RAAF pilots leaving
All pilots should receive the CAFgram via their CO. $30K, DP-AF to invite those qualified FLTLT and SQNLDR only, ex ROSO, to remain in Feb08-Feb09.
Whilst personally I am on the way out to a future with a LCC, I expect there will be many others like me who are discounted and a little peeved for whatever reason - including working too hard and being promoted! Hence not getting an offer.
And what about all the hardworking B and C Cat drivers who give their all to keep ops going safely? Given the massive airline recruitment happening now, anyone planning to get out for an major airline career would have to consider a year down the seniority list and likely sacrificing more than a year as a skipper - which could be double the bonus amount offered over one year. So this offer is likely to only keep the stayers anyway and peeve off many others. I think DP may have missed the boat on this one.
Whilst personally I am on the way out to a future with a LCC, I expect there will be many others like me who are discounted and a little peeved for whatever reason - including working too hard and being promoted! Hence not getting an offer.
And what about all the hardworking B and C Cat drivers who give their all to keep ops going safely? Given the massive airline recruitment happening now, anyone planning to get out for an major airline career would have to consider a year down the seniority list and likely sacrificing more than a year as a skipper - which could be double the bonus amount offered over one year. So this offer is likely to only keep the stayers anyway and peeve off many others. I think DP may have missed the boat on this one.
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Interesting. Was it not CAF that publicly (Aust aviation?) said there wasn’t a QFI shortage? Or was he talking more broadly about pilots?
Mixed messages. If there is no pilot shortage and presumably no shortage of experience but just a shortage of QFI, why not train more QFI? I presume there is a ROSO attached – 2 years?? Even if CFS is stretched, could not the course be exported to 2FTS. Or possibly an accepted OS course – CFS UK.
I can understand why it may prove divisive and may in fact be detrimental to retention if all those experienced pilots (non instructors) and QTP’s (presuming QTP’s aren’t being offered the 30K) feel they are not valued to the same extent.
Mixed messages. If there is no pilot shortage and presumably no shortage of experience but just a shortage of QFI, why not train more QFI? I presume there is a ROSO attached – 2 years?? Even if CFS is stretched, could not the course be exported to 2FTS. Or possibly an accepted OS course – CFS UK.
I can understand why it may prove divisive and may in fact be detrimental to retention if all those experienced pilots (non instructors) and QTP’s (presuming QTP’s aren’t being offered the 30K) feel they are not valued to the same extent.
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For those who still haven't received:
QFI, Operational Flying Instructor, TP, FCI or CC. SQNLDRS/FLTLT outside pilots course ROSO.
DP will contact eligible pers by 01 Feb, and they have until end of Feb to respond.
CAF is asking us to "Hold the Faith" until a new pay structure is worked out through 2008.
Unfortunately, at best this may be a $5K pay raise (?), certainly not life changing....
As someone mentioned, this would have been a good idea 12 months ago....
I'm out.
QFI, Operational Flying Instructor, TP, FCI or CC. SQNLDRS/FLTLT outside pilots course ROSO.
DP will contact eligible pers by 01 Feb, and they have until end of Feb to respond.
CAF is asking us to "Hold the Faith" until a new pay structure is worked out through 2008.
Unfortunately, at best this may be a $5K pay raise (?), certainly not life changing....
As someone mentioned, this would have been a good idea 12 months ago....
I'm out.
Thanks for the info Blogsey.
Griffin, one of the looming problems is there is not enough sausage meat in the system to make more QFIs let alone CFS QFIs to train them, or at the very least there is no fat (I mean you have to fill those ground jobs!)
As someone who may have got this offer (I have a few of those initials) it is very disappointing that it it took so long (How long have the airlines been expanding for? CX > 12 Months, Jetstar > 12 months, Qantas 12 Months, Virgin 8 months).
It may (along with some posting guidance) been enough to stay. At least some recognition that our skills are/were valued nearer to market rates.
Instead anyone outside ROSO that was going has probably gone (the same old song isn't it) and good luck to those who
were staying anyway, enjoy, strangely enough I miss it already!!
