Brown Job

OK I accept the specific example I gave may lead to people getting grief.

However, the point I was trying to make was that this system is barking mad, and impossible to police. Define 'reasonable'. In today's climate, people often don't eat meals in the traditional way - b'fast lunch dinner (how do you think all those fast-food places around MoD for example are busy all day?). People may only have time for several small snacks and these may add up to the total without producing any receipts at all.

On the subject of the 5 hours/£21 thing, I was informed today that you can't claim for a newspaper/phonecall unless you are out overnight. Not sure why this is - I normally read the papers in the mess at lunchtime, and figured (wrongly it seems) that the Service would allow me to do the same when out on duty.

Last thing for today: who is collecting data to find out what people are actually spending? It's simple to find out what people are CLAIMING, but shouldn't the system actually record the full costs even if they are over the allowance (but pay only the max allowed)? I can see that in 12-mths time, some shiney-arsed t@sser lloking at all the claims and seeing that the average claimed is below the max allowed. QED, the rate can be reduced! Cynical? Moi?

Night Night

STH

From experience (oh it is late ;-) )
 

STH,

You can only claim for the overnight subsistence OS ( newspaper/laundry/3 min phone call) and breakfast when you are away over night. the Daily subsistence DS covers you for lunch and dinner, there is no individual rate for lunch and dinner. As long as you are on the ground for at least 5 hours (better than the old system), you can claim DS. I think that you may also be able to claim IE (incidental expenses, £5 per day in UK, ££10 per day o/seas) as long as it is not sport etc (but worth checking).

Personally I have just been overseas on det for two weeks, and trying to complete the paperwork is a nightmare; it encourages fraud, because as numerous people have already stated, any item under £5 does not need a receipt; a few Big Mac's will do it.

If the MOD want to save money, just reduce the money that we are entitled to (when overseas as the money that we get in UK is barely adequate), and allow us to spend it as we want to.

39 days to go
 

I am now 101 days in to my det with 39 left to go. Have I been paid my LSA/LSSA/whatever the hell its now called? Hell no!

What have I done about it I hear you all asking. Apart from having the Army Sgt Maj, RN Cpt and Army Brigadier ringing the UK every week since I have been here, not a lot. We were all assured that the allowances had been put in to the system and it should turn up in my account in my next pay packet. Hmm, still no money.

Ah, so now the only person who can access my JPA account is me over the phone. So I do this to be told, once I conveyed to the (not too bothered) civvy which allowance I was talking about, it will take 10 days to find out what is going on.

"10 days?" says I - "Well I have lasted 100 without being paid so 10 more won't make a huge difference." Water off a duck's back I tell thee.

No idea if my letter of complaint signed by a 1 star will help or not but its worth a try.

Oh, and incase I didn't say, 100 days worth of allowances here is 3,700 pounds.

It would appear that putting things on paper and into the chain is the only way ahead. Phone calls and emails don't seem to be working, or registering within the complaints system - ergo, the Command can happily ignore them, as they are not "official". Rest assured that the RN will be going paper-official as soon as it goes wrong for any of us - we are looking and learning!

Confidence in the system is not good, with less than 120 days before we get it.

How are you supposed to go on line or call the complaints desk when you're at sea?

Mrs Tar and her three children starve for lack of funds while A.B. Tar is incommunicado for three months in his steel tube under the oggin?

Most ships have connectivity via SCOT these days, but not on a continuous basis (unless you are on one of those lightweight carrier things - you should hear the whining when email goes down on there!). Making official calls via Inmarsat could get a little expensive as well!

Subs - there is a routine for comms out, but not if they are op-deployed.

Of course, under DPA the wife/partner is not entitled to phone the Help Desk and enquire about her husband's pay.....when Mrs Tar is cutting the Boss' b@llocks of with a rusty knife, they may reassess this side of the equation!

The issue with formal grievance procedure is surely that foisting a thoroughly maddening software package, combined with a 700 page re-write of the relevant regulations, on the entire RAF is not necessarily grounds for complaint against an individual, especially as it's agreed policy to do so.

Perhaps it's poor project management.....? No doubt the NAO will be taking a look in due course.

Redress
 

Having jumped ship last week I assume I can no longer submit a redress? (unless anyone knows different maybe?). While the amount isnt vast (approx £450 in rent/council tax removed from my pay after having handed quarter back) i have sent an email with the facts and amounts debited to the Stn Cdr at my former unit along with the information that i will be pursuing him/the RAF through the small claims court unless the money (plus costs) is received in my bank account by 30 Jun 06. This should then give him some ammunition to take to the AOC maybe?
PSF (bless them) have tried to sort it but the attitude displayed by JPAC back office/DE (DHE as was) is absolutley abysmal. Both seem to be denying any responsibility for correcting it and saying its up to the other to sort it. F:mad: g imbiciles....

A message in a bottle? (sorry, I'll get my coat)

Reading the papers today, I was surprised to note that the Comical Ali mouthpiece for JPA hadn't received a gong...thought it was standard for MoD c0ck-ups, this must be a bad one! :}

When will this wonderful system be rolled out to pay the wages and claims of senior civil servants and MPs?

