MERGED: Alligator Airways Grounded
The worse thing that happened on that flight was having someone with a camera. 
In these days of camera phones, everyone has a camera, and film & pictures get every righteous second guesser under the sun crawling out of the woodwork. Ask poor old John Quadrio. http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...-s-latest.html
Before cameras - it's a minor incident and learning experience.
After cameras - it becomes a major incident and career attack.
In these days of camera phones, everyone has a camera, and film & pictures get every righteous second guesser under the sun crawling out of the woodwork. Ask poor old John Quadrio. http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...-s-latest.html
Before cameras - it's a minor incident and learning experience.
After cameras - it becomes a major incident and career attack.
Denys I must say well done for logging on and posting about this, not many people would have the courage to do so.
As a low hour CPL I can understand that at the time you were under the pump and perhaps didnt have a clear mind to make a reject decision with things seemingly piling up on you, as said these things come with experience.
I like to think I would have rejected the take off, but I wasnt there that day and Im not you. As for the outcome personally Ive learnt from your mistake as Im sure you have. I hope your career dosnt take to large of a hit and you can move on.
I had friends waiting on a start at Gator when this happened, their demise is sad news for all indeed.
As a low hour CPL I can understand that at the time you were under the pump and perhaps didnt have a clear mind to make a reject decision with things seemingly piling up on you, as said these things come with experience.
I like to think I would have rejected the take off, but I wasnt there that day and Im not you. As for the outcome personally Ive learnt from your mistake as Im sure you have. I hope your career dosnt take to large of a hit and you can move on.
I had friends waiting on a start at Gator when this happened, their demise is sad news for all indeed.
So the lessons we have learned from this?
There is no black and white, just shades of gray.
Don't judge your fellow aviators, unless ou yourself are perfect.
But for the grace of god go I.
If it can happen, it probably will.
The regs are written in other peoples blood.
Learn to say no.
When being rushed, slow down.
Experience is often gained the hard way.
Denys, I wish you well with your career. If I see you around I'll be happy to buy you a beer. Dont give up and when questioned in future interviews about this, don't rationalize or make excuses. Admit you were low time, inexperienced and made the wrong decision. And most importantly you have learned from it. I'd hire you over another clean skin. I know you wont make the same mistake again. I couldn't guarantee the clean skin wouldn't.
I'd also keep in touch with Ged. He's a good guy and while most probably pretty pissed at the whole affair, is more than happy to give you a second chance.
There is no black and white, just shades of gray.
Don't judge your fellow aviators, unless ou yourself are perfect.
But for the grace of god go I.
If it can happen, it probably will.
The regs are written in other peoples blood.
Learn to say no.
When being rushed, slow down.
Experience is often gained the hard way.
Denys, I wish you well with your career. If I see you around I'll be happy to buy you a beer. Dont give up and when questioned in future interviews about this, don't rationalize or make excuses. Admit you were low time, inexperienced and made the wrong decision. And most importantly you have learned from it. I'd hire you over another clean skin. I know you wont make the same mistake again. I couldn't guarantee the clean skin wouldn't.
I'd also keep in touch with Ged. He's a good guy and while most probably pretty pissed at the whole affair, is more than happy to give you a second chance.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: ChCh NZ
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am still not sure how grey 'The aircraft is unserviceable, it does not have a valid C of A' is.....
As for standing up for yourself. Most certainly... more-so in this industry than others.
I have had to remove myself from the workplace on at least two occasions when I thought it was getting too risky, ie go home for some hours, weeks.
Once I said I would only come back when a certain customer had removed his aircraft from the hangar.
Another time I was asked to remove myself from the work place for my views.
So three entirely seperate events....
In each case there was a fatal accident shortly thereafter.
Yep... it is not difficult to see who is about to kill themselves, (or have the boss and his methods kill them), the idea is to put as much distance between yourself and the accident as possible.
Looking for a new job is nothing compared to standing before the courts.. some of my workmates ended up facing manslaughter charges.
Is it possible that Denys was 2' from it also ?
Never ever tolerate dodgy operators...
It is just not worth it.
You haven't lived until you have done a week in an African jail...
As for standing up for yourself. Most certainly... more-so in this industry than others.