Positive rate, gear up , autopilot on, coffee please.....
Griffin, one of the looming problems is there is not enough sausage meat in the system to make more QFIs let alone CFS QFIs to train them, or at the very least there is no fat (I mean you have to fill those ground jobs!)
As someone who may have got this offer (I have a few of those initials) it is very disappointing that it it took so long (How long have the airlines been expanding for? CX > 12 Months, Jetstar > 12 months, Qantas 12 Months, Virgin 8 months).
It may (along with some posting guidance) been enough to stay. At least some recognition that our skills are/were valued nearer to market rates.
Instead anyone outside ROSO that was going has probably gone (the same old song isn't it) and good luck to those who
were staying anyway, enjoy, strangely enough I miss it already!!
Positive rate, gear up , autopilot on, coffee please.....
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Blogsey,
you said
Does it indicate what the story is for those with some small amount of ROSO remaining for other things (eg conversion)?
Victor
you said
SQNLDRS/FLTLT outside pilots course ROSO.
Victor
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Biggles,
I understand what you are saying and agree with you. I can assure you RAAF is not the only service where the sausage meat (to you use your analogy) is distinctly lacking. My main observation was CAF’s (public) message that there was no retention problem.
On another note. I would imagine that most of the line QFI’s would still have pilots course ROSO, thus not being eligible for the bonus.
Lastly, I presume you would need to be in a current flying position, so all those QFI’s who fell on there sword and are doing ‘career broadening’ postings (and perhaps took a ground job at the end of last year) may/won’t be entitled.
I understand what you are saying and agree with you. I can assure you RAAF is not the only service where the sausage meat (to you use your analogy) is distinctly lacking. My main observation was CAF’s (public) message that there was no retention problem.
On another note. I would imagine that most of the line QFI’s would still have pilots course ROSO, thus not being eligible for the bonus.
Lastly, I presume you would need to be in a current flying position, so all those QFI’s who fell on there sword and are doing ‘career broadening’ postings (and perhaps took a ground job at the end of last year) may/won’t be entitled.
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griffinblack,
You may well be right but only extending the offer to those in flying positions would be very short sighted (even by RAAF standards). If that is the case those starting work this week in new ground jobs who may have even being looking forward to a bit a respite from the op tempo will be reconsidering their perceived value by the system.
Given a Check Captain qual is only specific to an aircraft type and valid for the tour, it will be interesting to see if DP offers to those who have held the qual in the past but may no longer due to a change of type or a ground job.
You may well be right but only extending the offer to those in flying positions would be very short sighted (even by RAAF standards). If that is the case those starting work this week in new ground jobs who may have even being looking forward to a bit a respite from the op tempo will be reconsidering their perceived value by the system.
Given a Check Captain qual is only specific to an aircraft type and valid for the tour, it will be interesting to see if DP offers to those who have held the qual in the past but may no longer due to a change of type or a ground job.
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My understanding is that, although there is not an overall problem with pilot numbers, there has been a worrying trend in the past 12 months (60+ QFIs leaving since early 06). Additionally, 2FTS is having issues 'throughputting' enough trainees, hence the nine guys over in Canada.
The payment is basically meant to be a hold-short until further initiatives can be cleared - the first of these should see the light of day by mid year including new pay scales, better housing allowances etc.
Might be worth sticking for another year to see what's coming?
The payment is basically meant to be a hold-short until further initiatives can be cleared - the first of these should see the light of day by mid year including new pay scales, better housing allowances etc.
Might be worth sticking for another year to see what's coming?
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Does it indicate what the story is for those with some small amount of ROSO remaining for other things (eg conversion)?
Griffinblack, I know of no QFI's in ground jobs, there aren't enough for that.
Camonred - Once a CC always a CC as far as I know (my FEG). Whether one is current or not is a different issue, but as above, are there that many CC's not in flying roles? I know of none.
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Latest info from the people in the know is that it will probably be offered to those with post graduate ROSO (B737, C-17 etc) at the moment, but the 12 month bonus will just extend that ROSO by 12 months effectively.
There are various QFIs about the place in ground jobs in both the FLTLT and SQNLDR ranks.
