron to control drift off and rudder to straighten nose, if this is the answer to my question in last post, my understanding is, if I am a couple of meters left to the center line just before flare, I should strenghten the nose and use a bit right aileron to get aircraft drifting to the center line, do I understand it right?
With all the posts and advices in this thread, I am not really worry about the solo moment now. I just want to get myself ready and get those problems fixed, which can make me really be prepared for the solo.
I will take your advice and integrated with what I learned from my instructor and come to my own plan to improve, so not taking anything blindly. Thanks for the caring.
Roger H, I think you may need to find another instructor.
I am PPL with bugga all hours but you are being taught to fly a 3degree profile. You are carrying too much speed for a C172 you are waaaaay flat on your approaches, because of that speed you are throttling back a long way out to keep that profile to the flare...which is pretty good...the flare that is.
Just looking at the times on your three approaches. Either your instructor is slack or you are being taught to hold 650ft on base until you intercept the final approach. Then you are keeping 70-75kts at 300fpm all the way to the threshold???? This smells like a sausage factory...unless you want to continue ALL the way from ab-initio to a direct entry cadet into the airlines, your instructors are doing you a great disservice at your current level of training....please note...I am only PPL but thats what it looks like to me.
EDIT- Get your instructor to show you a power off glide approach...hopefully, you will see what I mean
I am PPL with bugga all hours but you are being taught to fly a 3degree profile. You are carrying too much speed for a C172 you are waaaaay flat on your approaches, because of that speed you are throttling back a long way out to keep that profile to the flare...which is pretty good...the flare that is.
Just looking at the times on your three approaches. Either your instructor is slack or you are being taught to hold 650ft on base until you intercept the final approach. Then you are keeping 70-75kts at 300fpm all the way to the threshold???? This smells like a sausage factory...unless you want to continue ALL the way from ab-initio to a direct entry cadet into the airlines, your instructors are doing you a great disservice at your current level of training....please note...I am only PPL but thats what it looks like to me.
EDIT- Get your instructor to show you a power off glide approach...hopefully, you will see what I mean
Last edited by OZBUSDRIVER; 23rd May 2012 at 06:15.
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Then you are keeping 70-75kts at 300fpm all the way to the threshold????
but I am not sure if I got your point? is it the approach too flat because the speed is too high?
Let's not start a "3 degree profile/sausage factory/glides approaches should be the way to land" debate in this thread. It's been done in the past and won't help Roger. It's up to the school to teach the technique they think is right, no matter the 'experts' opinions on PPrune.
Affirm. Remember though, the slower airspeed means you will need greater control inputs to get the desired result. I found a lot of students were scared of using too much aileron to counteract drift because they thought they were going to strike a wing against the runway - this is highly unlikely.
Why do you turn base at a different point each time? Is it because you have traffic in front of you, or because you're not keeping the runway in sight (or don't know when to turn base using visual cues)? Yes, if the circuit is wide you should descend on base at a lower rate of descent to avoid being too low on final.
Some approaches appeared to be around 75kts over the threshold. If you are fast, the hold-off is going to take much longer and you will land too far down the runway. This is a major item that must be fixed before anyone will send you solo.
No. The approach is 'flat' when you are too low on final i.e. the approach angle is very small, therefore 'flatter' than a steeper approach. This can be completely independent of speed.
- the aileron to control drift off and rudder to straighten nose, if this is
the answer to my question in last post, my understanding is, if I am a couple of meters left to the center line just before flare, I should strenghten the nose and use a bit right aileron to get aircraft drifting to the center line, do I
understand it right?
the answer to my question in last post, my understanding is, if I am a couple of meters left to the center line just before flare, I should strenghten the nose and use a bit right aileron to get aircraft drifting to the center line, do I
understand it right?
- The approach profile inconsistency is also correct. I think it is because I
fly base leg differently every time, so the height at the point I turn final is
different, sometimes I turn a bit early, sometimes late. I think I should
descend slower if the circuit is wide?
fly base leg differently every time, so the height at the point I turn final is
different, sometimes I turn a bit early, sometimes late. I think I should
descend slower if the circuit is wide?
I am aware that I was too fast on final. It is around 75-80kts and reduced to 60-65 at the threshold.
but I am not sure if I got your point? is it the approach too flat because the speed is too high?
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Thanks Aimpoint!
Yes, this is also my concern on using aileron at the flare time, it seems that much of control input will make the wing drop too much. I think I can try it next time.