DOES THIS REASSURE ANYONE...?
 

FROM HOUSE OF LORDS, 14 JUNE:

"
Ministry of Defence: Joint Personnel Administration System

Lord Garden asked Her Majesty's Government:

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Drayson): On 20 March 2006, the Armed Forces Personnel Administration Agency (AFPAA) rolled out joint personnel administration (JPA) to 48,000 RAF service personnel throughout the world, on time and on budget. The event marked the culmination of five years' system design, development, integration and testing and bears testimony to a very strong partnering agreement between MoD and EDS.

14 Jun 2006 : Column WA31


The current estimated total cost of the JPA project, including costs preceding full development and also its initial period of in-service operation through to the end of financial year 2008-09, covering both MoD and extramural costs, is £269 million. JPA is expected to deliver savings in excess of £100 million per year when fully in service.
On JPA rollout to the RAF, there were a number of technical issues which had not manifested in the extensive testing carried out prior to its launch. These resulted in the system operating much more slowly than anticipated which greatly restricted the number of self-service users at any one time. Over the course of the following six weeks these early problems were overcome and users have had access to the full system functionality since 18 May.
JPA performed satisfactorily on rollout to RAF professional HR administrators and has successfully delivered pay to the RAF with only relatively few discrepancies in the first month and many less in the second. Although the first few weeks following roll-out have resulted in a significant number of inquiries and requests for rectification of problems from individual users, as well as some 14 pieces of ministerial correspondence on behalf of constituents, as at 9 June there have been no formal grievances from individual users about JPA.
In order to ensure alignment of JPA with defence information infrastructure (future) programme requirements, current plans are that JPA will be rolled out to the RN from October 2006 and to the Army from March 2007."

Some one please tell me where the "formal grievances" button is on JPA PLEASE!!!!!

(Not of course that it will make any difference as when I try to enter the details it will just come up with SYSTEM ERROR, as it does every time I try to put in an expense claim at the moment.)

System Error
 

JTIDS,

This may or may not help but I was suffering the same dreaded message when trying to put in a claim and have found one cause.

Now, bear in mind that there's an Oracle database at the heart of this thing, for the 'Auth' reference I had spaces but decided to try underscores instead & bingo I was in (still ended being audited & a policy violator though).

Hope this helps some.

Surely that should be 'many fewer in the second'? Forget that we are not being paid, I think that the quality of English language usage in the 'New Labour' House of Lords is indicative of the state of the nation :rolleyes:

Birthday Honours?
 

I notice that Gp Capt Sue Bonell AFPAA received an OBE in the birthday honours. Anyone know what for? Couldn't possibly be JPA could it? Surely not!

GP CAPT BONNELL
 

She has been the AFPAA Transformation Team Leader in Preparation for JPA so prepared the Help Desk establishment and got the Agency ready for JPA - she had nothing to do with the application itself.

"prepared the Help Desk..." - I assume this means that she was i/c mouse mat procurement rather than staff selection, training, etc?

However, reading this thread it appears that the phrase "help desk" has one incorrect word in it, and it isn't desk. Not much assistance seems to have been given by those on said desk.

Oh for God's sake airborne_artist, since when has it mattered whether your project works or is any good, compared to what you make influential people think?

If the RAF did all that it claimed, we'd be fcuking deadly!

Sorry Dallas, I'm no longer paid by Betty. I'm self-employed - if it doesn't work I don't get paid. Forgot that office/career politics is so much more important than completing the task on time and on budget.

Dallas, you see that is where all the upper echelons have gone wrong. Instead of doing a complete and competent job, they just do the veneer, not worrying about the underneath.

If it looks good I'll get the promotion/Honours etc...!!

All the lower echelons have been forced into the change culture, about time. Lets apply it Air Force wide and LEAN the upper echelons too, I'd like to see how they stand under the scrutiny. :ok:

Koalas the lot of them. :ugh:

Redefinition
 

A cynic might say that "never has so much been owed to so many by so few".

Probably not true though...

Other Buggers Effort
 

No the Comms team designed and procured the mouse mat, mobile phone holder and key ring tag with contact details etc - SHE was the staff training etc.

Almost_done.

nice post
short, to the point and on target.
if only.................

Ah good old JPA, I have recieved an extra £40ish this month for GYH?????

Intresting amount/allowance seeing as I have never claimed it, wanted nor needed it. :ugh:

Can't wait to see the next months pay packet....lol minus £400 for over issue of GYH :sad:

That'll be mine - mine stopped in Apr (when we switched to JPA) and the Help Desk hasn't been much help! They keep referring me back to the unit clerks - those will be the unit clerks we cut to be able to pay for JPA and the JPAC help desk then! :ugh:

This month I (so far) have no online pay packet. My colleagues do which is a bit worrying. After my daily chat with JPAC the chap finally decided that having an SR open for almost 2 months ref missing pay was too much...then admitted he had no idea what else I could do as his supervisor had been 'engaged' for most of the day.