I have had to remove myself from the workplace on at least two occasions when I thought it was getting too risky, ie go home for some hours, weeks.
Once I said I would only come back when a certain customer had removed his aircraft from the hangar.
Another time I was asked to remove myself from the work place for my views.
So three entirely seperate events....
In each case there was a fatal accident shortly thereafter.
Yep... it is not difficult to see who is about to kill themselves, (or have the boss and his methods kill them), the idea is to put as much distance between yourself and the accident as possible.
Looking for a new job is nothing compared to standing before the courts.. some of my workmates ended up facing manslaughter charges.
Is it possible that Denys was 2' from it also ?
Never ever tolerate dodgy operators...
It is just not worth it.
You haven't lived until you have done a week in an African jail...
Last edited by baron_beeza; 11th Jun 2012 at 22:44.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Speaking of getting a new job, I really need one.
CASA told me that they have no intentions to cancel or suspend my licence.
If you know where to get one please let me know
CASA told me that they have no intentions to cancel or suspend my licence.
If you know where to get one please let me know
Alligator
Denys,
Take my hat off to you for your attitude to your career, and you determination to improve yourself. However my advice would be to avoid at all costs getting involved in this forum and discussing the incident. Admitting liability or mistakes on a public forum may come back to bite you. Say nothing to people who are not directly involved in it. Pprune really isn't the forum to be discussing this issue. The nature of this industry is that what appear to be people with your interests at heart can quickly turn, or you can be manipulated by people with far more experience than yourself.
Good luck and your attitude will hopefully take you far in the industry. Good luck.
Take my hat off to you for your attitude to your career, and you determination to improve yourself. However my advice would be to avoid at all costs getting involved in this forum and discussing the incident. Admitting liability or mistakes on a public forum may come back to bite you. Say nothing to people who are not directly involved in it. Pprune really isn't the forum to be discussing this issue. The nature of this industry is that what appear to be people with your interests at heart can quickly turn, or you can be manipulated by people with far more experience than yourself.
Good luck and your attitude will hopefully take you far in the industry. Good luck.
Denys, I am no longer in a hiring and firing position, but if I were, I would hire you in a heartbeat. The lessons you learned and the way you have 'fessed up should make any Chief Pilot consider you for a job.
Just be sure at any interview that you do 'fess up' and tell the whole story, warts and all. If he doesn't hire you because of this one mistake so early in your career, he is the di!ckhead, not you.
Oh, and despite all you did wrong, bloody good handling to nurse it around the circuit the way you did. Plenty others would have stacked it.
And further - you did not bring Alligator down. They were fcuk'd anyway.
Re the other comments here from/to the outgoing Chief Pilot.
CASA have been known to admit that that they are handing an incoming Chief Pilot a 'poisoned chalice'. It has happened to me and it seems that it may have happened at Alligator as well.
It bothers me that CASA approve Chief Pilots with almost indecent haste when they bloody KNOW that said Chief Pilot has no hope of fulfilling that very first part of the relevant CAO 82.xx (whatever-it-is) i.e. 'having complete control of....' blah blah. Until CASA require Chief Pilots to have a budget allocated with signatory powers to spend what it takes to be compliant, we will forever have Alligator situations. Rant over.
Just be sure at any interview that you do 'fess up' and tell the whole story, warts and all. If he doesn't hire you because of this one mistake so early in your career, he is the di!ckhead, not you.
Oh, and despite all you did wrong, bloody good handling to nurse it around the circuit the way you did. Plenty others would have stacked it.
And further - you did not bring Alligator down. They were fcuk'd anyway.
Re the other comments here from/to the outgoing Chief Pilot.
CASA have been known to admit that that they are handing an incoming Chief Pilot a 'poisoned chalice'. It has happened to me and it seems that it may have happened at Alligator as well.
It bothers me that CASA approve Chief Pilots with almost indecent haste when they bloody KNOW that said Chief Pilot has no hope of fulfilling that very first part of the relevant CAO 82.xx (whatever-it-is) i.e. 'having complete control of....' blah blah. Until CASA require Chief Pilots to have a budget allocated with signatory powers to spend what it takes to be compliant, we will forever have Alligator situations. Rant over.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 13th Jun 2012 at 10:51.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: WA
Age: 39
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fascinating read. Sad for all the people that have lost jobs. Ged won't have a clue who I am but flew with him on a 2 hour Nav in a DA20 about 6 years ago. That 2 hours were more valuable than the 40 odd prior to that I'd spent with pimply faced teenagers 'teaching' me how to fly.
