Merged: Airtex/Skymaster AOC suspended
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Sold
Latest rumour is that the organisation has been sold....or parts thereof.
Interesting if thats the case.....guess there are some muppets out there!!!!
Anybody like to confirmor deny??!!
Interesting if thats the case.....guess there are some muppets out there!!!!
Anybody like to confirmor deny??!!
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up into the air
Yeah - the regs are sort of clear - but not really- depends again maybe on which FOI you might speak to, and from what region said FOI belongs to.
Consider the argument that an operator has had their AOC cancelled, and is not in all likelihood going to renew that AOC, does not that operator then become another plain old garden variety company?
What restriction, then, on that company engaging in plain old garden variety commercial activity, ie brokerage?
We've got the work, you operate Charter, lets do some business.
Likewise a Travel Agent selling individual tickets on a charter flight, and then chartering a Charter operator for the flight?
Consider the argument that an operator has had their AOC cancelled, and is not in all likelihood going to renew that AOC, does not that operator then become another plain old garden variety company?
What restriction, then, on that company engaging in plain old garden variety commercial activity, ie brokerage?
We've got the work, you operate Charter, lets do some business.
Likewise a Travel Agent selling individual tickets on a charter flight, and then chartering a Charter operator for the flight?
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AOC's and "borrowing"
I agree that FOI's give different answers, but the regs. are clear and "interpretation" must be avoided. It is the "local interpretation" that often is the issue. I have for example an opinion from CASA legal branch, which a local FOI does not agree with as he thinks the reg can be applied in quite a different way.
The catch all is CAR 210 and CAR 206 [Commercial ops]
Just for clarity, CAR 210 says:
CAR 210 Restriction of advertising of commercial operations
(1) A person must not give a public notice, by newspaper advertisement, broadcast statement or any other means of public announcement, to the effect that a person is willing to undertake by use of an Australian aircraft any commercial operations if the last-mentioned person has not obtained an Air Operator’s Certificate authorising the conduct of those operations.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(2) An offence against sub-regulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.
Note For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.
With travel agents, there appears to be a $50K limit to work that can be generated "as a charter operator advertiser" and then handed on or done by the travel agent.
Effect of the CASA regs
It is this argument that we are having that really causes the problem - if the regs were well written, CASA had the will, the problems would largely go away.
The catch all is CAR 210 and CAR 206 [Commercial ops]
Just for clarity, CAR 210 says:
CAR 210 Restriction of advertising of commercial operations
(1) A person must not give a public notice, by newspaper advertisement, broadcast statement or any other means of public announcement, to the effect that a person is willing to undertake by use of an Australian aircraft any commercial operations if the last-mentioned person has not obtained an Air Operator’s Certificate authorising the conduct of those operations.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(2) An offence against sub-regulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.
Note For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.
With travel agents, there appears to be a $50K limit to work that can be generated "as a charter operator advertiser" and then handed on or done by the travel agent.
Effect of the CASA regs
It is this argument that we are having that really causes the problem - if the regs were well written, CASA had the will, the problems would largely go away.
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Up-into-the-air
Well put - but the very thrust of my comment is that it is exactly what happens - and that is the local FOI applies their own interpretation to the reg.
In fact, and in practice, that is EXACTLY what happens, interpretation is the law of the day. And yes, perhaps like you, CASA legal have overturned opinions of local FOI's, and applied the spirit of the law, thus allowing commonn sense to rule, and we can then get on with the job.
The difficulty with that scenario is that you then have to survive locally with the FOI whose interpretation has been overturned. Probably not gunna be easy.
Where oh where does an FOI get instructed that interpretations must be avioded. It would not be unreasonable to suggest that interpretations are the underlying cause of the animosity that exists between, in this case, GA, and CASA.
The argument that Aus should adopt, as has NZ, a clear, unambiguous set of rules, to which all subscribe, would seem to gather more credibility with every passing day.
In fact, and in practice, that is EXACTLY what happens, interpretation is the law of the day. And yes, perhaps like you, CASA legal have overturned opinions of local FOI's, and applied the spirit of the law, thus allowing commonn sense to rule, and we can then get on with the job.
The difficulty with that scenario is that you then have to survive locally with the FOI whose interpretation has been overturned. Probably not gunna be easy.
Where oh where does an FOI get instructed that interpretations must be avioded. It would not be unreasonable to suggest that interpretations are the underlying cause of the animosity that exists between, in this case, GA, and CASA.
