Hotel Charlie

Well Timilu.
We do need to get some facks strait! Firstly we were NOT offered equal terms. The "kombilist" came with a five year penalty! When it comes to: your record speaks for it self I think. Ask the LIN- and the Commuter guys about the way they´ve been treated and how they feel about the likes of You as a "friendly" colleage! Now you want to do the same thing again! Get a grip man. There is only one way to go to clean this mess up: Give the LIN guys back their rightful seniority and likewise the commuter guys and stop looking upon Yourself as Gods gift to mankind!

Kingsnake

From what I´ve heard Braathens resisted the integration of Commuter into SASBraathens. Why this sudden concern for their welfare???
Northern trees bear a strange fruit ....

Timilu

Exactly Kingsnake,

HC, either you are in complete denial about facts, or your union hasn´t told you about those facts. It was your union that wanted to shaft SC my friend, and keep them out alltogether. You speak with two tongues.
If you had actually thought it possible to just jump in on the kombilist with no penalty, when you have captains hired in ´96, and have them stay captains with FO´s in SAS having been hired in ´90 you are naiive beyond belief. No pilot in his right mind would accept that.
As I´ve said before, your union has choosen to protect the priveleges of your young captains, and sold off all of your co-pilots in a way, that defies belief. And YOU comment on how other groups treat eachother.

Can you confirm for me please, that the only reason that you´ve reacted against this passive transport deal now is, that you´re afraid that SE and DK pilots will actually accept their rightful place as CDR. in a SAS/BU plane. SE and DK pilots that are 6 years older in seniority than your youngest captain.
Or is there something else? Please comment.

Hotel Charlie

You do live in a distorted reality Timilu!
The BU guys said no to letting the commuter guys in without bringing in any production. The original plan was that they be brought over from commuter but with no planes!?? The production was to be given to WF. On top of that the production was actually BU´s from the beginning. So Timilu, stop makeing up stories.
And when it comes to BUSK, yes the deal was that if you wanted to fly for SAS Braathens (which is a seperate company with its own AOC) you were to relocate to OSL base or get there on your own, and be "stuck" for 3 years! That was the deal we agreed upon and nothing else! PFOR smiled and said yes and went behind thier new colleagues backs and made some new deals.

Kingsnake

HC are you sure local management did not know about this?

Well whatever - looks like everyones stuck with each other now. Can´t see any way back ...

A word of caution though HC - before consigning fellow pilots to burn in hell - keep an eye open for the possibilty that your real enemy is management - also the local guys - I have strong reason to suspect they knew much more than they are letting on. You´d better base your future on coming to terms with your fellow pilots. Management will always try to screw you - who knows maybe they alreadt have.

Happy Landings

Timilu

HC

I accept your point on the production, that was supposed to go to WF. Fair enough, although I find it amazing that BU pilots were even asked if/how SC guys should be included in SASBU. They´ve been in the group much longer than any of you guys, but again that case is closed now.

Your second part...You still won´t say why you are making such a fuss about the passive transport deal. Just that, according to you, it was not supposed to be like that.
I´ll try one more time:
Tell us... very quick...why is it a problem for you guys, that SE-DK pilots can travel passive to and from OSL for duty in SASBU???

Hotel Charlie

Timilu, they can do whatever they want as long as they start their duty and check in at OSL. If they need to travel, it´s at their own expense! SASBU only has 3 bases and that is OSL, TRD and SVG. What is so hard to understand?
If we were working for the same company, no problem but since you guys don´t want that unless you get to screw oss over.. We are where we are!

Ramrise

Hotel Charlie,

Once again just to make sure.

You are no longer a BU pilot. You are (almost) an SAS pilot. You work in the same company. Sure, they call it SAS/BU in Norway, in Denmark we call it SAS/DK. We even have an Intercontinental division.

We have three bases, CPH, STO and OSL. I have access to all of them, you have access to one (your own choosing).

The determining factor is of course Kombilisten. Whether you like it or not that list rules our lives. It will also influence yours, get used to it. Again, everything I can have, you can have. Come on over and you will see, it is not that bad. In a few years time it will be to your benefit. I keep thinking that all the younger BU pilots are wondering what to do just now. They can join the list without any cost right now, and they will be welcome. So will you!!



Regards,

Ramrise

Kingsnake

Getting cosy here now.

Come on HC - join the club - you´ll love us once you get to know us! I´m sure we´ll even find ways to adress your concerns. Your life will surely be better as part of the big group and certainly worse if you persist in staying outside complaining for all to hear.

