Understood. I had close association with prediction of contamination in two roles: as S Met O UKWMO Fiskerton and Horsham, later managing the planned response to accidents with ships/ boats , nuclear power plants and weapons in transit. Very clever science and I was taught by very clever scientists. We always checked our calculations again and again .................
HOWEVER there is another sort of fallout: political ............ Turkey is a bit close for example. And the media storm after a bang would ignore any announcement of "minimal". Russia sort of got away with Chernobyl because it was deemed an accident, but any deliberate release would, I think, have profound local political consequences. |
Go-pro footage of ejection from Su-25. Must be a first?
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFoota...eb2x&context=3 |
https://www.netcost-security.fr/actu...-monde-entier/
Damaged European submarine cables impact internet connectivity worldwide Several undersea cables in the south of France were cut overnight, rendering internet access globally unreliable. Engineers have fixed a broken link and investigations are still ongoing. Russian submarines have been blamed for the Ukrainian conflict, but investigators have yet to find evidence to support this hypothesis. On Wednesday evening, a serious incident involving an undersea cable in the south of France caused widespread internet connectivity problems. At least three fiber optic cables were cut at 8:30 p.m. (UTC), slowing internet access for users in Europe, Asia and the United States. Cloud companies quickly worked to fix the backbone. According to a report by cloud security firm Zscaler, the unexpected cable damage resulted in packet loss and increased latency for websites and applications traversing the impacted paths. The company has identified three broken links: Marseille-Lyon, Marseille-Milan and Marseille-Barcelona. Zscaler has made routing adjustments to internet traffic where possible to mitigate the issue. However, in some cases actions were hampered by app and content providers who were still using the severed links. In a subsequent update released at 1:03:15 UTC, Zscaler confirmed that workers had fixed one of the affected links, resulting in lower packet loss and reduced latency for websites and internet apps. The remaining links (probably Marseille-Milan and Marseille-Barcelona) were confirmed cut by direct fiber tests. However, search operations to find the damaged points of the submarine cable are still in progress…. |
Lawn dart arrival….
NEW: Footage of a Su-34 crashing into a two-story building in Irkutsk, Russia |
More Aviation content.
SU-25 Ejection, Pilots eye view. Something lopped off a major part of the tail fin and the rear of the aircraft is on fire. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....5443e74a72.jpg |
Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 11318498)
Lawn dart arrival….
NEW: Footage of a Su-34 crashing into a two-story building in Irkutsk, Russia Thought twin engine aircraft are inherently safer than single engine aircraft. Maybe, not in RU. |
Originally Posted by petit plateau
(Post 11318319)
If you go and read the NATO articles you will definitely find that it specifically excludes the vast majority of the colonial posessions of all NATO countries, precisely so as to not make NATO Art 5 hostage to foreign adventures during the retreat from empire phase. I'm not 100% certain where the vestigial pieces stand wrt NATO articles - I'm thinking for example of Gibraltar (UK); Guantanamo (USA); or the various French DoMs and ToMs, but there are many more - and I think they mostly remain technically excluded from Art 5 matters.
Turning to the example you repeat of (say) Poland committing military forces into Ukraine thereby becoming a co-belligerent, and then being on the receiving end of Russian responses in Poland itself, I think that too is excluded from Art 5. If NATO collectively were to intervene - for whatever reason - then that would be a different matter. However any individual NATO-state voluntarily becoming a co-belligerent I believe puts itself outside Art 5 for this purpose. This is precisely why NATO as a whole is taking a qualitatively cohesive stance on this conflict. How is it that you read the NATO articles dfferently ? (I think the various Iraq and Afghanistan episodes you cite are qualitatively different in nature due to the invocation of UN resolutions, so I think they are a red-herring in the current situation. Regrettably the UN structures suffer from the same drawbacks as the League Of Nations in the limit.) The adjective belligerent is "hostile and aggressive". A party defending another's right to exist in the face of an aggressor nation conducting an illegal war "Special Military Operation" is not a belligerent. If you defend your family from an intruder, do you refer to yourself as a belligerent? The noun belligerent, which you are using is "a nation or person engaged in war or conflict, as recognized by international law." As Russia went out of their way to commit criminal acts, and has not declared a war, I think using the term belligerent while correct in a war is somewhat inappropriate for a country undertaking self defence against a criminal act, and that would include any country assisting in the collective defence of the victim. "Belligerent" has connotations of aggression in all uses. If Russia can call a criminal act an SMO, I see no reason not to call Ukraine a defender and those countries that support Ukraine co defenders. The UN Charter permits collective defence, what that may mean to NATO is anyones guess, but Poland and presumably Estonia if they get involved within Ukraine would make that an interesting question for Vlad to sleep on. An attack of Belarus itself is high stakes, and would come with baggage. assisting Ukraine repeal the uninvited crime would be consistent with the UN Charter and a response directly against the country concerned would be a guessing game for Vlad as to where NATO may draw a line. So far he has been drawing blanks on his assumptions of world response to his summer vacation plans. Should you wish to double cross this bride, you can PM me and we can take the discussion off line. Any assumption that NATO may not not respond assists Vlad, and I don't consider that appropriate in light of his barbaric actions with Ukraine and even his own citizens. |
