Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 11242058)
https://warontherocks.com/2022/05/wo...on-in-ukraine/
WOULD WE DO BETTER? HUBRIS AND VALIDATION IN UKRAINE |
Originally Posted by WideScreen
(Post 11242009)
Yep, it's a shame. How can we help them to speed up, a bit ?
I do see three major issues: - The whole government crew just came fresh into power, full of ideological rhetoric, which they need to drop and get "back to earth". This takes time, a lot. The nuclear energy ban among their green followers seems to have dissolved much faster. - The country did set up a law-system after WW2, largely forbidding everything related to army/war, making it cumbersome to act. - Potential a large spread out of Putin/FSB ties all over the place, making everybody hesitating to convince themselves and their surroundings to do more than some words. Putin bristles over the UF being given any extended range systems, while he invaded a sovereign nation with over 180,000 troops, 2,500 ballistic and cruise missiles, and as yet not a single window pane has been broken in his Krimmin. And the West worries about not "offending" him? Putin is an offensive, criminal, heading up a criminal gang that has pillaged Russia for 22 years in the continuous abuse of the Russian citizens, a long-established tradition of abuse going back to pre-Tzarist Russia. He has amassed a fortune by plundering the future of his nation, and now throws the nation's youth into a meat grinder of his egotistic discretionary war, that risks global famine that will be forever linked to his name and the shame that is Russia's for acquiescing to this evil git. the risks exist from him and him alone, and the choice is whether the west supports courageous efforts to suppress Putins outrageous behavior, or defers it to Polish, German and Baltic lands in the near future. Now it is inconceivable that Russia has the conventional forces to push westwards anytime soon, and I suspect that as the new North Korea, that will take a while to change, but being subservient to the conventional threat merely emboldens his nuclear threats following on later. So, Germany, France, decide where you want the war fought, within Ukraine or on your land, those are the stark choices should appeasement occur, which is a short step from worrying about "offending" a murderous sociopath bent on hegemony. "In my humble opinion...", E&OE |
Originally Posted by beardy
(Post 11242110)
Thank you for this illuminating article. It shows an enlightened analysis, but I think doesn't give enough emphasis to the commitment and motivation of the troops on the ground. They represent a crucial component of the success or failure of any tactic or strategy.
The risks for Ukraine are still real, and their troops are dying daily in the action to evict Putin and his minions from their land. Their overall position in the NE is serious, but then RF have to be thinking about the fact they may well have a large force about to be cut off on the west side of the Dnieper, they have two readily interdicted supply lines across the Dnieper that can be stopped readily by the Ukrainians from their current position, and that leaves the RF west of the Dneiper completely at risk. This is a vicious war being fought, and not much turns out as planned; the last reported Russian Su-25 downing did end up being a Su-27 of the UF brought down by a blue-on-blue event. A small tragedy in the middle of an immense tragedy. while all eyes are on the East and the bits west of Kerson, there is the following RFS floating about...The Ivan Gren class, Russian designation Project 11711
Ropucha Project 775
About time US-flagged:} grain ships went in and picked up cargo in Odessa.... |
Dmitri Medvedev just posted on his Telegram account his thoughts of Ukrainians. He is actually announcing the genocide of Ukrainian people as his goal.
And this from the former president of Russia, current deputy chairman of the Russian Security Council. A mein kampf moment.
Originally Posted by Dmitri Medvedev
"I am often asked why my Telegram posts are so harsh.
The answer is I hate them. They are bastards and geeks. They want death for us, Russia. And while I'm alive, I will do everything to make them disappear." https://t.me/medvedev_telegram/105 |
Originally Posted by Beamr
(Post 11242140)
Dmitri Medvedev just posted on his Telegram account his thoughts of Ukrainians. He is actually announcing the genocide of Ukrainian people as his goal.
And this from the former president of Russia, current deputy chairman of the Russian Security Council. A mein kampf moment. |
Originally Posted by langleybaston
(Post 11241752)
Just to clarify, which states are considered to be Europe's finest please?