What about your local union merger. How´s that coming along? Is there any good news anywhere??

I´ll buy you your first beer in Bangkok and introduce you to some ladies who will make sure you´ll never think of Braathens again in your life.

Happy ending - as they say out there

Timilu

HC


You´re avoiding answering my very simple question. I know that you want them to start duty in OSL, pay their own overnights in OSL etc. etc. etc.

For the third time, I ask you WHY is it a problem for you guys if the SE-DK fly passive to OSL and back
just as I fly with OSL guys who are flying passive down and up for duty in CPH.


Tell us all now, WHY it is so important for you, that they travel at own expense and start duty at OSL.
Is that question so difficult to understand?

Hotel Charlie

Ramrise, Timilu and Kingsnake are you really offering BU pilots a number on the "kombilisten" with no penalties? If so I´d be glad to join forces with you against the continueing degradation of our proffession by the beancounters and their lackeys.

Now the feeling I am getting though is mayby not! What I do think you mean is: Come join oss, but first we need to screw You over (at least 5 years) so that we can better our own position on Your behafe

It was said by SK management and it´s pilots that it would NOT do the LIN thing again because it was one of the dumbest things they had ever done! What happened? They actually made a deal that is eaven worse!
I consider you guys fairly intelligent but if you really think the BU guys should be happy about this, then I´m not so sure When LH buys the hole shoebang how do you want Fritz to treat you?

When it comes to young BU captains and senior SK F/O´s it is somthing that needs to be taken care of! I totally agree

The way it is now, contrary to what Ramrise may think, is two companies: SK (sk dk, sk se and intercont) and there is SKBU!
SKBU has three bases : OSL, TRD and SVG thus if you choose to work for SKBU you get one of those three norwegian bases and nothing else! I hope that clearifies it for you Timilu

Flathatter

"The way it is now, contrary to what Ramrise may think, is two companies: SK (sk dk, sk se and intercont) and there is SKBU!"

HC, you've got to be a major league knucklehead, dumber than @#$% to believe that! How naive can one get?! It boggles the mind.

And you fly airplanes...

Hotel Charlie

Check your A-manual Flathatter!

Ramrise

Well,

this is starting to get funny in a sad kind of a way. Whether there is one or more companies is secondary as long as there is only one list.

So, Hotel Charlie, while you may have access to the new SK/BU 'domestic norway' bases, I have access to production in any one of three scandinavian bases. That seems like a much better deal to me.

Seriously, you know as well as I do that the majority of seniority list integrations usually carry some sort of price for the guys to be integrated. Some have been placed at the bottom, others have given up several years. The point is that you will gain something if you join the list.

Regards,


Ramrise



'There can be only one'

quote from Highlander

Hotel Charlie

Well Ramrise, you are right! This is getting sad. There are TWO lists: one Kombi and one NFL list. This is of course where all the pain lies. PFOR did not accept norwegian labour law so they made a NFL list on the side of the Kombilist where SK guys have places on both lists whereas BU guys only have a spot on the NFL list.
"We (PFOR=SK pilots) will strike eaven if it means bankrupcy for SAS before we follow norwegian law and let the BU guys inn without penalty!"??
Could you please tell the ppruners what kind of a future colleague friendship that makes for? (sorry)

Kingsnake

HC

Is it not a fact that Norwegian law - an area which seems to have your undivided attention - would have prevented any demotions from captain to copilot. Consequently you could have preserved your privelleged positions (no firings, and captaincy after 7 years) after entering the SAS seniority list without paying a price. In other words: Were you prepared - if let directly on to the senioritylist - to accept demotion of 45 Braathens captains and the firing of approximately 50 junior copilots in order to share the same career terms as the SAS pilots (15% firings and captaincy after 15 years)?????

The answer to this question is of course a big NO. Consequently all your sanctimonious howling about the law, and your self portrayal as victims, is nothing but a smokescreen designed to gain sympathy from those who do not know the facts. Face it HC, you tried to screw your future co-workers, got into bed with local management and have now learnt the hard way that the SAS pilot group doesn´t take XXXX from management, it´s lackeys, norwegian law or anything else.

If you still think you´d like to try to piss on us I´m sure more pain can be provided untill such a time as you either shut up or are all exported to Wideroe.

You made a deal. Shut up or ship out.

