Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Not-so-woke Reds

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Not-so-woke Reds

Old 13th Nov 2022, 14:21
  #241 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Baston
Posts: 2,852
Received 178 Likes on 86 Posts
Originally Posted by Finningley Boy
I never even hinted at all the emotional garbage above, but I expected it and I rather imagine Beardy's prompt was hoping for it.

FB
unsurptisingly I take your point .... you are wise enough not to deal in shrill absolutes. Anybody who cannot pick up some nuances in the discussion might just be a virtue signalling groper for example.


langleybaston is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2022, 14:28
  #242 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: UK
Age: 68
Posts: 1,353
Received 25 Likes on 15 Posts
Originally Posted by Finningley Boy
I never even hinted at all the emotional garbage above, but I expected it and I rather imagine Beardy's prompt was hoping for it.

FB
I asked why you didn't want to explain yourself. I didn't ask you for an explanation, but thank you for sharing your opinion.
beardy is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2022, 23:49
  #243 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 470
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
My Dad said to me as I was about to start work at 18, never mix business and pleasure. Good advice, always heeded.

WB627 is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2022, 11:29
  #244 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Welwyn Garden City
Age: 62
Posts: 1,757
Received 31 Likes on 19 Posts
Originally Posted by langleybaston
unsurptisingly I take your point .... you are wise enough not to deal in shrill absolutes. Anybody who cannot pick up some nuances in the discussion might just be a virtue signalling groper for example.
Exactly, its interesting how there are so many unexpected surprises sometimes. It seems to be the way of it now, you are either one extreme or the other, dare to ask a question or two about an incident which has got the woke brigade in full ceremony and you're looking at criminal charges almost. Alas, I fully expected the outraged reaction of some. It satisfies the very specific question Beardy asked, which it would appear I went too deep on, he just wanted a straight forward reason rather than further clarification of what I was alluding to, usually what people mean when they ask searching questions. But I've proved my point, the irrational over the top vilification!
Many thanks Sir,

FB
Finningley Boy is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2022, 09:11
  #245 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Age: 65
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
And another one

Sorry about the "newspaper" in the link!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ed-Forces.html
Thoughtful_Flyer is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2022, 09:21
  #246 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Age: 65
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Royal Air Force Aerobatics team - unacceptable behaviours statement

Following allegations from individuals within the RAF Aerobatics Team (The Red Arrows), an Inquiry was initiated that revealed a broad range of unacceptable behaviours.

The RAF Police Special Investigations Branch investigated specific allegations and whilst there were no criminal cases to be answered, we continue to look into the circumstances that led to the inquiry. To date, several RAF personnel have been investigated under the RAF’s Major Administrative Action Procedures. These investigations have resulted in a range of outcomes up to and including dismissals from the RAF.

The inquiry recommended a variety of measures to improve behaviours and culture on the unit. Many of these recommendations have already been implemented and all are being pursued as a priority. They included actions to improve understanding of what is and isn’t acceptable and how to stop unacceptable behaviours. The whole team has received extensive training on unacceptable behaviours and ‘Walk on By’ cultures. Additional training on unacceptable behaviours has also recently been implemented across the Royal Air Force.

The RAF commends the actions of all those who came forward to provide the inquiry and subsequent investigations with their evidence. It is important for unacceptable behaviour to be called out and reported wherever and whenever it is encountered. We take all allegations of unacceptable behaviour extremely seriously and will continue to take decisive action against anyone who fails to uphold our high standards, in accordance with the Ministry of Defence’s Zero Tolerance Policy.
Thoughtful_Flyer is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2022, 09:29
  #247 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: London
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes on 13 Posts
Originally Posted by Thoughtful_Flyer

Following allegations from individuals within the RAF Aerobatics Team (The Red Arrows), an Inquiry was initiated that revealed a broad range of unacceptable behaviours.

The whole team has received extensive training on unacceptable behaviours and ‘Walk on By’ cultures.
I hope the investigators identify the root cause. Seems like previous investigations (and there are a few to choose from), haven't.
Low average is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2022, 09:42
  #248 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Sussex
Age: 81
Posts: 4,678
Received 42 Likes on 14 Posts
Originally Posted by Thoughtful_Flyer
Sorry about the "newspaper" in the link!
No need to be. It has the highest circulation of all UK national dailies, over 920,000 at the last count. Unless of course you mean that the approx. 1M readers of it are greatly in error in doing so. In which case that is a personal opinion only and might be held equally by others of a different political persuasion to you about less successful papers. This default apology for links to the Daily Mail is becoming rather irritating. Either we apologise for every media link here or for none. If you want to link then do so. No need for an accompanying apology. If that's too much to ask, then don't post the link. Simples!