I've put in over 80 hours effort this past week (ground tour..busy undermanned desk) and I just want paid...Redress is being bandied about at the moment...I have some faith in this process to acheive success but what of the aftermath? I'm not really a fan of hanging my testalia out to dry! Writing to any MP seems to be just a waste of printer ink...Senior officers admit they are out of the loop and that official avenues should be investigated i.e. JPAC.

Anyone got any fresh ideas??

I thought I heard this morning that Oracle have just announced a $700 million profit. Nice to see someone benefit from the chaos that is JPA.

Vim_Fuego,
try this, write direct to the chairperson of the Armed Forces Pay Review Board (her name is in the first few pages of the AFPRB 06-07 and send it c/o house of Lords). I did this a couple of years ago regarding the payment of FRI's. Both myself and PSF couldn't get any answers through the offical channels, didn't want to redress, so I wrote direct. Within 7 days I had OC PSF on the phone telling me I shouldn't have writen the letter but also giving me the answers to the questions I had been waiting for, for the last 15months.

The chairman of the AFPRB is now Professor David Greenaway, His website is here

Vim Fuego,
You are entitled to go to OC Accts Flt and, with the evidence in hand that you have not been paid, you can request a manual payment.

Thanks for your efforts...
Kev Nurse...That is my next step as soon as I see I have not been paid correctly again.
For all NCA who's flying pay wrong...if you are on the upper level but are only getting the middle band check the NEW JPA rules for paying the upper level....Shocking!

I cannot verify this until monday but I'm fairly/definately sure that the law has changed to 18 years served (for upper rate) of which minimum 9 (and you can put money on it being from substansive) as NCA.
This obviously affects the many re-treads that follow this career path. I'm told that if you were getting the upper rate they will eventually honour it...
If you were about to get it and don't fit the new criteria then you'll have to wait that bit longer....:sad:

High rate.
 

Vim and other interested parties. I qualify for high rate although most of my career to date, spent as a groundie. Lost some money in the high rate - middle rate faff last month, but have been assured that it will return this month. Simply the fact that JPA does not recognise 18 years as the higher rate start point!
I'll wait until the re-payment is in the bank until I am a believer!!

Well, the Sunday Express has got a hold of this today (25 June) and its their front page headline

ANGER AS OUR BOYS GO UNPAID.

The storyline tells of log-in woes, messed up pay, problems getting access, and a bunch of soundbite quotes taken from (ahem) internet forums :p
There's even the tale of a girly recruit at RTS Halton who wasn't paid and didn't have the £2 neeeded to get her kit washed (bless).
And from the offcial reply...

"Blah, new system, a few minor problems blah, areas that could be better, no greater problems than we had previously":rolleyes:

Rather predictable really.

Mind you, seeing as the Express group of papers seems hell bent on making a complete arse of itself as 90% of it other headlines relate to the death of Princess Diana, I'm not sure that having them onside regarding JPA is a help or a hindernace.

Had a slightly puzzling experience on Friday afternoon with JPA...

Midway through last month, not long after the b____y system started being accessible, the second thing I did on it was to fill out my posting preferences; looked at them since and all was OK. Checked them on Friday, as a mate only found out his posting (on promotion) when he stumbled across his employment location, and noticed the difference. (PSF didn't even know apparently!) Anyway, on checking my preferences, I found that the whole section had been completely erased, and certainly not by me.

Could anyone with a bit of knowledge suggest why, or has anyone else seen this? Bit of a bugger as I'm waiting on the results of a promotion board, and assuming I would be successful, that lack of data could have seen me go anywhere! (probably would have done anyway!)

JG

Spin, no real answer, deceit or lies?

In the piece in the Sunday Express, the MOD spokesman, a serving senior officer, rather than just saying that there were on-going problems and that the system was working hard to sort them out asap came up with dross.

"disgruntled people out there because it is a change" People are disgruntled because they have not been paid properly and there is no guarantee or timescale in which it will be sorted.

"It has not been as smooth as perhaps we would have liked but it has only been three months" Nothing to do with as we would have liked - Why not as well as we had expected and tried to ensure - Beta testing with salaries is inexcusable.

Äs far as I am aware, we are not incurring any greater problems with pay than we had previously" Really!!!!! Is this spin or based on a bit of homework? Prove it with stats. In three decades I have known individuals to have the occassional problem with allowances but very rarely with basic salary.

These are the sort of quotes I have come to expect from spin doctors not leaders. It's time leaders of this sort reviewed where their duties lie.

Hmm, squadron tea bar perhaps? Or maybe they'd f:mad: k that up as well!

This is the conversation that should have happened at media control central:

"You want me to say what to the papers? I think not Sir, I'll ring my poster on Monday."

Not:

"Absolutely sir, the Microsoft defence will work every time - blame the users for not knowing how to use an already flawed and under performing system. I'm sure no-one will worry about me calling them imbeciles and luddites. Promotion sir? I'd be delighted."

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

It's called integrity, something this particular Senior Officer clearly has little of.

Then again CAS thinks JPA is a good example of NEC in non-operational systems - if that's the case God help us when we get NEC in operational systems.

The story is now being run by the Telegraph. Clearly all the journo has done is read and quote this august forum :8