Kingsnake

Timilu

Back from work,

No Hotel Charlie, it doesn´t clarify diddly for me, because you´re still doing all you can not to answer my very simple question. And you know it.
I wanted to hear you say it, but since you refuse to lay your cards on the table, here goes: The problem for you guys in BSF is that you wanted the deal to be as bad as possible for senior SE and DK pilots, so that they would find it very UNattractive for them to accept their rightful Commanderposition on the OSL base. Now that the DD deal has been made, and pilots from STO and CPH travel passive to OSL (as we always have done in SK, and as you will if you get to fly LH out of STO and CPH), you guys are suddenly pissed, because you had thought that younger BU guys would get CDR posn´s because senior SE and DK pilots would find the "offer" too unattractive"!

You may think that but you keep forgetting that we have a common senioritylist, and that is your big problem when discussing this case.
Very well, latest is, that BSF have gone rather quiet, and that this little misunderstanding on their side is being corrected as we speak.
You may call us radical and all HC, but the kombilist is here to stay, we´ll strike for it, because without it we´re f****d. We´ve seen that, and you are beginning to see it, and that is bad news for people who won´t join it.

G-buster

Timilu

Have you ever tried some simple math?
Pilots travelling from Denmark or Sweden to work in Norway. At least half a day each end of a five day not producing anything but one less seat for the company to sell. Out of a five day production, 20% less due to travelling. Cost of per diem and hotel in Oslo, depending on scheduling from one to four days. Who is going to pay for this extra expense?

Kingsnake (good name for a SAS pilot)

Read the norwegian laws again! Unlike what some SAS pilot think, norwegians laws specificly states: You transer to a new company with your TITLE and SENORITY.

Lets look at what "old" Braathens brought in to the new company:
A historical result for the first half of 2004. First quarter gave us unexpected "black numbers" and by the half year mark we had already made half a billion. Unfortunately the rest of the year we shared our numbers with norwegian SAS and all of a sudden, despite 3. and 4. quarter being good times for most airlines, we lost most of the half billion and ended up with a year result of measely 4 million.
SASBraathens senority list (NFL)has a fixed number of positions for SAS pilots on the "kombilist" and the ex Braathens pilots have a number of positions. As long as we merge the norwegian part of SAS and "old" Braathens into one company I don't see any problems. We all bring enough production to keep transferred number of people in the same positions. I don't see any problem bringing SAS Commuter into the "family" as long as they bring along nessecary production to keep everyone with a job either. Although their production is "old" Braathens routes. One problem I do see is that Pfor is trying to keep this production as a "kombilist" production only. Meaning that ex Braathens pilots are not given the chance to bid captain positons on SAS commuter production in Norway whenever that chance may show up.
Again: ex Braathens pilots bring production and airplanes enough to keep us busy for years. We are not taking over, stealing any seats or creating any delays in any SAS pilot's career. On the contrary, we give you a healthy company (already a model for Danish and Swedish production) giving us a descent chance to fight low cost companies and give all of us a secure future.
(SAS pilots: take a look at the company and the results the last five years. Is it time to face the future?)

Kingsnake

G-buster (a good name for a hamfisted hard-landing yokel)

Your math sucks and your presentation of company results is downright naive.

During a 5 day block a SAS pilot will usually hit max CAA duty limit in 4 days.

In 2004 SAS pilots in SAS Norway were cheaper per blockhour due to higher productivity than Braathens pilots. This according to your local CEO.
How does this fact fit your portrait of SAS pilots as money wasting layabouts?

Since you so vehemently oppose passive transfer are you also advocating that no Norwegian pilots fly longhaul out of Copenhagen and Stockholm?

You also keep describing SASBraathens as somehow seperate from the rest of SAS. Forget it. SASBraathens is a jet company flying in and out of Scandinavia and as such is covered by PFOR scope clause. The Norwegian market is a part of SAS and therefore our turf.

Go ahead and wail. I´ll look forward to seeing you waste the rest of your lives about how you got screwed, and I´ll make it my personal business to choose OSLO next year as captain.

Timilu

Check in CPH 45 min. prior departure P to OSL, 1:15 to OSL, meet FO in OSL, plan 4 legs...that´ll all take let´s say an hour and a half to be conservative.. Time spent until first departure out of OSL: 3½ hours! Still leaves me 9 hours of production on the first day. Same goes for last day.
Whats the problem G-buster?? I´ll still have plenty of opportunity to deliver my 45 hour max.
Seems that simple math is not your strong side either.

Oh, and don´t get me started on why BU has been in the black for a while, and who "owned" what production!! We´ve discussed that extensively before, and still BU guys haven´t understood exactly WHY BU suddenly managed black numbers on the bottomline. But everyone in SAS knows, we´ve seen how you´ve been handed things on a silverplate since you were rescued.