I'd also like to say well done to the pilot; your mistakes on the day have been well documented but your willingness to come forward and admit your errors is very encouraging. Good luck, I hope you find work again. As stated, your willingness to step forward and take it on the chin is endearing and hopefully you use this as an opportunity, not a burden, going forward.
Lots of great CRM material here! All the best to everyone involved.
I'd also like to say well done to the pilot; your mistakes on the day have been well documented but your willingness to come forward and admit your errors is very encouraging. Good luck, I hope you find work again. As stated, your willingness to step forward and take it on the chin is endearing and hopefully you use this as an opportunity, not a burden, going forward.
Lots of great CRM material here! All the best to everyone involved.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: on the edge
Posts: 823
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CASA have been known to admit that that they are handing an incoming Chief Pilot a 'poisoned chalice'.
Ethical issues? Sure. But the incoming CP (if he is from outside the organization) can only go on what the Directors or CEO tell him. Usually there is a warm fuzzy feeling at that early stage of the romance. The Operator is often on notice from CASA that they need to clean up their act and getting a new Chief Pilot seems to be everyone's quick solution. Not that they will ever admit this.
Due diligence on the part of the wannabe CP could involve asking around or even trawling Pprune for a "feeling", but short of getting insider info from the Company's financiers, creditors and CASA (which involves yet more ethical problems) there is not much one can do.
My last two gigs I asked to see the Company's most recent CASA audit results. In one case I was fed an old audit from much earlier days, and in the other there were great chunks missing which I only found later.
CASA go through certain motions to 'approve' Chief Pilots but in reality just want a fall guy. Ditto the CEO and Directors - they all want a CP who can paper over the cracks (at no cost, of course) and take the heat if CASA come knocking.
As for training - what training? The Check & Training Manual will be full of high ideals but I have yet to see one fully complied with. Most of these tin-pot outfits grudgingly allow instrument rating and base checks to be done on Company dollars, but only if they are kept to absolutely minimal time. CASA really need to get out more and observe training as it is wrote.
How about it CASA? Pick a candidate and sit in on a full line training programme from day one to final check-to-line. Ensure all those pretty boxes on the form really do get covered before being ticked off.
Then maybe guys would really understand their maintenance reporting responsibilities, systems and performance limitations etc - which brought on this thread in the first place.
Due diligence on the part of the wannabe CP could involve asking around or even trawling Pprune for a "feeling", but short of getting insider info from the Company's financiers, creditors and CASA (which involves yet more ethical problems) there is not much one can do.
My last two gigs I asked to see the Company's most recent CASA audit results. In one case I was fed an old audit from much earlier days, and in the other there were great chunks missing which I only found later.
CASA go through certain motions to 'approve' Chief Pilots but in reality just want a fall guy. Ditto the CEO and Directors - they all want a CP who can paper over the cracks (at no cost, of course) and take the heat if CASA come knocking.
As for training - what training? The Check & Training Manual will be full of high ideals but I have yet to see one fully complied with. Most of these tin-pot outfits grudgingly allow instrument rating and base checks to be done on Company dollars, but only if they are kept to absolutely minimal time. CASA really need to get out more and observe training as it is wrote.
How about it CASA? Pick a candidate and sit in on a full line training programme from day one to final check-to-line. Ensure all those pretty boxes on the form really do get covered before being ticked off.
Then maybe guys would really understand their maintenance reporting responsibilities, systems and performance limitations etc - which brought on this thread in the first place.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 14th Jun 2012 at 02:54.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Perth
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is gold... "learnt more from Ged in 2 hours than I did in 40 with others etc" Was he asleep, he always is when I fly with him, prick won't even do the radios for me!
His head is big enough as it is without this stuff, luckily most of his mates and students can't read otherwise it would be worse...
Just kidding, he's not bad, but please don't put it in writing, he's sitting here reading this stuff with a big silly grin on his face when he's supposed to be cooking us dinner and cleaning my house!!!
