Merged: Airtex/Skymaster AOC suspended
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Les N.
Well . . you got it half right! Dieter certainly didn't deserve all this, as for SD - when you play "cute" within the "knowledge is power" scenario, I guess you could say that the results speak for themselves. Karma will prevail.
P.S. Rumour has it that this info is first hand, not hearesay!
P.S. Rumour has it that this info is first hand, not hearesay!
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I wonder, in my quiet way - why is it so?.
We have the snipers 'in the back of the crew bus' (slightly smug for being there) or people hiding behind 'Dirinbandi' locations (sod the spell checker) or some such ridiculously far fetched part of the planet, happy to deride, delight in criticism and run down an industry which, despite all the inherent, inflicted and regulatory problems, survives.
Almost everyone here had a start in GA, some had a charmed run, some fell at the first fence. But every pilot reading this (bar a few) has held their breath over a 'rough engine', gripped the seat with their buttocks during a close call for fuel or dragged a pig through a fence on a hot day calling loud and long, to whatever Gods they believe in, the pilots eternal prayer .
"Just let me get this one home and I'll never infringe a regulation again". The second line is
" Please help me survive my first 500 hours multi, and I will live in 'Dirinbandi' for ever, always humbly ride in the back of the bus (crew only) and never stuff up like this again so help me".
This newly discovered piety always lasts until slightly after the second beer.
GA runs on enthusiasm, adrenalin and precious little else. The guys at Airtex are no worse and probably better than a lot of operators. It is grossly unfair to criticise young Andy Wilson, a three legged dog, or a two legged bar stool without you knowing the story. ALL the story, warts and all.
It is quite a story. Wait for the evidence and the judgements. It will be worth it.
To those who allow the 'authority' to rule their every waking minute remember the bit in the book about throwing the first stone (it is Sunday after all).
Tailwinds – Lilum (inter spinas).
Almost everyone here had a start in GA, some had a charmed run, some fell at the first fence. But every pilot reading this (bar a few) has held their breath over a 'rough engine', gripped the seat with their buttocks during a close call for fuel or dragged a pig through a fence on a hot day calling loud and long, to whatever Gods they believe in, the pilots eternal prayer .
"Just let me get this one home and I'll never infringe a regulation again". The second line is
" Please help me survive my first 500 hours multi, and I will live in 'Dirinbandi' for ever, always humbly ride in the back of the bus (crew only) and never stuff up like this again so help me".
This newly discovered piety always lasts until slightly after the second beer.
GA runs on enthusiasm, adrenalin and precious little else. The guys at Airtex are no worse and probably better than a lot of operators. It is grossly unfair to criticise young Andy Wilson, a three legged dog, or a two legged bar stool without you knowing the story. ALL the story, warts and all.
It is quite a story. Wait for the evidence and the judgements. It will be worth it.
To those who allow the 'authority' to rule their every waking minute remember the bit in the book about throwing the first stone (it is Sunday after all).
Tailwinds – Lilum (inter spinas).
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The guys at Airtex are no worse and probably better than a lot of operators.
DS has his ways about him, but I always found him to be a straight shooter and IMHO, is undeserving of this.
Tiger19, you should have your own pyschic style TV show, seeing as how you can reach out across cyber space and make sweeping statements that make claims about my experiences.
RATsoreA, if you tried to bring an accident waiting to happen 10 years ago mate to the attention of CASA, you would known what balls it took to risk ending your own career so you could sleep at night with a clear conscience.
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CASA
I agree with much of what has been said here, most importantly being CASA's selective and often unfounded targeting of operators and individuals, some based on personal grudges and several FOI's desire to have the last word. Not for a second am I saying Airtex don't have issues, however look at the way CASA have done this again, the friday late arvo shut down.
