China recruits former British military pilots
I'm no fan of the Saudis, but they are using precision-guided munitions that are being employed with Western planning and targeting procedures. Civilian casualties happen, but they're not by design. Now, contrast that with how China, Russia, etc wage war.
Also, in you're fixation with Saudi Arabia you're still missing the point that they are not a threat to the UK. China is.
Also, in you're fixation with Saudi Arabia you're still missing the point that they are not a threat to the UK. China is.
So, in your mind, it's morally OK to train someone who simply might kill women and children?
The reality is that war results in civilian deaths. I don't think for a second that China would care any more than the Russians, Saudis or any other regime that we have armed and trained, about killing civilians. In fact, it's quite likely that Chinese doctrine will call for attacks against the civilian population.
The reality is that war results in civilian deaths. I don't think for a second that China would care any more than the Russians, Saudis or any other regime that we have armed and trained, about killing civilians. In fact, it's quite likely that Chinese doctrine will call for attacks against the civilian population.
Also, like it or not the Saudi government is supported by the UK and US. Any of our pilots out in Saudi are supported and sanctioned by the UK. We are not likely to go to war with Saudi. The biggest point for me though is not at a government level. When you qualify as a Fast Jet pilot you join a club, to my mind that club includes the USA. If you subsequently go and train Chinese pilots (the clear enemy of one of our closest allies) you are betraying your mates.
Okay. Everyone here is assuming that this is about “operational training” and selling secrets about combat tactics, weapons systems and capabilities to the Chinese. That is, after all, the thrust of the reports from most of the media. I would make a couple of comments about that.
Firstly, how many “former RAF fast jet pilots” do any of you know that would even contemplate doing this? Remember, we’re looking for a cabal of 30 of them.
Second, the MoD announced that “they” haven’t broken the law. If this incident involved the disclosure of any classified information, that would most certainly NOT be the case.
Thirdly, “they” have been approached and allegedly contracted by a “company in South Africa.” That company appears to be TFASA - Test Flying Academy of South Africa. As their name suggests, they specialise in aircraft test flying (not in the league so ETPS, but accredited by both the CAA and EASA) NOT combat tactics, weapons systems and operational capabilities.
The reaction here is driven by the same attitude that leads some PPRuNE members to start speculating on air accidents before the safety investigation has even begun.
Wait for facts before making rash “judgements”. Either that or rush to the Daily Express comments pages and join the rabid mob crying out to have them sent to the Tower to have their heads chopped off.
Firstly, how many “former RAF fast jet pilots” do any of you know that would even contemplate doing this? Remember, we’re looking for a cabal of 30 of them.
Second, the MoD announced that “they” haven’t broken the law. If this incident involved the disclosure of any classified information, that would most certainly NOT be the case.
Thirdly, “they” have been approached and allegedly contracted by a “company in South Africa.” That company appears to be TFASA - Test Flying Academy of South Africa. As their name suggests, they specialise in aircraft test flying (not in the league so ETPS, but accredited by both the CAA and EASA) NOT combat tactics, weapons systems and operational capabilities.
The reaction here is driven by the same attitude that leads some PPRuNE members to start speculating on air accidents before the safety investigation has even begun.
Wait for facts before making rash “judgements”. Either that or rush to the Daily Express comments pages and join the rabid mob crying out to have them sent to the Tower to have their heads chopped off.
Also, like it or not the Saudi government is supported by the UK and US. Any of our pilots out in Saudi are supported and sanctioned by the UK. We are not likely to go to war with Saudi. The biggest point for me though is not at a government level. When you qualify as a Fast Jet pilot you join a club, to my mind that club includes the USA. If you subsequently go and train Chinese pilots (the clear enemy of one of our closest allies) you are betraying your mates.
In the good old days, it took twice as many O-levels to get in as an RAF Apprentice than it did as a pilot. Brainpower may not be what they are after.
I know of at least 6 recent Typhoon pilots that have done this. And they may well be just teaching flying and not tactics but they are still using their skills to make Chinese pilots better. Otherwise why would the Chinese pay for the service? They also have a fairly good understanding of current RAF front line tactics and numbers, including for AMRAAM. I am pretty sure the Chinese could extract these if they wanted to. (Though they probably know it all already)
That's a very rosy view of a pretty unsavoury regime, which routinely oppresses a big chunk of its indigenous population, and which has been a regular aggressor and destabilising influence in the region.
Reasonably sure that the majority of those who have taken this employment opportunity to help train the Chinese armed forces are conducting a prohibited act. The potential criminal disposal of such individuals is a little tenuous though - there is a legal thread that could be pulled by the CPS but it relies upon some rather weak legislation just to prove that this prohibited event is, in itself, criminal. Still, it is a thread that could be pulled but I highly doubt it and hopefully those who have taken their skills to China will have paid for suitable legal advice.
I am presuming all those exporting their military skills did so at least 2 years post-exit, as that rule applies to all officers on leaving (and is not unique to the Armed Forces). To date I am only aware of civil action against those who transgress the 2-year rule but it can be a rather expensive experience.
For the majority (perhaps all of them from what I understand) having left as 'retired officers' do continue to hold a commission. The line from the JSP to QRs (KRs) is clear and precise:
Either when directed by HM (aka 'Removal') or a 'granted' individual request for 'Resignation' post-service this equals the loss of all pension / gratuities / lump sum. In no way is this element a criminal conviction and it would not need to be disclosed; it is rather expensive though, given the value of a defined-benefit pension.
