Merged: Airtex/Skymaster AOC suspended
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Read the entire 142 pages on:
The link you posted was to the AAT's decision on an interlocutory matter. Avtex made an application that the Chairman of the AAT hearing disqualify himself from hearing the appeal because he had refused their application for a stay of suspension of their AOC.
However, the basic facts on which CASA acted are in the decision and in particular, 3 specific crashes: the Metro off Sydney, the wheels-up of the PA31 out of Marree and the Canley Vale crash.
The final decision will make interesting reading. However, I am tipping that CASA will get up on this. This is based on nothing more than the final decision (pending any appeals) has been a long time coming after the hearing.
If the decision was going to be in favour of Avtex then normally you would get a much quicker decision with published reasons coming later. The AAT is aware of the commercial consequences of its decisions so if the AOC was to be restored they would make it sooner than later.
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ref para 96 to 101, the 26 pilots that were given PA-31 endorsements, technically, were they ever endorsed??If CASA decided to cancel their endorsements, would the 1000 plus hours some of these blokes have logged and their ATPL be void??? I know of a couple of these blokes(from the 26) and they have moved onto bigger and better things using their PA-31 time. This could throw a spanner in the works if their endorsement was not legal.
Last edited by tiger19; 7th Feb 2011 at 02:22.
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tiger19 - my reading was that CASA just sought to ensure they got remedial training to validate the endorsement, it doesn't seem to imply they wanted to revoke the endorsements. It would seem a bit heavy handed to make 1000 hours of experience disappear because the initial training was done improperly when all that was required was some additional training.
Also, on reading that proceedings document I concur with Sunfish. If nothing else the way the CEO was trying to slight of hand responsibilities and switch between legal entities as a defence was appalling, and the complete lack of action on the issues identified just underscores the culture he was applying.
Also, on reading that proceedings document I concur with Sunfish. If nothing else the way the CEO was trying to slight of hand responsibilities and switch between legal entities as a defence was appalling, and the complete lack of action on the issues identified just underscores the culture he was applying.
What a damning indication of the state of aviation in this country.
I love what was said about the fatigue systems.
No better example of the inmates running the asylum. Does anyone really think CASA will take any notice, or just wait for the next spate of accidents.
I love what was said about the fatigue systems.
No better example of the inmates running the asylum. Does anyone really think CASA will take any notice, or just wait for the next spate of accidents.
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Oz Biggles CASA did take notice! CASA are damned if they do and Damned if they dont. Did you even read the report fool?
There are people in CASA far smarter than you and I who have done far bigger things in aviation than you can ever dream of.
The Director is no fool! He has good people working for the core value of SAFE SKIES FOR ALL.
There are people in CASA far smarter than you and I who have done far bigger things in aviation than you can ever dream of.
The Director is no fool! He has good people working for the core value of SAFE SKIES FOR ALL.
Yet, ask the same instructors to cut the mixture of a single engine aircraft after take off at 500 feet to test the students judgement on selection of a suitable forced landing area straight ahead and the answer would be "you must be bloody joking"
When asked why the shocked response the instructor would doubtless say because the engine might not restart when the mixture is reset to Rich.
and some pitiful form of combustion to be going on in each and every cylinder. The fire can then hopefully restored by the traverse of a butterfly valve through about Eighty degrees of rotation.
IMHO people are "afraid" of the mixture in the same way they are "afraid" of turning the master switch off in flight - because they don't understand the system.
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Is anybody now wondering why the Avtex/Skymaster AOC's were pulled?
Are we going to get anymore of those flowery, latin type posts defending them?
Will the former AOC holders be 'allowed' to create a new entity with new company directors at 'arms length' from the previous directors?
And best of all will State Governments continue to award tenders for medical transport to the lowest tenderer? Have a look at what happened in Victoria and tell me that Governments (politicians and public servants) aren't complicit in what happened at Canley Vale.
It's all on record now and will be proven by a good QC or two. Pity it takes smoking holes (multiple) in the ground to prove these things
It's now very clear as to what happens when you put garbage into parliament. It starts there.
Are we going to get anymore of those flowery, latin type posts defending them?
Will the former AOC holders be 'allowed' to create a new entity with new company directors at 'arms length' from the previous directors?
And best of all will State Governments continue to award tenders for medical transport to the lowest tenderer? Have a look at what happened in Victoria and tell me that Governments (politicians and public servants) aren't complicit in what happened at Canley Vale.
It's all on record now and will be proven by a good QC or two. Pity it takes smoking holes (multiple) in the ground to prove these things
It's now very clear as to what happens when you put garbage into parliament. It starts there.
will State Governments continue to award tenders for medical transport to the lowest tenderer?
. There should be some very serious questioning going on in NSW Health about this.
Dirty
I agree there are people out there much smarter than me and who have done more, on that we agree.
I'm more on the side of do, not don't do.
Would you say CASA have covered themselves in glory in regard to this case? The Lockhart river case? and a few more that I can bring up? This wasn't an overnight activity, this went on for ages. It took TWO fatal crashes for the AOC to be pulled.
Do you think letting companies run their own fatigue systems works?
I feel sorry for the companies that have to compete playing by the rules while others bend/break/crash the rules.
I agree there are people out there much smarter than me and who have done more, on that we agree.
I'm more on the side of do, not don't do.
Would you say CASA have covered themselves in glory in regard to this case? The Lockhart river case? and a few more that I can bring up? This wasn't an overnight activity, this went on for ages. It took TWO fatal crashes for the AOC to be pulled.