Sorry Aimpoint, I think what I mentioned is I fly base leg differently, not turning to base differently. I always turn base at the same location, sometimes goes a bit wider due to traffic to follow, but I think my skills on managing the descend rate on base is still not accurate enough, so sometimes I turn final at 600ft, sometimes at 700ft, sometimes 550ft which makes the starting point of final at different height, thus the different approach profile. I think I need to work on how to fly base leg better at different conditions.
yes, totally agree with you. This is a major issue and it must be fixed. In fact, I have paid much attention to the airspeed on final in the the circuits I flew that day after these three and tried to control the speed on final at 65kts and 60kts on threshold. Make a couple of pretty good landings too. I will keep working on it and make it consistent.
This is where I got a bit confused. I know the flatter or steeper has nothing to do with the speed. I think I kind get a little bit of what it means now. I knew there is an opinion that "glides approaches should be the way to land" instead of this flatter powered approach? If I did not misunderstand what it is, as you said Aimpoint, I believe that is just different techniques, like I heard about in US they taught in that "gliding approach" way all the time. It sounds that this debate has been going on many times in the forum, so no any intention to start it again.
I found a lot of students were scared of using too much aileron to counteract drift because they thought they were going to strike a wing against the runway - this is highly unlikely.
Why do you turn base at a different point each time? Is it because you have traffic in front of you, or because you're not keeping the runway in sight (or don't know when to turn base using visual cues)? Yes, if the circuit is wide you should descend on base at a lower rate of descent to avoid being too low on final.
Some approaches appeared to be around 75kts over the threshold. If you are fast, the hold-off is going to take much longer and you will land too far down the runway. This is a major item that must be fixed before anyone will send you solo.
No. The approach is 'flat' when you are too low on final i.e. the approach angle is very small, therefore 'flatter' than a steeper approach. This can be completely independent of speed.
Roger, appols for being a bit harsh there. AND overstepped myself a bit. You are flying out of Moorabbin so I am needing a good kick. I am chastising myself for this. Appology, mate. You are hitting the right spot exactly 1nm from the runway threshold at 500ft. OK.
My advice will now seem somewhat devalued...and cannot blame you for this.
So, combination of power setting and attitude gives you a low descent rate and faster speed. From the look of this in a better light, fixing up the base leg could well mean not starting your descent until after the turn and until you get a bit closer to that exact same final turn point you are using now.
Are you starting your descent immeadiatly after turning base?
MB is notorious for wide circuits. Keeping power up to maintain height and then keeping near that power setting down final will result in that profile. Try ensuring you are at 1500rpm at that same final position should result in the correct profile and a lower speed. If you want, you could fly a C152 at the same approach speed as a B200 and still follow the same profile as you would as if you were at full flap and 60kts...it is that sight picture that remains the same.
After digging myself a huge hole, I shall now try and bury myself
Appologies once again...looking at your flare, you do not have far to go...just adjust your descent on base so you keep a more even profile...but you certainly appear safe...just cannot hear what your instructor is saying...if he is quiet or less talkative than previous flights you are knocking on the door...keep it safe
My advice will now seem somewhat devalued...and cannot blame you for this.
So, combination of power setting and attitude gives you a low descent rate and faster speed. From the look of this in a better light, fixing up the base leg could well mean not starting your descent until after the turn and until you get a bit closer to that exact same final turn point you are using now.
Are you starting your descent immeadiatly after turning base?
MB is notorious for wide circuits. Keeping power up to maintain height and then keeping near that power setting down final will result in that profile. Try ensuring you are at 1500rpm at that same final position should result in the correct profile and a lower speed. If you want, you could fly a C152 at the same approach speed as a B200 and still follow the same profile as you would as if you were at full flap and 60kts...it is that sight picture that remains the same.
After digging myself a huge hole, I shall now try and bury myself
Appologies once again...looking at your flare, you do not have far to go...just adjust your descent on base so you keep a more even profile...but you certainly appear safe...just cannot hear what your instructor is saying...if he is quiet or less talkative than previous flights you are knocking on the door...keep it safe
Last edited by OZBUSDRIVER; 23rd May 2012 at 09:52.
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Yep,
totally agree that nothing you are doing looks unsafe. You can't be too far off.
Speed control on final appears to be your biggest issue. Get that sorted and your approaches will follow suit.
You mentioned in one post about targetting 300 fpm descent on final. That's a new one for me. Your aim point and airspeed are the most important items when on final.
5 mile circuits at MB.... eeek. Almost standard procedure there due to some of the sausage factories.