I imagine there will be a flurry of suitably experienced chaps pushing for their first Check Captain qualification in the next few weeks. Seemingly a 'fast track' (on some types) into this bonus as compared with slogging it out on FIC or Test Pilot School.
VI
There are various QFIs about the place in ground jobs in both the FLTLT and SQNLDR ranks.
I imagine there will be a flurry of suitably experienced chaps pushing for their first Check Captain qualification in the next few weeks. Seemingly a 'fast track' (on some types) into this bonus as compared with slogging it out on FIC or Test Pilot School.
VI
which part of 'out of pilots course ROSO' is hard to understand???
It doesn't say anything about having to be in a flying position.
Anyone who thinks you wont work a lot of hours (including time away as work) in a LCC hasn't looked into it too hard.
It doesn't say anything about having to be in a flying position.
Anyone who thinks you wont work a lot of hours (including time away as work) in a LCC hasn't looked into it too hard.
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Oh how the wheel turns………
Who remembers the $60,000 (before tax!) retention bonus offered around the late 80’s? And exactly how successful was that? 5/8’s of SFA by my recollection.
So here we are again. The dunderheads (or just one in particular!) at the top refusing to believe what is plainly evident to everyone else and making all but a token effort to appear that they are doing something about it, not really giving a f**k because they will be out in a few months anyway!
Can anyone really believe that FLTLT Bloggs is going to tell QF to hold that 747 slot for 12 months because they’ve taken the bribe? How f**king stupid do these d*ckheads think we are?!?!?
Well I honestly hope some true initiatives are implemented, because there really needs to be a major shift in rank structure, manning, and employment policies if the RAAF are really serious about retaining the experience they so sorely need.
Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Who remembers the $60,000 (before tax!) retention bonus offered around the late 80’s? And exactly how successful was that? 5/8’s of SFA by my recollection.
So here we are again. The dunderheads (or just one in particular!) at the top refusing to believe what is plainly evident to everyone else and making all but a token effort to appear that they are doing something about it, not really giving a f**k because they will be out in a few months anyway!
Can anyone really believe that FLTLT Bloggs is going to tell QF to hold that 747 slot for 12 months because they’ve taken the bribe? How f**king stupid do these d*ckheads think we are?!?!?
The payment is basically meant to be a hold-short until further initiatives can be cleared - the first of these should see the light of day by mid year including new pay scales, better housing allowances etc.
Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
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I'm sure Captian Sand Dune and others would have had a laugh (perhaps a cry) before leaving the building after this one....
Last years pay review roll out explaination forum at a RAAF base near you:
Presenter: 'The problem with you aircrew, is the fact it takes such a large amount of money and time to train you - and you have a capability we are unable to simply buy laterally'
Pilot: 'Wouldn't offering an attractive retention bonus/contract, at the conclusion of an aircrew ROSO be effectively the same as buying that capability?'
Presenter: 'No.'
Pilot: 'But wouldn't you be 'buying' that capability for an additional 2,5 or 10 year term, one that is already current and trained?'
Presenter: 'No.'
Bemused pilot: 'Why not?'
Presenter: 'It's complex and difficult to explain....'
While it is at least something, and some sort of recognition to be offered the 30K bonus with promises of a dramatic pay review, I'm not convinced about the caliber coming to the party...
Last years pay review roll out explaination forum at a RAAF base near you:
Presenter: 'The problem with you aircrew, is the fact it takes such a large amount of money and time to train you - and you have a capability we are unable to simply buy laterally'
Pilot: 'Wouldn't offering an attractive retention bonus/contract, at the conclusion of an aircrew ROSO be effectively the same as buying that capability?'
Presenter: 'No.'
Pilot: 'But wouldn't you be 'buying' that capability for an additional 2,5 or 10 year term, one that is already current and trained?'
Presenter: 'No.'
Bemused pilot: 'Why not?'
Presenter: 'It's complex and difficult to explain....'
While it is at least something, and some sort of recognition to be offered the 30K bonus with promises of a dramatic pay review, I'm not convinced about the caliber coming to the party...