There are a stack of dodgy operators around, that get away with what they do because they can. Then there are others that are so closely monitored, any glitch (even if outside everyone's control) and they feel the wrath of an angry bunch of little men. Troppos were a good example. Again, not to say they didn't have some issues along the way, but they were undoubtedly the best operator up there, and the only one to be shut down.
If you ask ANYONE in Australian Aviation what they think of CASA, you will always, 100% of the time get a negative response. Why is this continuing on like this then? Why the hell don't we do something about it??
There are a lot of incredibly intelligent, informed and experienced individuals here on pprune, surely there are enough people to get together and get some action going.
We live in a society where we decide who controls what we do. Why do we all complain about these people and do nothing about it?? Unless proven otherwise, I believe we all feel the same about this, so why are we sitting around letting these people continue doing what they do? Where and how do we start??
I'm sure there are people on here who consider this a very naive and uninformed post, however the simple fact is that everyone in aviation here in Australia who is governed by these people all feel the same. So why can't we start to make a change?
There are a stack of dodgy operators around, that get away with what they do because they can. Then there are others that are so closely monitored, any glitch (even if outside everyone's control) and they feel the wrath of an angry bunch of little men. Troppos were a good example. Again, not to say they didn't have some issues along the way, but they were undoubtedly the best operator up there, and the only one to be shut down.
If you ask ANYONE in Australian Aviation what they think of CASA, you will always, 100% of the time get a negative response. Why is this continuing on like this then? Why the hell don't we do something about it??
There are a lot of incredibly intelligent, informed and experienced individuals here on pprune, surely there are enough people to get together and get some action going.
We live in a society where we decide who controls what we do. Why do we all complain about these people and do nothing about it?? Unless proven otherwise, I believe we all feel the same about this, so why are we sitting around letting these people continue doing what they do? Where and how do we start??
I'm sure there are people on here who consider this a very naive and uninformed post, however the simple fact is that everyone in aviation here in Australia who is governed by these people all feel the same. So why can't we start to make a change?
Les,
The following comments apply to the Avtex/Airtex Metro operation only, and the changes required by CASA after the freighter loss about two years ago.
Over a period of 18 months, a new CP and a boss of training ( with long term serious airline training/standards and management experience) were put in place.All the pilots were retrained, two pilot crews for pax ops. (demanded by CASA) became the order of the day.
All the manuals and the CAR 217 procedures were completely revamped, not only to include two pilot SOPs, but a complete overhaul, and all the changes were progressively negotiated with the then CASA YSBK management, and new AOCs were issued, with restrictions progressively removed, as changes went into place. So, at least twice in that period, presumably "--- and CASA is satisfied".
As far as I know, the SMS put in place (before they became mandatory) was the first fair dinkum SMS in a small GA organization. Check out the airline exemptions.
In the 18 months up to last February, there were several CASA audits, and several ACS ( the ICAO/IATA IOSA audit team from Melbourne) independent audits, all probably with a few comments, as there always are, but apparently no show stoppers. The ACS team is internationally recognized by ICAO and IATA, with a long list of very high profile clients, including not just international airlines, but national aviation authorities. One might reasonably say ACS auditors are far more highly qualified and widely experience than all but a few of CASA's inspectors. An ACS audit of CASA would be an interesting exercise.
Then, earlier this year, the CASA management changed at YSBK, and as they say in the movies: "The rest is history".
As I hear it, just about every operator at Bankstown, and most of the local ATOs are all in CASA YSBK sights.
Tootle pip!!
The following comments apply to the Avtex/Airtex Metro operation only, and the changes required by CASA after the freighter loss about two years ago.
Over a period of 18 months, a new CP and a boss of training ( with long term serious airline training/standards and management experience) were put in place.All the pilots were retrained, two pilot crews for pax ops. (demanded by CASA) became the order of the day.
All the manuals and the CAR 217 procedures were completely revamped, not only to include two pilot SOPs, but a complete overhaul, and all the changes were progressively negotiated with the then CASA YSBK management, and new AOCs were issued, with restrictions progressively removed, as changes went into place. So, at least twice in that period, presumably "--- and CASA is satisfied".