My best guess is that the MoD and Defence Council will limit its action to forfeiture of commission & pension for those who have taken this path to-date* with some tightening of legislation in the very near future. Anything else is just not worth the publicity and reputational damage.
(* There could be more specific criminal action for those who had particularly high security clearances, especially those read-in to US-owned compartments. The DoD (via DSS) owns that list and utilise the skills and reach of the FBI to investigate and indict.)
I am presuming all those exporting their military skills did so at least 2 years post-exit, as that rule applies to all officers on leaving (and is not unique to the Armed Forces). To date I am only aware of civil action against those who transgress the 2-year rule but it can be a rather expensive experience.
For the majority (perhaps all of them from what I understand) having left as 'retired officers' do continue to hold a commission. The line from the JSP to QRs (KRs) is clear and precise:
QR J2914 refers. Officers who leave regular service must not, so long as they continue to hold a commission, or to draw retired pay, enter the service of any government outside the UK, or organisation sponsored by such a government, or any international organisation, without the consent of the MOD.
Either when directed by HM (aka 'Removal') or a 'granted' individual request for 'Resignation' post-service this equals the loss of all pension / gratuities / lump sum. In no way is this element a criminal conviction and it would not need to be disclosed; it is rather expensive though, given the value of a defined-benefit pension.
My best guess is that the MoD and Defence Council will limit its action to forfeiture of commission & pension for those who have taken this path to-date* with some tightening of legislation in the very near future. Anything else is just not worth the publicity and reputational damage.
(* There could be more specific criminal action for those who had particularly high security clearances, especially those read-in to US-owned compartments. The DoD (via DSS) owns that list and utilise the skills and reach of the FBI to investigate and indict.)
Joking aside though, I'm assuming you're referring to the Palestinians when you talk about the "indigenous population", even though 'Palestine' was a British construct and that the Arabs who lived there were never an homogenous people or nation prior to the State of Israel being formed. Maybe if they accept peace (the Oslo Accord that they rejected gave them 95% of what they're now asking for) and stopped teaching their children from birth to aspire to murder Israelis at every chance they get, the Israelis might not feel the need to "oppress" them quite so much.
As to being an "aggressor", every war/action that Israel has fought has been one of defence. As for being a "destabilising influence", yes, I guess, in the same way that Ukraine is a destabilising influence in eastern Europe right now. All of its Muslim neighbours (and their apologists in the West) want to see the only Jewish country destroyed and its people "driven into the sea", but, of course, it's the Jews that are the problem.
I could go on, but I digress.
Last edited by melmothtw; 18th Oct 2022 at 15:15.
No one cares that they employ UK companies to teach their aerospace firms how to build better products. Why should they care about this? Being a better pilot doesn't really mean much in a crap aircraft as far as tactics are concerned.
The more important questions are, as it's been going on for some time (I remember a rumour here about french aircrew working for the Chinese - as well as Israel cooperation) why now, and who did it? First I saw was Deborah Haynes thread on Twitter late last night.
The more important questions are, as it's been going on for some time (I remember a rumour here about french aircrew working for the Chinese - as well as Israel cooperation) why now, and who did it? First I saw was Deborah Haynes thread on Twitter late last night.
No one cares that they employ UK companies to teach their aerospace firms how to build better products. Why should they care about this? Being a better pilot doesn't really mean much in a crap aircraft as far as tactics are concerned.
The more important questions are, as it's been going on for some time (I remember a rumour here about french aircrew working for the Chinese - as well as Israel cooperation) why now, and who did it? First I saw was Deborah Haynes thread on Twitter late last night.
The more important questions are, as it's been going on for some time (I remember a rumour here about french aircrew working for the Chinese - as well as Israel cooperation) why now, and who did it? First I saw was Deborah Haynes thread on Twitter late last night.
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They could always point out to them that they will never ever hold a UK airside permit again as they are now deemed a security risk.
Nutty
I’m pretty sure they all know that and have done their maths.
The rest of the collective teeth gnashing is ignoring the rather important issue that has been brought up several times in this thread already. MOD can say what they like but if those Typhoon pilots had been treated with respect, their families and work/life balance had been considered and they were paid appropriately (nobody expects £250,000 a year in the UK) they wouldn’t even be looking.
Shouldn’t we be collectively concerned that, for the first time in my lifetime, we have a world class pair of frontline platforms and nobody wants to stay and fly them?
As I keep saying though, ‘it’s not about money’!!
BV
The rest of the collective teeth gnashing is ignoring the rather important issue that has been brought up several times in this thread already. MOD can say what they like but if those Typhoon pilots had been treated with respect, their families and work/life balance had been considered and they were paid appropriately (nobody expects £250,000 a year in the UK) they wouldn’t even be looking.
Shouldn’t we be collectively concerned that, for the first time in my lifetime, we have a world class pair of frontline platforms and nobody wants to stay and fly them?
As I keep saying though, ‘it’s not about money’!!
BV
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Surely, if a Bill is yet to be passed, what has been done isn’t actually illegal.
Shaming them (no names shared so not really sure how that works...) isn't going to work. This'll be forgotten about by next week. When they come back, if they come back, they'll get a stern talking to by some nameless and humourless people and that'll be that.
It doesn't solve the key issues that likely convinced those aircrews to do that role and it doesn't solve why today...
It doesn't solve the key issues that likely convinced those aircrews to do that role and it doesn't solve why today...