His head is big enough as it is without this stuff, luckily most of his mates and students can't read otherwise it would be worse...
Just kidding, he's not bad, but please don't put it in writing, he's sitting here reading this stuff with a big silly grin on his face when he's supposed to be cooking us dinner and cleaning my house!!!
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Perth
Age: 58
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi again everyone, just so you know, I was a CP of 3 companies prior to the Gator for a combined period of at least 11 years (I was in all cases prior, CFI and ATO too) so I knew what I was looking for...
I was CP of Gator for just on 10 months - never asked for the job, a 'particular' CASA FOI fingered me to do it even though we had a qualified applicants CP application in at CASA and that candidate was on-site too.
Pilots said, its so good since Ged took over at the Gator, I don't need to take no-doze any more. (!)
I came out of an airline, knew where CASA will have every GA charter company go, and set the Gator on that road. It is my feeling that CASA had to execute their end game when they did because I was making too many compliance improvements for their liking and I was weakening their 'case'.
They cited incidents and accusations dating back almost 4 years and encompassing at least 3 previous Chief Pilots and strongly accusational towards 'Engineering' under a number of Chief Engineers and LAME's. Difficult to fix all this in 10 months. And there was until very near the end a pervasive culture amongst old 'Gator pilots to cling onto the old ways, because you'll get more hours. Hours was what it was all about in the past...
Bear in mind, CASA has not directly brought the demise of the Gator - Westpac did.
Denys, I too would employ you again. You are mature, efficient, funny and fun. We all have lapses. Thank goodness you or I haven't killed anyone during any of ours. Good luck and, do keep in touch mate. And, to all - safety is YOUR responsibility; never turn your back on it!
In the mean time, any pruners got a job for me?
I was CP of Gator for just on 10 months - never asked for the job, a 'particular' CASA FOI fingered me to do it even though we had a qualified applicants CP application in at CASA and that candidate was on-site too.
Pilots said, its so good since Ged took over at the Gator, I don't need to take no-doze any more. (!)
I came out of an airline, knew where CASA will have every GA charter company go, and set the Gator on that road. It is my feeling that CASA had to execute their end game when they did because I was making too many compliance improvements for their liking and I was weakening their 'case'.
They cited incidents and accusations dating back almost 4 years and encompassing at least 3 previous Chief Pilots and strongly accusational towards 'Engineering' under a number of Chief Engineers and LAME's. Difficult to fix all this in 10 months. And there was until very near the end a pervasive culture amongst old 'Gator pilots to cling onto the old ways, because you'll get more hours. Hours was what it was all about in the past...
Bear in mind, CASA has not directly brought the demise of the Gator - Westpac did.
Denys, I too would employ you again. You are mature, efficient, funny and fun. We all have lapses. Thank goodness you or I haven't killed anyone during any of ours. Good luck and, do keep in touch mate. And, to all - safety is YOUR responsibility; never turn your back on it!
In the mean time, any pruners got a job for me?
Last edited by GedStreet; 15th Jun 2012 at 00:41.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Perth
Age: 58
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And I would like to say a heart felt thank you for all the support. I am deeply moved and thankful that I have been able to help you soar!
I am humbled...
Ah, now it seems, I have to go and finish dinner for RR69. Ho hum, good to be useful! ;-)
(I was never asleep when training RR69... Too scared! Although I did have my eyes closed when I sent him 1st solo! (He's still got the certificate in a frame on his bookshelf. *Note to self - must dust that tomorrow and change prune callsign to 'Cinderella')). ;-)
I am humbled...
Ah, now it seems, I have to go and finish dinner for RR69. Ho hum, good to be useful! ;-)
(I was never asleep when training RR69... Too scared! Although I did have my eyes closed when I sent him 1st solo! (He's still got the certificate in a frame on his bookshelf. *Note to self - must dust that tomorrow and change prune callsign to 'Cinderella')). ;-)
Last edited by GedStreet; 14th Jun 2012 at 23:05.
Seasonally Adjusted
This whole saga reminds me of the old saying...."In aviation, you start out with a full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience. It is essential to fill the bag of experience before emptying the bag of luck!"