As far as I know, the SMS put in place (before they became mandatory) was the first fair dinkum SMS in a small GA organization. Check out the airline exemptions.
In the 18 months up to last February, there were several CASA audits, and several ACS ( the ICAO/IATA IOSA audit team from Melbourne) independent audits, all probably with a few comments, as there always are, but apparently no show stoppers. The ACS team is internationally recognized by ICAO and IATA, with a long list of very high profile clients, including not just international airlines, but national aviation authorities. One might reasonably say ACS auditors are far more highly qualified and widely experience than all but a few of CASA's inspectors. An ACS audit of CASA would be an interesting exercise.
Then, earlier this year, the CASA management changed at YSBK, and as they say in the movies: "The rest is history".
As I hear it, just about every operator at Bankstown, and most of the local ATOs are all in CASA YSBK sights.
Tootle pip!!
Last edited by LeadSled; 26th Jul 2010 at 06:29.
Leadsled is correct in what he says.
This has all the appearance of "notches on the belt" to enhance someones career.
If CASA is so determined to "do the job" and be the tough regulator then perhaps they should also look at the Qantas maintenance?
But there again, this would only be a fairy tale as Qantas is in the national interest - read political clout.
This is far from over and the driving force defending it has the will, means and determination to win.
As the chinese say "may you live in interesting times.
This has all the appearance of "notches on the belt" to enhance someones career.
If CASA is so determined to "do the job" and be the tough regulator then perhaps they should also look at the Qantas maintenance?
But there again, this would only be a fairy tale as Qantas is in the national interest - read political clout.
This is far from over and the driving force defending it has the will, means and determination to win.
As the chinese say "may you live in interesting times.
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Any truth to a rumour that this operator had a big win against CASA and in particular an FOI that was hell bent on stopping the turbine side of this operation. From memory, it was over 10 years ago and a LARGE sum of money was handed over by CASA??????? Again, this is a rumour network, so please shoot me down in flames if i'm wrong!!!!!!!! But if it is true, remember, the big old elephant never forgets.
A young Aviator was being ramp checked by a CASA FOI.
As the FOI walked to the door of his Cessna, flipping open his ticket
book, the young aviator said, 'I bet you are going to sell me tickets to the CASA Flight Operations Inspectors Ball.'
He replied, 'CASA Flight Operation inspectors don't have balls.'
There was a moment of silence while the young aviator smiled, and the FOI realized what he'd just said.
He then closed his book, got back in his vehicle and left.
The young aviator was laughing too hard to start the aeroplane.
As the FOI walked to the door of his Cessna, flipping open his ticket
book, the young aviator said, 'I bet you are going to sell me tickets to the CASA Flight Operations Inspectors Ball.'
He replied, 'CASA Flight Operation inspectors don't have balls.'
There was a moment of silence while the young aviator smiled, and the FOI realized what he'd just said.
He then closed his book, got back in his vehicle and left.
The young aviator was laughing too hard to start the aeroplane.
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Wrong, "I fear we have woken the sleeping dragon".
The CASA has no fear of any opposition, sleeping or not!. Guess what, the dragon is us.
The CASA anti dragon measures are a pitiful, wretched, hidebound, moribund culture which seeks to create fear by perverting flawed laws, to suit it's own sad egocentric ambitions.
It is up to the industry to stop the CASA.
Say (or shout) –'enough'. People power changes communist dictatorships. What chance have this CASA bunch against any 6 pack of determined Chief Pilots in the land.
Six good men and true could get rid of this bunch screeching pretenders. Easier than breaking wind. Just explain to the Senate that you, not the CASA bunch, are the legally qualified, everyday managers of real safety in this industry. You may also explain that bullies, screaming skulls, jack o' lanterns, the thing under the bed and Voldemort are always beaten by truth (or a cricket bat). Individual choice there children.
