RAAF pilots leaving
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So here's an idea, 
So each Wing/Sqn has a number of "Critical Aircrew" positions:
Number of Positions
Positions identified as being critical for retention of corporate knowledge and standards,
Give or take:
Conditions of Service
I think the key is to recognise the different expectations of the current work force.
I guess the next thing to complain about is being stuck as a QFI/B Cat/CC on the same type for your whole life with no variety? What is that they say about the grass.
I've got my helmet on! GO!
p.s. Seems control snatch has gone deep?
So each Wing/Sqn has a number of "Critical Aircrew" positions:
Number of Positions
Positions identified as being critical for retention of corporate knowledge and standards,
Give or take:
- Half the QFI's at an OTU,
- Two QFI/CC/B Cats per line SQN,
- Wing Standards.
Conditions of Service
- Significantly higher pay scales (airlinesque),
- Permanent position/location,
- Regular working hours,
- FLTLT rank so as to focus on the core job of flying,
- Deployments only in order to maintain knowledge of current ops,
- General protection from high op tempo that should be carried/experienced by the young guys within their ROSO,
- ie. Clear job description (ie. you're responsible for these pubs, jobs etc.),
- Some sort of bid system allowing guys to bid for those jobs within the Wing or heaven forbid outside their FEG.
- Maybe they could be responsible to the OC/CDR so as to detach them from pressures from within the SQN?
I think the key is to recognise the different expectations of the current work force.
I guess the next thing to complain about is being stuck as a QFI/B Cat/CC on the same type for your whole life with no variety? What is that they say about the grass.
I've got my helmet on! GO!
p.s. Seems control snatch has gone deep?
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Conditions of Service
- Significantly higher pay scales (airlinesque),
- Permanent position/location,
- Regular working hours,
- FLTLT rank so as to focus on the core job of flying,
- Deployments only in order to maintain knowledge of current ops,
- General protection from high op tempo that should be carried/experienced by the young guys within their ROSO,
- ie. Clear job description (ie. you're responsible for these pubs, jobs etc.),
- Some sort of bid system allowing guys to bid for those jobs within the Wing or heaven forbid outside their FEG.
- Maybe they could be responsible to the OC/CDR so as to detach them from pressures from within the SQN?
- FLTLT QFI takes up said job with "airlinesque" pay, and all other conditions listed above
- He/she decides that "this is alright", and digs in for the long haul
- Sqn / Wing benefits from having a steady presence in the standards branch for a few years
- Up-and-coming QFI finally gets him/herself in a position where they have the experience to fill above position and make a valuable contribution
- Meanwhile, person who took the job to start with has no intention of leaving. "No vacancy" sign gets put up by the career manager, then:
- Up-and-coming QFI says "screw this" when ROSO has expired (due to being flogged because of point 6 above) and leaves to get the "airlinesque" pay the old fashioned way, with the airlines!
The Baffler
Last edited by baffler15; 29th Jan 2008 at 05:48.
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increase the Q&S. Make new grades that go up to 20 years
Does it make sense a FLTLT get's his last pay raise on the day he can resign? I say no.
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If people after first tour want to go to instructors, make it so that instructors course adds 7 years ROSO. (14 years total)
Nice one PAF...and watch the entire training system ground to a COMPLETE halt.
If you hold a gun to a bograt's head after his first tour - make them decide their long term career direction - the vast majority would sit on their hands and not lock themselves in for (say) another seven years. Would you?
The result of that little gem is that no-one would go to FIC (can't force 'em, as it incurs a ROSO) so the system collapses.
Nice one PAF...and watch the entire training system ground to a COMPLETE halt.
If you hold a gun to a bograt's head after his first tour - make them decide their long term career direction - the vast majority would sit on their hands and not lock themselves in for (say) another seven years. Would you?The result of that little gem is that no-one would go to FIC (can't force 'em, as it incurs a ROSO) so the system collapses.
Is this part of some egalitarian ideal of making everyone equally p*ssed off?
I'm not so sure that people wouldn't opt for a ground job rather than the offer of an extra seven years with such an obviously caring outfit, with the added bonus of a chunk of time in Sunny Sale doing an incredibly tedious course. Some people will finish that sh*t sandwich with the dessert of some time flying a bug smasher in Tamworth.
How about that old-fashioned idea that the performers are sent to QFIs, the strugglers are sent to the less desirable postings, and we actually reward people for effort and/or ability? Maybe if there was reward for effort, more effort may be expended, and the system avoids annoying the very people it would like to keep.
Don't they teach empathy in the new age management courses that the senior officers do nowadays?
I'm not so sure that people wouldn't opt for a ground job rather than the offer of an extra seven years with such an obviously caring outfit, with the added bonus of a chunk of time in Sunny Sale doing an incredibly tedious course. Some people will finish that sh*t sandwich with the dessert of some time flying a bug smasher in Tamworth.
How about that old-fashioned idea that the performers are sent to QFIs, the strugglers are sent to the less desirable postings, and we actually reward people for effort and/or ability? Maybe if there was reward for effort, more effort may be expended, and the system avoids annoying the very people it would like to keep.