There are ways to deal with it. The simplest is just slow down on downwind. Select 2200 rpm and let the guy flying the 5er get ahead of you, even if you are flying inside him. By slowing down that little bit, you'll be able to fly your 3miler and remain behind him. You'll be surprised how far behind him you will get on one circuit alone, but you'll undo that with a 75 knot final.
You mentioned trimming is still a bit of an issue. Read back what several of us said about that, then look at the video and your left hand.
Thanks for having the nads to put your video's up. Was quite enjoyable viewing. (sincere, not sarcasm here)
Cheers
Jas
totally agree that nothing you are doing looks unsafe. You can't be too far off.
Speed control on final appears to be your biggest issue. Get that sorted and your approaches will follow suit.
You mentioned in one post about targetting 300 fpm descent on final. That's a new one for me. Your aim point and airspeed are the most important items when on final.
5 mile circuits at MB.... eeek. Almost standard procedure there due to some of the sausage factories.
There are ways to deal with it. The simplest is just slow down on downwind. Select 2200 rpm and let the guy flying the 5er get ahead of you, even if you are flying inside him. By slowing down that little bit, you'll be able to fly your 3miler and remain behind him. You'll be surprised how far behind him you will get on one circuit alone, but you'll undo that with a 75 knot final.
You mentioned trimming is still a bit of an issue. Read back what several of us said about that, then look at the video and your left hand.
Thanks for having the nads to put your video's up. Was quite enjoyable viewing. (sincere, not sarcasm here)
Cheers
Jas
You mentioned in one post about targetting 300 fpm descent on final. That's a new one for me. Your aim point and airspeed are the most important items when on final.
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Originally Posted by blacklabel
Yes power controls airspeed...
They're interrelated, all back to the original formula "power + attitude = performance".
The most common technique these days is to use attitude to control the aim point (therefore profile) and power to control the airspeed.
I would be increasing the power and stopping/reducing the descent but making a slight pitch up attitude adjustment. What would you do? We're going to do the same thing no matter what theory we subscribe to.
The most common technique these days is to use attitude to control the aim point (therefore profile) and power to control the airspeed.
Airspeed with power? How do you recover from too low too slow?
Last edited by Aimpoint; 23rd May 2012 at 22:21.
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Hey OzBusDriver, there is nothing to apologies about at all. I knew you were trying to help me so thank you for your advices. You are not on that airplane and it is very difficult to make any comments out of just this video shot, and I did not mention it is YMMB, so that is completely all right and I really appreciate your help.
I think in these three laps, I started descending during the base turn. I reduced the power on later downwind and do a descending turn to base. When sometimes goes wide or sometimes goes narrow, I was not managing the descend rate on base very well, still need more practise and experience on this.
Yes, completely understand this. I did have a couple of circuits that day which I managed speed on final a little bit better, maybe I can edit another piece of vide and post here.
Thansk a lot for the encourgement.
Instructor did not talk as much as before, so I am making some progress! Thanks for the help.
Are you starting your descent immeadiatly after turning base?
it is that sight picture that remains the same.
looking at your flare, you do not have far to go...
just adjust your descent on base so you keep a more even profile...but you certainly appear safe...just cannot hear what your instructor is saying...if he is quiet or less talkative than previous flights you are knocking on the door...keep it safe
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Hi Jas,
Thanks for your comments. I have start workign on my speed control issue on final so it will be fixed shortly I believe.
I am sorry for the confusion, this 300fpm thing (actually 5 times ground speed, so 60kts make 300fpm) is just a rule of thumb my instructor taught me, I completely understand aiming point and speed are things I should pay attention to on visual approach, never tried or think about targetting a descend rate. It might be used as another source to confirm the profile, but never targetting on it.
Wow, never think about I can do this, what should I tell the tower when he tell me to follow a warrior on a wide circuit?
Yes, that is what I am doing and there a heaps of great advices from your guys.
Great to know it is a 'enjoyable viewing', not a horrified one. Thanks for your good comments.
Thanks for your comments. I have start workign on my speed control issue on final so it will be fixed shortly I believe.
You mentioned in one post about targetting 300 fpm descent on final. That's a new one for me. Your aim point and airspeed are the most important items when on final.
There are ways to deal with it. The simplest is just slow down on downwind. Select 2200 rpm and let the guy flying the 5er get ahead of you, even if you are flying inside him. By slowing down that little bit, you'll be able to fly your 3miler and remain behind him.
You mentioned trimming is still a bit of an issue. Read back what several of us said about that, then look at the video and your left hand.