Originally Posted by fdr
(Post 11242126)
So, Germany, France, decide where you want the war fought, within Ukraine or on your land, those are the stark choices should appeasement occur, which is a short step from worrying about "offending" a murderous sociopath bent on hegemony.
For beardy: well said, and that squares with the old adage about "the moral is to the physical as three is to one". Johnson's piece and what's going on in Ukraine reminds me of the Middle East a little bit. As a general thought based on many sources over the years: a lot of the troops there are much better in the defensive than in the offensive. (I am leaving the Israelis out of this). |
Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 11242058)
https://warontherocks.com/2022/05/wo...on-in-ukraine/
WOULD WE DO BETTER? HUBRIS AND VALIDATION IN UKRAINE Also a thought worth pondering: if the Iraqis had had drones and eyes-in-the sky in 2003, how much higher would the butcher's bill have been? One cannot know the answer to that, but it's a question one must address if one is a leader in the Western armies whose "casualty aversion' (which really came to prominence during the 90's in the US) is an embedded assumption. A few other points worth bringing up from that link: At the beginning of the war, Russia’s active-duty personnel and major weapons systems allocated to the invasion significantly outnumbered that of Ukraine almost two-to-one. Accurate casualty and materiel loss data is difficult to obtain, particularly from Ukraine, where the data is understandably considered a national secret. Nevertheless, if the numbers being reported by each combatant are in the ballpark, then these running estimates show both sides are suffering significant levels of attrition, most importantly in personnel. If this is true, then Ukraine is potentially in serious trouble if the war continues much longer. His thesis is that U.S. policymakers and senior military officers believe that the “use of force in situations of optional intervention should be prepared to sacrifice even operational effectiveness for the sake of casualty avoidance” and that in the war against Serbia, “force protection was accorded priority over mission accomplishment.” To support this conclusion, Record cites then-Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Hugh Shelton to support this conclusion: “The paramount lesson learned from Operation Allied Force is that the well-being of our people must remain our first priority.” As it did for Russia, it could happen to us, and we need to fully understand what “it” is. |
Originally Posted by fdr
(Post 11241956)
|
Originally Posted by fdr
(Post 11242126)
I am amazed that they have done as much as they have so far, but time is of the essence. A day late and a dollar short will put an emboldened Putin on their doorstep (well, Poland's, Hungary, Moldova... and no matter how frustrating Hungary's ultra-right position has been they may regret that with a friend like Putin sitting in the lead of tanks parked in front of the Országház. Was never a big fan of the domino principle, it seemed far-fetched back in OTS, but, Putin has a stated intent, and that impacts Western Europe as it is presently drawn.
Putin bristles over the UF being given any extended range systems, while he invaded a sovereign nation with over 180,000 troops, 2,500 ballistic and cruise missiles, and as yet not a single window pane has been broken in his Krimmin. And the West worries about not "offending" him? Putin is an offensive, criminal, heading up a criminal gang that has pillaged Russia for 22 years in the continuous abuse of the Russian citizens, a long-established tradition of abuse going back to pre-Tzarist Russia. He has amassed a fortune by plundering the future of his nation, and now throws the nation's youth into a meat grinder of his egotistic discretionary war, that risks global famine that will be forever linked to his name and the shame that is Russia's for acquiescing to this evil git. the risks exist from him and him alone, and the choice is whether the west supports courageous efforts to suppress Putins outrageous behavior, or defers it to Polish, German and Baltic lands in the near future. Now it is inconceivable that Russia has the conventional forces to push westwards anytime soon, and I suspect that as the new North Korea, that will take a while to change, but being subservient to the conventional threat merely emboldens his nuclear threats following on later. So, Germany, France, decide where you want the war fought, within Ukraine or on your land, those are the stark choices should appeasement occur, which is a short step from worrying about "offending" a murderous sociopath bent on hegemony. "In my humble opinion...", E&OE Your suggestion of US flagged ships or some similar plan is what is needed and the west needs to park this Putin offending rubbish once and for all. |
Originally Posted by Timmy Tomkins
(Post 11242218)
Your suggestion of US flagged ships or some similar plan is what is needed and the west needs to park this Putin offending rubbish once and for all.