The argument that Aus should adopt, as has NZ, a clear, unambiguous set of rules, to which all subscribe, would seem to gather more credibility with every passing day.
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Kim,
"The argument that Aus should adopt, as has NZ, a clear, unambiguous set of rules, to which all subscribe, would seem to gather more credibility with every passing day".
Preaching to the converted mate, except for those CASA incompetents who for some weird reason believe their own spin and actually convinced they are doing a wonderful job.
What you suggest is just a "dream", bit like Martin Luther King's
"Ah have a dream" speech.
Trouble is a dream aint reality.
Reality is a couple of hundred million tax payers dollars down the gurgler with no measurable result, because of obstruction, flagrant disregard of the instructions of the government of the day, and just plain pig headeness.
Massive endemic corruption where the rule of Law is totally ignored and perverted to suit the regulators agenda.
The combined weight of multiple ego's in charge, who believe the rest of the world is wrong and they are right. Where “legends” in their own minds actually ignore and hold in contempt, the combined wisdom and experience of people who have spent their whole lives conducting aviation in a safe and efficient manner.
A bottomless purse to ensure all dissent is crushed and any attempt to bring a grievance or even a suggestion is guaranteed to fail because "we have more money than you mate". and we will do whatever, to ensure ”OUR” opinion is carried. Yours does not count!
A man in control who obviously holds the GA industry in contempt.(What the hell did we ever do to him??) Maybe he's another of the industry or RAAF failures who are endemic within his realm??.
Notwithstanding his previous outbursts, a snippet from his recent appearance at the Senate estimates committee.
"We (is that the royal we??)" acknowledge that Reg 206 has been regarded as
" Bad Law" for twenty six years????...
(Well sunshine if it was bad, Why the @#$%&*@ didnt you change it???, you've only had twenty six years to do it!!!).
Even so,
"WE USED IT TO CLOSE DOWN FIFTY OPERATORS" Oh well done, are we supposed to pat you on the back?? Give you a medal??? Knighthood maybe??
Who were offering fixed schedule and fare flights IE (Joy Flights)
"It was not the most popular event" !!!!!
We Duhh!!..Cant imagine those who lost their jobs or businesses after many years of safe operation would exactly be happy about it!!!.
So I guess if you want to operate joy flights you better go spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get an RPT licence, as long as you have this licence your Cessna 172 or whatever will be much safer, at least as safe as a Qantas jumbo... Yeah right!! Trouble is a gullible public would actually believe this.
Hmmm but then we'd have to charge the punters a thousand bucks for their 15 minute "Experience"...
Aint going to happen so "Sigh" it was fun while it lasted, cant fight it, so go quietly into history and close the doors.
Strange that we hold our pioneers of yester year in such high esteem, yet today they would be branded as “Cowboys”.
No wonder tourism is going down the drain here, I've been told by many tourists I've had contact with they wont come here again, Australia is too boring and too expensive.
Dont know about a lot of you here, but I caught the aviation bug when I went on a "JOY Flight" as a sprog in a Tiger Moth, Oh man was that exciting...now 47 years later....well another story, but RPT for JOY Flights???...bit like the twelve mile limit without an international AOC!!
People are drowning thirteen miles out!!!...sorry mate cant go past twelve miles. “Its the LAW”.
Sad to say, but every day the GA industry edges towards oblivion, pushed by the incompetents with ever increasing gobbeldygook that even the lawyers dont understand. It was good while it lasted, when we had rules we could follow, even if they were a Tad old fashioned. We had people in charge we could respect, not corrupt crooks. The time is coming when the only people who will be able to afford to operate GA aircraft will be government departments, of course then we will have a perfect safety record, just like CASA has, they were “Operators” once.
CASA no longer operates aircraft, Their officers are no longer permitted to conduct normal checks, liability is the issue and or lack of competence, so they abrogate their responsibility to monitor standards within the industry by delegating it to the industry itself, this ensures they have another stick they can beat the industry over the head with, “outcome based training”?? What “We” consider, by we, what the FOI of the day, with no qualification, no experience, considers it should be competence…Aw to hell with it, its no wonder we are an International Joke.
"The argument that Aus should adopt, as has NZ, a clear, unambiguous set of rules, to which all subscribe, would seem to gather more credibility with every passing day".
Preaching to the converted mate, except for those CASA incompetents who for some weird reason believe their own spin and actually convinced they are doing a wonderful job.
What you suggest is just a "dream", bit like Martin Luther King's
"Ah have a dream" speech.
Trouble is a dream aint reality.