Look at any CASA document; grammar, punctuation, spelling and the use of the English language (as opposed to KGB translation) is not only piss poor, but would hardly qualify as acceptable under the least picky FOI' s idea of 'how it should be writ'. There is always a 'spello' or two, ask anyone who writes or, has ever written a manual. Do not the local FOI. Dollar says they are barely capable of reading it, let alone comprehending changed ideas or the legal/operational complexities of writing the blessed thing.
Remember; CASA/L3. "If not previously approved, knock it back". (Rule three of the CASA approved post lobotomy treatment).
For example, who the hell wrote CAO 40.1, (or part 5) bet you a 6 pack, the native tongue is not English.
Enough frivolity. Get real about changing the culture of fear.
What are you waiting for guys?. The manslaughter charge?.
The CASA anti dragon measures are a pitiful, wretched, hidebound, moribund culture which seeks to create fear by perverting flawed laws, to suit it's own sad egocentric ambitions.
It is up to the industry to stop the CASA.
Say (or shout) –'enough'. People power changes communist dictatorships. What chance have this CASA bunch against any 6 pack of determined Chief Pilots in the land.
Six good men and true could get rid of this bunch screeching pretenders. Easier than breaking wind. Just explain to the Senate that you, not the CASA bunch, are the legally qualified, everyday managers of real safety in this industry. You may also explain that bullies, screaming skulls, jack o' lanterns, the thing under the bed and Voldemort are always beaten by truth (or a cricket bat). Individual choice there children.
Look at any CASA document; grammar, punctuation, spelling and the use of the English language (as opposed to KGB translation) is not only piss poor, but would hardly qualify as acceptable under the least picky FOI' s idea of 'how it should be writ'. There is always a 'spello' or two, ask anyone who writes or, has ever written a manual. Do not the local FOI. Dollar says they are barely capable of reading it, let alone comprehending changed ideas or the legal/operational complexities of writing the blessed thing.
Remember; CASA/L3. "If not previously approved, knock it back". (Rule three of the CASA approved post lobotomy treatment).
For example, who the hell wrote CAO 40.1, (or part 5) bet you a 6 pack, the native tongue is not English.
Enough frivolity. Get real about changing the culture of fear.
What are you waiting for guys?. The manslaughter charge?.
Just remember old age and treachery beat youth and initiative every time.
When you complain to the Minister, remember that your letter goes down through the management chain all the way to the very person you are complaining about. It is that person who then writes the Ministers letter back to you.
That person also has your file on his desk when he does it, and every piece of correspondence your organisation has ever written to CASA is in it, and its all registered and neatly indexed at his fingertips.
Now along with the letter this joker writes for the Minister to sign, he writes a Ministerial brief, no more than Two pages long at the very maximum. The Ministerial brief explains what the bureaucracy has done to investigate the matter you raised, a recommendation about the resolution of the matter, maybe a point of explanation if necessary, perhaps to explain some terminology or construction in the letter, and finally a recommendation that the Minister sign the attached letter.
Assuming your bosses, who all have to read and approve your brief are happy, and the Ministerial adviser is happy it ain't going to cost votes, the Minister is handed the brief and the letter and signs it as well as initialing the brief, which is then returned to you so you can take copies and post the damn thing.
I am telling you this because unless you are absolutely rock solid in your facts, and can prove misdeeds comprehensively, you are going to be hung drawn and quartered very quickly by the very person you are complaining about, and it will be done in the full light of day, watched by senior bureaucrats and the Minister, and there is not a damn thing you can do to stop it once you have mailed your complaining letter.
You have engaged in a dual with a Public servant. His only resource in the public service is his reputation and personal file. If you succeed in besmirching his escutcheon, his career is finished. He will fight you to the death and he has all the resources of the Department behind him.