FWIW, posted about that here. Will check the news and see if there's a change to that. Here is an article covering this possible change in the state of play, and some of the worries/risks. The Russo-Turkish plan would allow for removal of mines near Odesa and guarantee safe passage for ships out of the Black Sea, under the auspices of the UN, the people said. Turkey, which has sought for months to mediate in the conflict, aims to set up a center in Istanbul to monitor and coordinate the shipments. Ukraine hasn’t participated directly in the talks, according to an official there. “By commenting in advance on reaching the deal, Russia is seeking to shift responsibility to Ukraine” for disrupting supplies, Taras Kachka, Ukraine’s Deputy Economy Minister, said in a text message. “But the fact remains that the food crisis has been artificially created by Russia and Russia alone.” Russia is also demanding the ability to inspect ships going to Ukraine for weapons, a condition Kyiv has resisted. |
Whoa, possible game-changer, Spain looking at providing 40 Leopard 2A4’s plus anti air missiles.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...e_systems.html |
Originally Posted by Kent Based
(Post 11242205)
Are these Chinese copies of the mosin-nagant?
All original Soviet factory made Mosin's, some freshly out of 60+ year storage. The Soviets/Russian's never scrap anything, they even still have storage facilities full of crated refurbed captured German K98k's that they put through Soviet factory rebuild programs in the late 40's and early 50's..... |
They are excellent weapons and I think rechambered to a larger round.
https://sofrep.com/news/the-mosin-na...s-well-better/ |
Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 11242242)
Whoa, possible game-changer, Spain looking at providing 40 Leopard 2A4’s
|
Originally Posted by GeeRam
(Post 11242247)
No.
All original Soviet factory made Mosin's, some freshly out of 60+ year storage. The Soviets/Russian's never scrap anything, they even still have storage facilities full of crated refurbed captured German K98k's that they put through Soviet factory rebuild programs in the late 40's and early 50's..... Where those local troops seems to have been short changed is in the all important aspect of training.
Originally Posted by dead_pan
Usual caveat applies i.e. if Germany agrees....
|
Originally Posted by GeeRam
(Post 11242247)
No.
|
No rush , the Russians will still be there next year .
It is a trap they cannot get out off without escalation. Fabius strategy in play . Be patient , death will come soon enough and all we can do is smile back . |
Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 11242248)
They are excellent weapons and I think rechambered to a larger round.
The major problem with the Mosin is the bolt design makes it very difficult to fire rapid (unlike, say, the Lee Enfield). |
Originally Posted by GeeRam
(Post 11242247)
No.
All original Soviet factory made Mosin's, some freshly out of 60+ year storage. The Soviets/Russian's never scrap anything, they even still have storage facilities full of crated refurbed captured German K98k's that they put through Soviet factory rebuild programs in the late 40's and early 50's..... |
Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan
(Post 11242290)
i think you'll find the question is tongue-in-cheek due to the typo "hoisin ". The habit of never scrapping any(thing doesn't work when the material stored requires maintenance/inspection which it doesn't get e.g; trucks with rotted tyres, tanks robbed of items that can be sold.
The M1891 was made by many different armories and manufacturers, even Remmington. Used by many countries. over more than a century, but it has one odd bolt action, and a 5 round stripper-fed fixed box mag. It was an effective sniper rifle even with the awkward bolt. China did use them, without Hoisin sauce. For a range day, they are fine but handing them out for LPR/DPR to reservists being required to lead assaults is either cynical or desperate. Surplus AK-47s abound, yet the troops are given (un-sauced) bolt action relics. Still, would be happy if they were giving out rail tickets to Moscow instead. |
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