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China recruits former British military pilots

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China recruits former British military pilots

Old 19th Oct 2022, 07:03
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Originally Posted by dctyke
I don’t know what astounds me more, ex RAF aircrew taking money to train Chinese aircrew on western tactics or people on here trying to defend it. There is no defence for what they are doing out there.
Meanwhile in Australia we export millions of tonnes of coal and iron ore to China. I am sure this would make a greater contribution to the military machine than that of a few handfuls of retired fast jet trainers.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 07:58
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In that same world, those guys look at the pilots who are only a few years ahead of them in the system who have nice houses and investment portfolios mainly because of luck with timing. They hear stories of the ‘good old days’ but cannot equate it to what is currently happening around them.

Morals and principles are all well and good. The generations before these guys can sit in their (mortgage free) nice houses with their BMW parked on the driveway and wax lyrical about how these guys are treasonous for heading East. Fast forward 30 years and these same guys, if they’d decided against it, might be sitting in their rented semi with a Vauxhall Astra parked on the driveway feeling morally superior but bloody miserable.
I take your point, but that's the same in every walk of life - the newer generation earning much less than their seniors, and having to listen to how much better things used to be back in the day (am sure 1950s RAF pilots were fed up to the back teeth of hearing from 'The Few'). Not sure we'd all run off to China, Russia etc at the first opportunity though. Or maybe we would, who knows?
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 08:26
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by melmothtw
I take your point, but that's the same in every walk of life - the newer generation earning much less than their seniors, and having to listen to how much better things used to be back in the day (am sure 1950s RAF pilots were fed up to the back teeth of hearing from 'The Few'). Not sure we'd all run off to China, Russia etc at the first opportunity though. Or maybe we would, who knows?
It's many walks of life it's "have qualification will travel" these days. Certainly on the civil side of aviation plenty of licence holders have "run off" to China in search of better money.

Wouldn't float my boat but it works for some.


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Old 19th Oct 2022, 08:26
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Originally Posted by zzuf
Meanwhile in Australia we export millions of tonnes of coal and iron ore to China. I am sure this would make a greater contribution to the military machine than that of a few handfuls of retired fast jet trainers.
That can be stopped.

CG
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 08:45
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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Are the ex-RAF pilots concerned all white and male? If so, does that vindicate CAS's courageous policy after all?
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 08:49
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Yawn

So the complaint is about... what exactly?
  1. The guys serve their country IAW their contract and their pledge of allegiance.
  2. They sign a little thing called the OSA, which is binding in perpetuity.
  3. After retirement, they are offered a job flying for another mob, instructing,
  4. They get paid for their service.
So, exactly... "what the problem is?"

Have they breached a term of their service or the OSA? If so, throw the book at them!
If they haven't, then exactly what is the issue?

Do bankers not work for, assist in profits etc of enterprises that are wholly owned by the PRC govt? Is making trillions of dollars for the PRC govt a lesser "sell out" than a guy walking out to a J-20 to go and teach a guy to fly?
Are they going to teach any factor that came out of SQN SOPs or out of the NATO/US/NOFORN tactics manuals? Would that not be a breach of the OSA and do we assume that they would breach the OSA for a handful of yuan?

PRC as a country has a relatively belligerent attitude to interests in the SCS area, ROK, and JPN. The breach of the UNCLOS by their actions in the SCS is an irritant, and if anyone has a right to object to EFA drivers playing around in Sanya or some other exotic part of PRC, it would be the countries around the SCS.

I changed airforces, as did probably 10% of my generation. In our cases, we went from using one set of tactics to using the same set of tactics with another paint job. There was no lessons learned asked for, and none were given, we drove the planes and taught as the new force required.

Can the guys teach new tactics based on what they had from the squadron SOPs? That is the bit that runs into a serious risk of breaches of the OSA, to which end the relevant states security service has every right to ask appropriate questions, including use of usual techniques to evaluate candid responses.

Does this make me happy to hear? Absolutely not. The RAF and various other defence forces fail to care for their assets which are their people, the engineers, operations and flight crew that make up the capability to do the job. Defence has a need to have a churn rate, there is a continuous training activity to maintain peak proficiency, which at least the US DOD recognised means to avoid losing the competency over time, by developing the reserves, which permit the war fighter to maintain his (or her) competency and capability to support his nation, and to give them a life that is reasonable, the DODs not being known for properly paying engineers, pilots or ops staff.