Do you think letting companies run their own fatigue systems works?
I feel sorry for the companies that have to compete playing by the rules while others bend/break/crash the rules.
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Was the name of the airline who's name was painted on the side of the Metro, who's tickets bore the same name, and were issued by the same company, relieved of it's AOC because of LHR?
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Gee Frank.....its always been a David and Goliath act with CASA. You will need a mighty big rock or they know you'll run outta stones eventually.
A very wise old aviator once told me, a young crusader "you'll never beat the system". Took a long time to realise.
A very wise old aviator once told me, a young crusader "you'll never beat the system". Took a long time to realise.
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Just a point of clarification please.
Is it AIRtex or AVtex? The formal AAT ruling refers to a company called Avtex yet many posters are referring to the company as Airtex.
Same thing is happening on other PPrune threads.
Is it AIRtex or AVtex? The formal AAT ruling refers to a company called Avtex yet many posters are referring to the company as Airtex.
Same thing is happening on other PPrune threads.
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AOC's and "borrowing"
Civil Aviation Order 82.0
3 Conditions relating to “borrowed” certificates
3.1 Each certificate authorising charter or regular public transport operations is subject to the condition that its holder (“the AOC holder”) must not, without the prior written approval of CASA, enter into an arrangement with a person whose certificate is suspended or cancelled (“the other person”) under which the AOC holder agrees:
(a) to use, in any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any aircraft that the other person was authorised to operate under the certificate that is suspended or cancelled; or
(b) to use, in connection with any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any person employed or engaged by, or otherwise working for, the other person in connection with any operation covered by the certificate that is suspended or cancelled; or
(c) to conduct any operation, or any part of an operation, that the other person intended to conduct under the certificate that is suspended or cancelled.
3.2 Each certificate authorising charter or regular public transport operations is subject to the condition that its holder (“the AOC holder”) must not, without the prior written approval of CASA, enter into an arrangement with a person whose certificate has been varied (“the other person”), under which the AOC holder agrees:
(a) to use, in any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any aircraft that the other person:
(i) was, immediately before the variation, authorised to operate under the other person’s certificate; but
(ii) is no longer authorised to operate under the certificate as varied; or
(b) to use, in connection with any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any person employed or engaged by, or otherwise working for, the other person in connection with any operation that the other person:
(i) was, immediately before the variation, authorised to conduct under the other person’s certificate; but
(ii) is no longer authorised to conduct under the certificate as varied; or
(c) to conduct any operation, or any part of an operation that the other person:
(i) intended to conduct under the other person’s certificate as it had effect immediately before the variation; but (ii) is no longer authorised to conduct under the certificate as varied.
3.3 Each certificate authorising charter or regular public transport operations is subject to the condition that its holder (“the AOC holder”) must not, without the prior written approval of CASA, enter into an arrangement with a person whose application for a certificate is still pending (“the other person”) under which the AOC holder agrees:
(a) to use, in any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any aircraft proposed to be covered by the certificate sought; or
(b) to use, in connection with any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any person proposed to be employed or engaged by the other person in connection with any operation proposed to be covered by the certificate sought; or
(c) to conduct any operation, or any part of an operation, proposed to be covered by the certificate sought.
3 Conditions relating to “borrowed” certificates
3.1 Each certificate authorising charter or regular public transport operations is subject to the condition that its holder (“the AOC holder”) must not, without the prior written approval of CASA, enter into an arrangement with a person whose certificate is suspended or cancelled (“the other person”) under which the AOC holder agrees:
(a) to use, in any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any aircraft that the other person was authorised to operate under the certificate that is suspended or cancelled; or
(b) to use, in connection with any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any person employed or engaged by, or otherwise working for, the other person in connection with any operation covered by the certificate that is suspended or cancelled; or
(c) to conduct any operation, or any part of an operation, that the other person intended to conduct under the certificate that is suspended or cancelled.
3.2 Each certificate authorising charter or regular public transport operations is subject to the condition that its holder (“the AOC holder”) must not, without the prior written approval of CASA, enter into an arrangement with a person whose certificate has been varied (“the other person”), under which the AOC holder agrees:
(a) to use, in any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any aircraft that the other person:
(i) was, immediately before the variation, authorised to operate under the other person’s certificate; but
(ii) is no longer authorised to operate under the certificate as varied; or
(b) to use, in connection with any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any person employed or engaged by, or otherwise working for, the other person in connection with any operation that the other person:
(i) was, immediately before the variation, authorised to conduct under the other person’s certificate; but
(ii) is no longer authorised to conduct under the certificate as varied; or
(c) to conduct any operation, or any part of an operation that the other person:
(i) intended to conduct under the other person’s certificate as it had effect immediately before the variation; but (ii) is no longer authorised to conduct under the certificate as varied.
3.3 Each certificate authorising charter or regular public transport operations is subject to the condition that its holder (“the AOC holder”) must not, without the prior written approval of CASA, enter into an arrangement with a person whose application for a certificate is still pending (“the other person”) under which the AOC holder agrees:
(a) to use, in any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any aircraft proposed to be covered by the certificate sought; or
(b) to use, in connection with any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any person proposed to be employed or engaged by the other person in connection with any operation proposed to be covered by the certificate sought; or
(c) to conduct any operation, or any part of an operation, proposed to be covered by the certificate sought.