Thanks for having the nads to put your video's up. Was quite enjoyable viewing. (sincere, not sarcasm here)
Thanks for your good comments.
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Jas is right - in 14 years of flying I've never targetting a certain descent rate during a visual approach to landing (an instrument approach is a bit different - but you'll get to that later). Get your aim point right and control the airspeed with power. There are too many variables to worry about a target rate of descent.
I am really sorry for the confusion, this 300fpm thing (actually 5 times ground speed, so 60kts make 300fpm) is just a rule of thumb my instructor taught me, I completely understand aiming point and speed are things I should pay attention to on visual approach, never tried or think about targetting a descend rate. It might be used as another source to confirm the profile, but never targetting on it.
thanks for your comments though.
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Having a look at your rate of descent on final is a secondary way of assessing your profile, i.e 5 times ground speed equals 3deg or 5% profile. Convenient especially at night when its always reassuring to be extra sure of perspective and profile because of obstacle clearance considerations.
Coming up to your first solo i wouldn't worry about that stuff. Yes power controls airspeed and use attitude to maintain your aiming point at a fixed position in your windshield hence maintaining profile.
What is important is that you coordinate the two i.e your attitude and your power, and understand the secondary effects of both. Left hand forward, lower the nose, airspeed increases, reduce power and vice versa.
It is that coordination that is important coupled with your rudder / aileron work to control the centre line which is the essential element of a stable approach.
If your approach is stable in terms of centreline, airspeed and profile, the flare should be easy, just reduce the power to iddle over the threshold and progressively gently apply backpressure to a straight and level attitude until the main wheels touch the ground.
Crosswind techniques are add on skills that come later.
I suggest you start listening to your instructor instead of going on here and ask every expert for his opinion.
Coming up to your first solo i wouldn't worry about that stuff. Yes power controls airspeed and use attitude to maintain your aiming point at a fixed position in your windshield hence maintaining profile.
What is important is that you coordinate the two i.e your attitude and your power, and understand the secondary effects of both. Left hand forward, lower the nose, airspeed increases, reduce power and vice versa.
It is that coordination that is important coupled with your rudder / aileron work to control the centre line which is the essential element of a stable approach.
If your approach is stable in terms of centreline, airspeed and profile, the flare should be easy, just reduce the power to iddle over the threshold and progressively gently apply backpressure to a straight and level attitude until the main wheels touch the ground.
Crosswind techniques are add on skills that come later.
I suggest you start listening to your instructor instead of going on here and ask every expert for his opinion.
Thank you for the comments, but I am afraid that is not what I am asking here. What you said are absolutely correct, they are exact what is printed on the text book and I have read them hundreds of time and completely understand it (believe me, I am a chinese and very good on reading textbooks), but it is not the answer I am seeking here.
What I am asking here is about how to do it, not what to do. I knew what to do but flying is a technique which can only be mastered by practising. So I posted the video and hope the experts here can point out what I did correct and what I did wrong so I can keep on the good one and fix the bad ones. I also asked questions which has not been talked about on the text book like if I am a couple of meters left to the center line and just about to flare, what should I do.
I got heaps of good advices from these guys, some tips like holding stick with three fingers etc, they are all small things, but they are the ones which will help me to achieve what is described on text book and I think that is the reason why we cannot learn fly just by reading the book.
Also, I would like say I have been listening to my instructor very carefully since I started my training, otherwise, I might not get this far. However I do not see it will do any harm to ask more advices here from those experts about their opinion, they give me a different perspective and with their experience they might be able to point out the problem both myself and my instructor not noticed.
Cheers,
Roger
Nunc est bibendum
(actually 5 times ground speed, so 60kts make 300fpm)
You made a comment on the last page about how to get back to centreline if you're adrift coming into the flare. It's too late at that stage to worry too much about trying to get back to the centreline prior to touchdown. Sure, you don't want to drift too far downwind so a go around is the right solution if that occurs or get it on the ground a bit more quickly. If at the flare you're off the centreline then as long as you're not drifting downwind at a great rate you need to accept that and live with it. Get back on the centre line once you're on the ground.
I have one other bit of advice. There has been some excellent comment and advice from many contributors here. However you're reaching the point where it's all piling on top of each other and I get the impression you're trying to encompass all the feedback into your flying when the reality is you may not yet have the mental processing ability (when flying) of actually doing all that. If there is one bit of advice it would be to KISS. Take it right back to basics on what you need to achieve. Sometimes, listening to too much advice just crowds out the basics.
Good luck and remember to enjoy it. It's not supposed to be hard work- even when it is!