Reality is a couple of hundred million tax payers dollars down the gurgler with no measurable result, because of obstruction, flagrant disregard of the instructions of the government of the day, and just plain pig headeness.
Massive endemic corruption where the rule of Law is totally ignored and perverted to suit the regulators agenda.
The combined weight of multiple ego's in charge, who believe the rest of the world is wrong and they are right. Where “legends” in their own minds actually ignore and hold in contempt, the combined wisdom and experience of people who have spent their whole lives conducting aviation in a safe and efficient manner.
A bottomless purse to ensure all dissent is crushed and any attempt to bring a grievance or even a suggestion is guaranteed to fail because "we have more money than you mate". and we will do whatever, to ensure ”OUR” opinion is carried. Yours does not count!
A man in control who obviously holds the GA industry in contempt.(What the hell did we ever do to him??) Maybe he's another of the industry or RAAF failures who are endemic within his realm??.
Notwithstanding his previous outbursts, a snippet from his recent appearance at the Senate estimates committee.
"We (is that the royal we??)" acknowledge that Reg 206 has been regarded as
" Bad Law" for twenty six years????...
(Well sunshine if it was bad, Why the @#$%&*@ didnt you change it???, you've only had twenty six years to do it!!!).
Even so,
"WE USED IT TO CLOSE DOWN FIFTY OPERATORS" Oh well done, are we supposed to pat you on the back?? Give you a medal??? Knighthood maybe??
Who were offering fixed schedule and fare flights IE (Joy Flights)
"It was not the most popular event" !!!!!
We Duhh!!..Cant imagine those who lost their jobs or businesses after many years of safe operation would exactly be happy about it!!!.
So I guess if you want to operate joy flights you better go spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get an RPT licence, as long as you have this licence your Cessna 172 or whatever will be much safer, at least as safe as a Qantas jumbo... Yeah right!! Trouble is a gullible public would actually believe this.
Hmmm but then we'd have to charge the punters a thousand bucks for their 15 minute "Experience"...
Aint going to happen so "Sigh" it was fun while it lasted, cant fight it, so go quietly into history and close the doors.
Strange that we hold our pioneers of yester year in such high esteem, yet today they would be branded as “Cowboys”.
No wonder tourism is going down the drain here, I've been told by many tourists I've had contact with they wont come here again, Australia is too boring and too expensive.
Dont know about a lot of you here, but I caught the aviation bug when I went on a "JOY Flight" as a sprog in a Tiger Moth, Oh man was that exciting...now 47 years later....well another story, but RPT for JOY Flights???...bit like the twelve mile limit without an international AOC!!
People are drowning thirteen miles out!!!...sorry mate cant go past twelve miles. “Its the LAW”.
Sad to say, but every day the GA industry edges towards oblivion, pushed by the incompetents with ever increasing gobbeldygook that even the lawyers dont understand. It was good while it lasted, when we had rules we could follow, even if they were a Tad old fashioned. We had people in charge we could respect, not corrupt crooks. The time is coming when the only people who will be able to afford to operate GA aircraft will be government departments, of course then we will have a perfect safety record, just like CASA has, they were “Operators” once.
CASA no longer operates aircraft, Their officers are no longer permitted to conduct normal checks, liability is the issue and or lack of competence, so they abrogate their responsibility to monitor standards within the industry by delegating it to the industry itself, this ensures they have another stick they can beat the industry over the head with, “outcome based training”?? What “We” consider, by we, what the FOI of the day, with no qualification, no experience, considers it should be competence…Aw to hell with it, its no wonder we are an International Joke.
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Originally Posted by “GADRIVR”
Latest rumour is that the organisation has been sold....or parts thereof.
Interesting if thats the case.....guess there are some muppets out there!!!!
Anybody like to confirmor deny??!!
Interesting if thats the case.....guess there are some muppets out there!!!!
Anybody like to confirmor deny??!!
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The company was sold in early 2010 but fell through because of the AOC restrictions and grief airtex was receiving from casa.
Interesting someone would want to buy it now. I can't see that company getting back in the air on it's own. Casa would be all over them even with new ownership
Interesting someone would want to buy it now. I can't see that company getting back in the air on it's own. Casa would be all over them even with new ownership
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Does that mean there are no Aero-med (except for RFDs and NSW Air Ambulence) company at YSBK now?? I was driving around the other day and I saw someone doing the transport and they're the RFDs....
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FFS
p { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Geez`boys - do some reading.
Geez`boys - do some reading.