Don't they teach empathy in the new age management courses that the senior officers do nowadays?
Critical Aircrew positions?
PLE.
Has anyone asked the boggies what they want? I'm sure they'd be thrilled with the prospect of all the senior flying positions being filled by immovable FLTLT's while they get stuck as copilots.
Remember... if this was instituted 5 to 10 years ago, most of you bitching here wouldn't have had captaincies. How many of you would have pushed for it then?
ruprecht.
Has anyone asked the boggies what they want? I'm sure they'd be thrilled with the prospect of all the senior flying positions being filled by immovable FLTLT's while they get stuck as copilots.
Remember... if this was instituted 5 to 10 years ago, most of you bitching here wouldn't have had captaincies. How many of you would have pushed for it then?
ruprecht.
The rate at which the boggies are being churned out by 2FTS has increased at the same time as the training ability at the FEGs has decreased. This makes for interesting times as the the standard of the 2FTS graduate seems to have decreased at the same time 
.
I think the boggies these days will count themselves lucky to be copilots at all in a sensible timeframe.
.I think the boggies these days will count themselves lucky to be copilots at all in a sensible timeframe.
as the the standard of the 2FTS graduate seems to have decreased at the same time
But who can really say!!
As for PAF's excellent idea
. You will be a GPCAPT in no time with ideas like that. I can tell you what I would have done if they had tried to slap an extra roso on for FIC and it sure would not involve instructing.
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Ruprecht and Baffler15.
I'm suggesting a critical mass, not all positions. So say half permanent and the other half ebbing and flowing as things are at the moment. There will still be the flow that we have now to allow guys to keep moving "Up" through flying positions. Ultimately if you're not good or lucky enough to score a permanent job, **** happens, the organisation can only do what it can, at least the possibility of permanency would be there. I think it's pretty clear that the machine relies on a certain amount of separation.
The question I really want an answer to, is would guys really be happy being a QFI/CC/FCI in one FEG till they're 60?
Having seen another military that encourages guys to stay til 20 years to get a pension, interest/job satisfaction wanes pretty quickly after the first couple of postings? With time you end up with at best dullards and at worst negative grizzlers polluting the minds of the following generations making the workplace about as joyous as a morgue.
I think we can please more but due to the nature of the beast guys are going to miss out. At least with numerous permanent/critical positions guys will have a chance and something to aspire to, and from the RAAF's pov it will be protected from experience drains.
Who knows.
ps. I like the idea of shifting your pay scale to the right and for more years if you have post grad quals.
I'm suggesting a critical mass, not all positions. So say half permanent and the other half ebbing and flowing as things are at the moment. There will still be the flow that we have now to allow guys to keep moving "Up" through flying positions. Ultimately if you're not good or lucky enough to score a permanent job, **** happens, the organisation can only do what it can, at least the possibility of permanency would be there. I think it's pretty clear that the machine relies on a certain amount of separation.
The question I really want an answer to, is would guys really be happy being a QFI/CC/FCI in one FEG till they're 60?
Having seen another military that encourages guys to stay til 20 years to get a pension, interest/job satisfaction wanes pretty quickly after the first couple of postings? With time you end up with at best dullards and at worst negative grizzlers polluting the minds of the following generations making the workplace about as joyous as a morgue.
I think we can please more but due to the nature of the beast guys are going to miss out. At least with numerous permanent/critical positions guys will have a chance and something to aspire to, and from the RAAF's pov it will be protected from experience drains.
Who knows.
ps. I like the idea of shifting your pay scale to the right and for more years if you have post grad quals.
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answers?
I too believe the answer lies (at least partially) with a pay scale that expands either vertically or horizontally. An ADMINO Sqn Cdr gets extra pay banding for doing the job - pilots, no difference, it needs sorting and hopefully (tell him he's dreamin') will be this year. I also understand the old sticking point of the army being tied with us when discussing pilot pay (LTCOL - "Christ we can't have bloody Major pilots being paid more than me - they're only tank drivers in the air, say NO!!) has now stopped as they are separate this time around, thank God. It's been a stopper for us in the past.
It does beg the question what will happen to WGCDR etc pay if the SQNLDR's/ Senior FLTLT's are being paid say 140k.
The latest paperwork to come out of DP covering the new pay structure is quite specific saying that all PAF and reservists will get their pay increase back-dated to 07 if they are placed higher in GOPS. Pilots have not yet been placed, so when we are later this year we can all look forward to that back pay..................... hoorah!
Pay is only part of the story though, and better T&C should be looked at. The number of reservists is on the up and a decent Spec Aircrew scheme perhaps offering a pay increase at either FLTLT or SQNLDR rank ultimately reflecting the pay of a career WGCDR would help.
I understand the RAF are currently offering GBP150k for a SQNLDR to stay for 5 years post age 38 point. It's a worldwide phenomenon. The RAF PA spine (Spec aircrew alternative) may be a good template - it offers someone who wants to fly and doesn't care about a career, pay ultimately equivalent to a junior GPCAPT. I believe it was so successful (surprise) that it's now almost impossible to get on.
It does beg the question what will happen to WGCDR etc pay if the SQNLDR's/ Senior FLTLT's are being paid say 140k.