That is the meaning of the constant use of the word advice by Government Ministers. They always act on advice from a public servant unless they are, to use "Yes Ministers" Sir Humphrey Appelby word "courageous" meaning stupid.
You would need an overwhelming display of industry solidarity to get anywhere with CASA otherwise you will simply be fobbed off as "Several disgruntled Individuals" and dealt with piecemeal in private. Furthermore, your concerns should be couched in terms of helping CASA and the industry improve safety and efficiency, not just carping about one of many administrative decisions that need to be made by CASA every day that wasn't to your liking.
......and finally, I've been a victim of the Friday 4.30 pm letter/fax (in commercial matters, not with CASA or Government). It is a puerile legal insult, since it is extremely unpleasant having to drop everything at that hour and try and find a lawyer and a judge who will give you an immediate injunction.
I would have thought better of CASA.
When you complain to the Minister, remember that your letter goes down through the management chain all the way to the very person you are complaining about. It is that person who then writes the Ministers letter back to you.
That person also has your file on his desk when he does it, and every piece of correspondence your organisation has ever written to CASA is in it, and its all registered and neatly indexed at his fingertips.
Now along with the letter this joker writes for the Minister to sign, he writes a Ministerial brief, no more than Two pages long at the very maximum. The Ministerial brief explains what the bureaucracy has done to investigate the matter you raised, a recommendation about the resolution of the matter, maybe a point of explanation if necessary, perhaps to explain some terminology or construction in the letter, and finally a recommendation that the Minister sign the attached letter.
Assuming your bosses, who all have to read and approve your brief are happy, and the Ministerial adviser is happy it ain't going to cost votes, the Minister is handed the brief and the letter and signs it as well as initialing the brief, which is then returned to you so you can take copies and post the damn thing.
I am telling you this because unless you are absolutely rock solid in your facts, and can prove misdeeds comprehensively, you are going to be hung drawn and quartered very quickly by the very person you are complaining about, and it will be done in the full light of day, watched by senior bureaucrats and the Minister, and there is not a damn thing you can do to stop it once you have mailed your complaining letter.
You have engaged in a dual with a Public servant. His only resource in the public service is his reputation and personal file. If you succeed in besmirching his escutcheon, his career is finished. He will fight you to the death and he has all the resources of the Department behind him.
That is the meaning of the constant use of the word advice by Government Ministers. They always act on advice from a public servant unless they are, to use "Yes Ministers" Sir Humphrey Appelby word "courageous" meaning stupid.
You would need an overwhelming display of industry solidarity to get anywhere with CASA otherwise you will simply be fobbed off as "Several disgruntled Individuals" and dealt with piecemeal in private. Furthermore, your concerns should be couched in terms of helping CASA and the industry improve safety and efficiency, not just carping about one of many administrative decisions that need to be made by CASA every day that wasn't to your liking.
......and finally, I've been a victim of the Friday 4.30 pm letter/fax (in commercial matters, not with CASA or Government). It is a puerile legal insult, since it is extremely unpleasant having to drop everything at that hour and try and find a lawyer and a judge who will give you an immediate injunction.
I would have thought better of CASA.
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Do as I say, not as I do !!!
Lead Sled, you are right on the money when you mention an audit on CASA. Some years ago (not too many) I did a Safety/Lead Auditor course. That particular course was held in Brisbane, and the practical part of the course was done live on Virgin Airlines at YBBN.
The course instructor commented, in detail, about previous courses, which, for their practical component, had completed (or had attempted to complete) on CASA (at CASA's invitation).
Every component of the Audit on CASA failed, with multiple RCA's (requests for corrective action) issued for every element of the Audit.
CASA declined to discuss the results of the Audit, and CASA subsequently forbade the Auditing of themselves by an independant auditor.
On the matter of a revised 217 manual, demanded of Airtex by CASA, it would seem that the legal imperative of IPSO FACTO has been ignored. It would seem inconceivable that having accepted a new manual, and re-issuing the AOC on the basis of that new manual, that CASA would then proceed on what could best be described as a witch hunt, using the old 217 manual (or parts from that manual that best suit CASA's purposes) to persecute Airtex.