Last edited by fdr; 19th Oct 2022 at 10:36. Reason: her
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 08:52
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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The apologists for these pilots selling themselves to the PRC are either naive or complacent. Do you honestly think that the PRC is employing these people merely to learn how to fly a tidy yo-yo and that it will simply not occur to them to ask about Western TTPs and weapons capabilities? If they are paying £250k to these people, they are going to demand VFM, not BFM.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 09:01
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Originally Posted by Gordon Brown
The apologists for these pilots selling themselves to the PRC are either naive or complacent. Do you honestly think that the PRC is employing these people merely to learn how to fly a tidy yo-yo and that it will simply not occur to them to ask about Western TTPs and weapons capabilities? If they are paying £250k to these people, they are going to demand VFM, not BFM.
Short, to the point and absolutely spot on !
Anyone, anyone, who thinks these pilots are there just to teach basic fast jet flying in a country which operates supersonic fighters from a carrier, and aims to have the world’s largest military by 2040 or thereabouts, ( for what purpose, except world military and economic domination) is living in another world.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 09:06
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Originally Posted by Lookleft
Thats the problem. Is China an enemy or just a country with an aggressive foreign policy? Don't forget that the Me109 prototype flew with a Kestrel engine and the MiG 15 was developed around the copy of the RR Nene which was provided to the USSR.
Indeed! The latter with Stafford Cripps’agreement as President of the Board of Trade under Attlees’s government.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 09:14
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William Forbes-Sempill comes to mind.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 09:16
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Perish the thought, but I can't help wondering how many recently retired SSBN and SSN commanding officers are updating their CVs!

Jack
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 09:18
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Originally Posted by charliegolf
That can be stopped.

CG
Of course $100 billion of mineral export trade can be easily stopped.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 09:18
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Originally Posted by Barksdale Boy
Something about this whole story doesn't smell quite right to me.
Totally concur, we obviously don't want names but can anybody actually stump up a shred of evidence that any ex-UK military aircrew are directly training Chinese military aircrew at the operational or tactical conversion level ? It's simply an advert that includes our cadre in past experience spec.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 09:21
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Anyone, anyone, who thinks these pilots are there just to teach basic fast jet flying in a country which operates supersonic fighters from a carrier, and aims to have the world’s largest military by 2040 or thereabouts, ( for what purpose, except world military and economic domination) is living in another world.
You'll recall that when the Chinese bought the Riga aircraft carrier they said they wanted to turn it into a casino, only for it to later be commissioned into the PLAN as the Liaoning. The point being that whatever the Chinese might say about this RAF training scheme and how innocent it all is, you can be sure that from their perspective there's a lot more to it than that.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 09:32
  #155 (permalink)  

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The salary paid to these pilots comes from profits accrued by overseas sales of goods. As I hinted before, those throwing stones should think about the origin of consumer goods in their homes. I very much doubt that anyone contributing to this discussion can honestly say that there are no “Made in China” labels on items such as a TV, computer, modem, kettle etc in their home.

Before buying a ticket for the outrage bus, take a look in your own back yard and think about your own contribution to the China economic machine.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 09:33
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Are Bremont making them a bespoke watch yet?
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 09:36
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One has also to consider the timing and limited details of this "revelation". It seems likely to have come from a Government minister at a time when said government is getting a huge amount of negative publicity. This certainly seems to be distracting a few of the more rabid Daily Mail readers.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 10:09
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque
The salary paid to these pilots comes from profits accrued by overseas sales of goods. As I hinted before, those throwing stones should think about the origin of consumer goods in their homes. I very much doubt that anyone contributing to this discussion can honestly say that there are no “Made in China” labels on items such as a TV, computer, modem, kettle etc in their home.

Before buying a ticket for the outrage bus, take a look in your own back yard and think about your own contribution to the China economic machine.
As one of your keenest followers, I must say that whilst I understand the point you are making I am truly at a loss to see the logic in it. Sorry, Sir!

Jack
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 10:14
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Bob, As I have said before here - I enjoy your posts because you challenge the views of 'old farts' without resorting to insults. However your comment about sitting in our mortgage free nice houses does need challenging. You do not know our back stories but just assume, like so many younger people, that we were 'born with silver spoons in our mouths' and everything else just fell into our laps.

I do live in a lovely house with no mortgage and a Volvo V70 parked in my drive ( no German car for me - too uncomfortable! ) . My back story - 15 years in a SW London slum waiting for a council house ( my parents were on the waiting list for 18 years ), then after 4 years I was lucky enough to be commissioned in the RAF, which completely changed my life. No Gap Year, only one holiday to boast about before my children grew up, with mortgage rates up to 15% and never lower than 8% until the final years of my mortgage c2000. I paid a mortgage from 1970 until 2006 and at last feel I have a comfortable existence without one.

As for going to China - what would worry me the most is 'What if the s**t hits the fan?'. I can't see the Chinese letting them return home if things blow up with Taiwan, and yes I do think they are wrong to go.
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 10:31
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Originally Posted by Union Jack
As one of your keenest followers, I must say that whilst I understand the point you are making I am truly at a loss to see the logic in it. Sorry, Sir!

Jack
I simply point out that there are double standards here. Very few of us in the western world have not taken financial advantage from China by purchasing their cheaper consumer goods to the demise of our own industries.
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