The latest paperwork to come out of DP covering the new pay structure is quite specific saying that all PAF and reservists will get their pay increase back-dated to 07 if they are placed higher in GOPS. Pilots have not yet been placed, so when we are later this year we can all look forward to that back pay..................... hoorah!
Pay is only part of the story though, and better T&C should be looked at. The number of reservists is on the up and a decent Spec Aircrew scheme perhaps offering a pay increase at either FLTLT or SQNLDR rank ultimately reflecting the pay of a career WGCDR would help.
I understand the RAF are currently offering GBP150k for a SQNLDR to stay for 5 years post age 38 point. It's a worldwide phenomenon. The RAF PA spine (Spec aircrew alternative) may be a good template - it offers someone who wants to fly and doesn't care about a career, pay ultimately equivalent to a junior GPCAPT. I believe it was so successful (surprise) that it's now almost impossible to get on.
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Hey Margs, where did you get the info about the Army and AF pay issue being separate entities from. Wasn't aware they had separate cases, I was in the green a while back and still have chums doing the do and a portion of them are getting the famed 30K.
How has the pilot pay case been split between services? Given the long term outlook for a 'purple' training system won't that be somewhat of a spanner.
I was under the impression the two were still linked and they just told said LTCOLs to grab a can of harden up coz the haemhorraging needs slowing by increasingly drastic measures. Be interested to know what you've heard, since right hand so often never spoke to left hand.
TW
How has the pilot pay case been split between services? Given the long term outlook for a 'purple' training system won't that be somewhat of a spanner.
I was under the impression the two were still linked and they just told said LTCOLs to grab a can of harden up coz the haemhorraging needs slowing by increasingly drastic measures. Be interested to know what you've heard, since right hand so often never spoke to left hand.
TW
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TW,
Agreed the Army are in for the 30k, but the word on the street was that the GOPS pay decision would not be purple - it's the only hope we have for arguing a decent case, if the army are involved it just deteriorates into an argument and we achieve nothing, and neither do they. As to the truth in that rumour - who knows.
I see the steady stream of interviews in HK and the like continues, 12 month ROSO means nothing for most with LSL and a bag of leave remaining, can still be out with 16k in the back pocket middle of the year.
Agreed the Army are in for the 30k, but the word on the street was that the GOPS pay decision would not be purple - it's the only hope we have for arguing a decent case, if the army are involved it just deteriorates into an argument and we achieve nothing, and neither do they. As to the truth in that rumour - who knows.
I see the steady stream of interviews in HK and the like continues, 12 month ROSO means nothing for most with LSL and a bag of leave remaining, can still be out with 16k in the back pocket middle of the year.
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There's an interview in the March issue of Australian Aviation with JB which provides some good context.
I've taken the 30K (but wasn't planning on leaving anyway
), but I look forward to seeing what the proposed 're-engineering' changes will entail.
With Shep leaving this year and JB likely to take the reins, and then JQ and Binny coming through, maybe we'll see his plans come to fruition.
I've taken the 30K (but wasn't planning on leaving anyway
), but I look forward to seeing what the proposed 're-engineering' changes will entail. With Shep leaving this year and JB likely to take the reins, and then JQ and Binny coming through, maybe we'll see his plans come to fruition.
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Four at my unit (including myself) have applied. Wasn't planing on going anywhere in the next 12 months anyway.
Will it sway anyone from joining the airlines - not a hope! Will it make a difference? Not really. Just like all the other "bribes" before it.
As I keep on saying, it will require a fundamental shift in personel management that no senior officer has the kahunas to implement, even though they all know what will fix the problem.
Really hope JB doesn't assume the crown though My money's on JQ - at least he's got a personality (for a knuck!).
Will it sway anyone from joining the airlines - not a hope! Will it make a difference? Not really. Just like all the other "bribes" before it.
As I keep on saying, it will require a fundamental shift in personel management that no senior officer has the kahunas to implement, even though they all know what will fix the problem.
Really hope JB doesn't assume the crown though
My money's on JQ - at least he's got a personality (for a knuck!).
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Here's a retention plan.......bring back the DFRDB pension........that'll have a few squadron leaders hanging around 'till they're in their late 30s.
And whilst your at it....
1. 3 winged brevets for all non-fighter pilots
2. 4 winged brevets for all fighter pilots
3. Post all EDOs to the northern end of lane 1 at Salt Ash, and go to town with some HEI
4. Strap all reference to Travel Cards, PM Keys, Environmental Clearance Certificates and Individual Readiness to 2000lbs of instant sunshine, and pickle it onto R1 in Canberra
Ohhh.....I could go on for hours......
lmh
And whilst your at it....
1. 3 winged brevets for all non-fighter pilots
2. 4 winged brevets for all fighter pilots
3. Post all EDOs to the northern end of lane 1 at Salt Ash, and go to town with some HEI
4. Strap all reference to Travel Cards, PM Keys, Environmental Clearance Certificates and Individual Readiness to 2000lbs of instant sunshine, and pickle it onto R1 in Canberra
Ohhh.....I could go on for hours......
lmh