Russian column runs into Ukrainian armour on the road
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Another view of the lawn dart. Unless they got out at altitude they didn’t get out at all in that attitude and at that rate of descent…
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Originally Posted by fdr
(Post 11318518)
P2:
The adjective belligerent is "hostile and aggressive". A party defending another's right to exist in the face of an aggressor nation conducting an illegal war "Special Military Operation" is not a belligerent. If you defend your family from an intruder, do you refer to yourself as a belligerent? The noun belligerent, which you are using is "a nation or person engaged in war or conflict, as recognized by international law." As Russia went out of their way to commit criminal acts, and has not declared a war, I think using the term belligerent while correct in a war is somewhat inappropriate for a country undertaking self defence against a criminal act, and that would include any country assisting in the collective defence of the victim. "Belligerent" has connotations of aggression in all uses. If Russia can call a criminal act an SMO, I see no reason not to call Ukraine a defender and those countries that support Ukraine co defenders. The UN Charter permits collective defence, what that may mean to NATO is anyones guess, but Poland and presumably Estonia if they get involved within Ukraine would make that an interesting question for Vlad to sleep on. An attack of Belarus itself is high stakes, and would come with baggage. assisting Ukraine repeal the uninvited crime would be consistent with the UN Charter and a response directly against the country concerned would be a guessing game for Vlad as to where NATO may draw a line. So far he has been drawing blanks on his assumptions of world response to his summer vacation plans. Should you wish to double cross this bride, you can PM me and we can take the discussion off line. Any assumption that NATO may not not respond assists Vlad, and I don't consider that appropriate in light of his barbaric actions with Ukraine and even his own citizens. I would like to hope UN applies, but that hope died stillborn back in 1945 when circumstances meant that the same problems as bedevilled the League Of Nations were baked in. |
Originally Posted by MAINJAFAD
(Post 11318505)
More Aviation content.
SU-25 Ejection, Pilots eye view. Something lopped off a major part of the tail fin and the rear of the aircraft is on fire. https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1584128393510952960 https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....5443e74a72.jpg |
Originally Posted by FUMR
(Post 11318169)
I said "a severe response from NATO countries" and not a severe NATO response. And the very reason I stated it that way is probably because at the back of my mind I always tend to dismiss the French and the Italians! ;) However, I remain hopeful that the majority would band together with a suitable military response.
Originally Posted by petit plateau
I think you've now sussed out the point. If a party elects to become a co-belligerent then NATO Art 5 no longer applies.
As to the 101st Airborne/Air Assault Division A total of 4,700 soldiers from Fort Campbell, Kentucky, the home base of the 101st Airborne, have been sent to strengthen NATO’s eastern flank. The “Screaming Eagles” leaders repeatedly stated that while they are in the region to defend NATO territory, they are completely prepared to cross the border into Ukraine if the combat intensifies or if a NATO country comes under attack. Their deployment began in August, with a couple thousand deployed to Romania then. I'd be interested to find out how many battalions of Blackhawks, and other helicopters, made the trip. |
Blaming us darstardly Machiavellian Brits again. Brings tears of pride to my eyes….
Doubtless why Shoygu called Wallace this afternoon…. RIA Novosti: According to "credible sources in Ukraine and various other countries", Ukraine is preparing a provocation on the territory of its country using a "dirty bomb" or "low-yield nuclear weapon." "Kyiv has already begun the practical implementation of this plan." https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....5bc7af6992.png |
Originally Posted by Just This Once...
(Post 11318569)
The second impact from a MANPAD (long range shot, missile PBO) whilst the pilot is still decelerating under drogue and with his stricken aircraft flashing past him, has to be the most remarkable video sequence I can ever recall.
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So we mobilise your son, he gets killed in Ukraine, we then break into your house and demand money for his funeral…
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Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 11318595)
Blaming us darstardly Machiavellian Brits again. Brings tears of pride to my eyes….
Doubtless why Shoygu called Wallace this afternoon…. RIA Novosti: According to "credible sources in Ukraine and various other countries", Ukraine is preparing a provocation on the territory of its country using a "dirty bomb" or "low-yield nuclear weapon." "Kyiv has already begun the practical implementation of this plan." |
Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 11318595)
Blaming us darstardly Machiavellian Brits again. Brings tears of pride to my eyes….
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Originally Posted by petit plateau
(Post 11318568)
I think you've now sussed out the point. If a party elects to become a co-belligerent then NATO Art 5 no longer applies.
I would like to hope UN applies, but that hope died stillborn back in 1945 when circumstances meant that the same problems as bedevilled the League Of Nations were baked in. |
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