Or does it suit CASA to mix both Airtex's old and new 217 manuals to produce a bending machine that will allow CASA to massage facts into any shape that might suit their needs.
Reliable rumour has it that both Dubious and Worthless conclusions have been arrived at using the aforementioned tactics.
One would suspect that the matter is being mentioned in legal Chambers.
The course instructor commented, in detail, about previous courses, which, for their practical component, had completed (or had attempted to complete) on CASA (at CASA's invitation).
Every component of the Audit on CASA failed, with multiple RCA's (requests for corrective action) issued for every element of the Audit.
CASA declined to discuss the results of the Audit, and CASA subsequently forbade the Auditing of themselves by an independant auditor.
On the matter of a revised 217 manual, demanded of Airtex by CASA, it would seem that the legal imperative of IPSO FACTO has been ignored. It would seem inconceivable that having accepted a new manual, and re-issuing the AOC on the basis of that new manual, that CASA would then proceed on what could best be described as a witch hunt, using the old 217 manual (or parts from that manual that best suit CASA's purposes) to persecute Airtex.
Or does it suit CASA to mix both Airtex's old and new 217 manuals to produce a bending machine that will allow CASA to massage facts into any shape that might suit their needs.
Reliable rumour has it that both Dubious and Worthless conclusions have been arrived at using the aforementioned tactics.
One would suspect that the matter is being mentioned in legal Chambers.
Last edited by kimwestt; 26th Jul 2010 at 23:29. Reason: editorial
While all this has nothing to do with me, is the CASA gentleman who was involved in some on going West Australian airline alleged persecution legal matter (Polar Air?) involved in this matter? I think I understood that he was promoted into some East Coast management position. Name escapes me.
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Provided that CASA have hard evidence to shut this business down, maybe they should start shutting down a few more?
One operator that way, had 2 major prangs in as many months, but CASA are not knocking on their door?? 2 Dead and one pilot has lost an eye
Word going around is "if you fly that much, something is bound to happen eventually", and with that mentality GA in Australia takes yet another step backwards...so much for "moving forward"....
I personally think that the owner of an aviation business (one with the financial interest in the company) should not be allowed to fix or fly that companies aircraft...
CMN
One operator that way, had 2 major prangs in as many months, but CASA are not knocking on their door?? 2 Dead and one pilot has lost an eye
Word going around is "if you fly that much, something is bound to happen eventually", and with that mentality GA in Australia takes yet another step backwards...so much for "moving forward"....
I personally think that the owner of an aviation business (one with the financial interest in the company) should not be allowed to fix or fly that companies aircraft...
CMN
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When you complain to the Minister, remember that your letter goes down through the management chain all the way to the very person you are complaining about. It is that person who then writes the Ministers letter back to you.
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Originally Posted by Rose Thorns
The CASA has no fear of any opposition, sleeping or not!. Guess what, the dragon is us.
The CASA anti dragon measures are a pitiful, wretched, hidebound, moribund culture which seeks to create fear by perverting flawed laws, to suit it's own sad egocentric ambitions.
The CASA anti dragon measures are a pitiful, wretched, hidebound, moribund culture which seeks to create fear by perverting flawed laws, to suit it's own sad egocentric ambitions.
BRAVO Rose Thorns!
A superlative piece of prose -and an accurate summation of "the world as we know it". Well written!
Sunfish,
Don't know about WA, but at least one individual CASA employee involved in this imbroglio has apparently an interesting history in Darwin, before he departed for cooler climes, or was it to cool down.
Tootle pip!!
Don't know about WA, but at least one individual CASA employee involved in this imbroglio has apparently an interesting history in Darwin, before he departed for cooler climes, or was it to cool down.
Tootle pip!!