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N_r,
Well there goes my blood pressure
But I shouldn't really be surprised.
Said "presenter" was thinking within the narrow confines of a totally outdated manning policy, so in a way he/she was probably correct.
The "system" relies on movement through the ranks to function in the way it has been desgned to. Unfortunately the "system" has not kept pace with the times, and unfortunately neither have those whom have the power to make meaningful changes.
Sounding like a broken record, aren't I?
Well there goes my blood pressure
But I shouldn't really be surprised.
Said "presenter" was thinking within the narrow confines of a totally outdated manning policy, so in a way he/she was probably correct.
The "system" relies on movement through the ranks to function in the way it has been desgned to. Unfortunately the "system" has not kept pace with the times, and unfortunately neither have those whom have the power to make meaningful changes.
Sounding like a broken record, aren't I?
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More leaving
I guess a number of guys have just been hanging on in the hope the bonus may have made staying worthwhile. One more resignation today with a further 3 (that i know of) who now have formal job offers which they'll take, but which the RAAF knows nothing about yet.
Guess on the plus side if the retention problem is still big later this year then it adds weight to the pay review - he said optimistically!
Guess on the plus side if the retention problem is still big later this year then it adds weight to the pay review - he said optimistically!
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30K pre tax - Tell 'em they're dreaming !!
The only people keen to sign are those wanting to stay in any way.
This will retain no-one. Given the hiring rate of all the majors, delaying employment for 1 year will seriously effect ones potential seniority, and in effect future earnings. Not good enough Shep !!
As for the "potential" pay rise. Hmmmm. Haven't we all heard this before.
I heard this story recently. Not sure if fact or fiction (does it really matter).
Brenden Nelson (newly appointed Defence Minister) is touring the Navy's Submarine base and noticed 2 Collins Class Subs along side. When asked he asked why, the Admiral stated that they didnt have enough LCDR Engineers to man it. They keep leaving for better paid positions. Nelson's reply " So you are telling me that 2 X billion dollar submarines are not deployed because the Navy wont spend an extra 50K to retain key officers ?".
Reply " Ahh yes Sir, but its more complicated than that".........
The only people keen to sign are those wanting to stay in any way.
This will retain no-one. Given the hiring rate of all the majors, delaying employment for 1 year will seriously effect ones potential seniority, and in effect future earnings. Not good enough Shep !!
As for the "potential" pay rise. Hmmmm. Haven't we all heard this before.
I heard this story recently. Not sure if fact or fiction (does it really matter).
Brenden Nelson (newly appointed Defence Minister) is touring the Navy's Submarine base and noticed 2 Collins Class Subs along side. When asked he asked why, the Admiral stated that they didnt have enough LCDR Engineers to man it. They keep leaving for better paid positions. Nelson's reply " So you are telling me that 2 X billion dollar submarines are not deployed because the Navy wont spend an extra 50K to retain key officers ?".
Reply " Ahh yes Sir, but its more complicated than that".........
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RAAF Retention
I have to agree with Hugh....the 30K' will be taken up by those staying put regardless.
Those sitting on the fence should look at this as a 'slap in the face'. A tiny carrot. Those FLTLT/SQNLDR's out of ROSO are worth more than that I think.
Those sitting on the fence should look at this as a 'slap in the face'. A tiny carrot. Those FLTLT/SQNLDR's out of ROSO are worth more than that I think.
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Reserves
Anyone in the know what the current direction is with Reserves? I thought I heard some rumbling a little while ago that more effort/$ was to be funneled in this area...or were they talking about grunts?
I am an ex-QFI (recently departed), would love to do some work if I was suitably compensated...
I am an ex-QFI (recently departed), would love to do some work if I was suitably compensated...
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Rentention/Reserve
Wine Glass,
Haven't heard anything about more $$$ for reserves, however, I know that in certain areas of the RAAF (in particular 2FTS) have been employing more and more reserves, especially those who have been out of the game for some time.
Haven't heard anything about more $$$ for reserves, however, I know that in certain areas of the RAAF (in particular 2FTS) have been employing more and more reserves, especially those who have been out of the game for some time.