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Perth
Age: 58
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, it seems like I'm a bit of a hot potato as judged by Industry. Too hot to handle. Well, you know me, in for a penny, in for a pound!
I have just re-read this whole thread (no job, you see) and had to come to the conclusion, yes Pruners, you are right. CASA does read every word of this! I spent a day being grilled by CASA (after I had said it all in Federal Court anyway) and many of their questions were almost verbatim from here. Yes, few original thinkers in CASA. When they asked me who I had put in charge when I went on holiday oveseas I said I hadn't been overseas in 30 years. And I though to myself, where did that come from? Reading back, yes I was making plans to go o/s but you, CASA kept me too busy. I never got that holiday so I was telling the truth and there was no need for that sideways glance at one another when I said that. I wasn't lying but you must have thought I was!
Pruners too, please be so careful. Many of CASA's questons were based on your speculatons here. Speculation without basis in fact can be very damaging. CASA take it as Gospel and I have been able to tell you contrary facts behind some of your specualtions. Please, I'll ask again, be careful. Lives and livelihoods are at stake based on what you write here. Making an accusation - ok, but be SURE that accusation is based in fact.
At the end of the CASA interview I was asked, "Is there anything you wold like to say to CASA?" I said "Yes, I am very dissapointed in my dealings with CASA and I am particularly dissapointed in you, Mr {_}|€¥. when I heard you were involved in our case, I thought great, I can work with you but I am saddened to say that I feel you stonewalled and stood in the way of my attempts to achieve real safety outcomes at Alligator". I noticed, they didn't write that bit down... Maybe they'll be able to read it now.
So, any brave souls out there willing to offer me a job - I can send you my resume. Drop me a line at [email protected]
If you check 'whois' you will see I have owned the domain name nextchairmanofcasa.com for some time - If Dick Smith can do it (he and I locked horns then) anyone can. Maybe I'd better get some steam under that idea. CASA could sure do with a shake up and some transprency and accountability for their actions.
In the mean time RR69's house is looking pretty good and dinner was wonderful! We're having a few beers tonight, all (locals) welcome! Email me if you don't have RR69's address.
Thought du jour: Aviation is a marathon, not a sprint.
I have just re-read this whole thread (no job, you see) and had to come to the conclusion, yes Pruners, you are right. CASA does read every word of this! I spent a day being grilled by CASA (after I had said it all in Federal Court anyway) and many of their questions were almost verbatim from here. Yes, few original thinkers in CASA. When they asked me who I had put in charge when I went on holiday oveseas I said I hadn't been overseas in 30 years. And I though to myself, where did that come from? Reading back, yes I was making plans to go o/s but you, CASA kept me too busy. I never got that holiday so I was telling the truth and there was no need for that sideways glance at one another when I said that. I wasn't lying but you must have thought I was!
Pruners too, please be so careful. Many of CASA's questons were based on your speculatons here. Speculation without basis in fact can be very damaging. CASA take it as Gospel and I have been able to tell you contrary facts behind some of your specualtions. Please, I'll ask again, be careful. Lives and livelihoods are at stake based on what you write here. Making an accusation - ok, but be SURE that accusation is based in fact.
At the end of the CASA interview I was asked, "Is there anything you wold like to say to CASA?" I said "Yes, I am very dissapointed in my dealings with CASA and I am particularly dissapointed in you, Mr {_}|€¥. when I heard you were involved in our case, I thought great, I can work with you but I am saddened to say that I feel you stonewalled and stood in the way of my attempts to achieve real safety outcomes at Alligator". I noticed, they didn't write that bit down... Maybe they'll be able to read it now.
So, any brave souls out there willing to offer me a job - I can send you my resume. Drop me a line at [email protected]
If you check 'whois' you will see I have owned the domain name nextchairmanofcasa.com for some time - If Dick Smith can do it (he and I locked horns then) anyone can. Maybe I'd better get some steam under that idea. CASA could sure do with a shake up and some transprency and accountability for their actions.
In the mean time RR69's house is looking pretty good and dinner was wonderful! We're having a few beers tonight, all (locals) welcome! Email me if you don't have RR69's address.
Thought du jour: Aviation is a marathon, not a sprint.
Last edited by GedStreet; 15th Jun 2012 at 05:06.