Oh, to avoid the wrath of the mods I'd better say something re the thread OP. My thoughts on the Reds are that they are an indulgence we can no longer afford. They should man the front-line squadrons or train others to do so. Some of the sentiments expressed here have been full of hubris and disdain for those of us who aren't/weren't FJ pilots. We are accused of jealousy and having a chip on our shoulders. More likely a case of pot calling kettle black I would suggest. We should all be concerned with what is best for the Royal Air Force and UK Air Power. I know I am.
Chugalug2 is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2022, 10:01
  #249 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Welwyn Garden City
Age: 62
Posts: 1,757
Received 31 Likes on 19 Posts
Originally Posted by Chugalug2
No need to be. It has the highest circulation of all UK national dailies, over 920,000 at the last count. Unless of course you mean that the approx. 1M readers of it are greatly in error in doing so. In which case that is a personal opinion only and might be held equally by others of a different political persuasion to you about less successful papers. This default apology for links to the Daily Mail is becoming rather irritating. Either we apologise for every media link here or for none. If you want to link then do so. No need for an accompanying apology. If that's too much to ask, then don't post the link. Simples!

Oh, to avoid the wrath of the mods I'd better say something re the thread OP. My thoughts on the Reds are that they are an indulgence we can no longer afford. They should man the front-line squadrons or train others to do so. Some of the sentiments expressed here have been full of hubris and disdain for those of us who aren't/weren't FJ pilots. We are accused of jealousy and having a chip on our shoulders. More likely a case of pot calling kettle black I would suggest. We should all be concerned with what is best for the Royal Air Force and UK Air Power. I know I am.
Well said Sir, but I disagree about disbanding the Red Arrows, they are still a prestigious asset, like the Queen's (should that now be King's?) Colour Squadron. The recent investigations haven't served them or the RAF well, but enough said.

FB
Finningley Boy is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2022, 12:01
  #250 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Sussex
Age: 81
Posts: 4,678
Received 42 Likes on 14 Posts
FB, thanks for the kind words and no problem with your disagreeing with me, which surely is in the nature of a conversation. We don't have to agree but should tolerate the views that we disagree with. This thread has wandered somewhat from that ideal, which tells you more about those who lack tolerance than it does about those whose views they oppose.

The great days of the Hendon Air Displays (and no, I wasn't around then to witness them!) was to make this nation 'air-minded'. I would suggest that the nation is very air-minded these days, given the increasing foot fall in our air terminals. It may be entertained by air displays, but it has plenty of evidence about the effects of Air Power on the TV news alone. Is it the job of the RAF to entertain or to more effectively confront those who oppose us? The other reason for Air Displays such as those of the Red Arrows is to aid recruitment. I can only refer to my own experience as a schoolboy CCF cadet. It was far more important to me to go solo in an Air Cadet glider than it was to watch an RAF aerobatic team display. If you want to recruit, then invest more in the Air Cadets and give them back their gliders!

But all this is thread drift (there, condemned out of my own mouth!). My only justification is that in disbanding the Reds you would not only improve UK Air Power, you would also perhaps solve the problems inherent with this anomalous unit whereby practice and procedure common to RAF operational units i(like the QCS) is laid aside the better to follow its own agendas, personal or organisational.
Chugalug2 is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2022, 12:44
  #251 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Welwyn Garden City
Age: 62
Posts: 1,757
Received 31 Likes on 19 Posts
Originally Posted by Chugalug2
FB, thanks for the kind words and no problem with your disagreeing with me, which surely is in the nature of a conversation. We don't have to agree but should tolerate the views that we disagree with. This thread has wandered somewhat from that ideal, which tells you more about those who lack tolerance than it does about those whose views they oppose.

The great days of the Hendon Air Displays (and no, I wasn't around then to witness them!) was to make this nation 'air-minded'. I would suggest that the nation is very air-minded these days, given the increasing foot fall in our air terminals. It may be entertained by air displays, but it has plenty of evidence about the effects of Air Power on the TV news alone. Is it the job of the RAF to entertain or to more effectively confront those who oppose us? The other reason for Air Displays such as those of the Red Arrows is to aid recruitment. I can only refer to my own experience as a schoolboy CCF cadet. It was far more important to me to go solo in an Air Cadet glider than it was to watch an RAF aerobatic team display. If you want to recruit, then invest more in the Air Cadets and give them back their gliders!

But all this is thread drift (there, condemned out of my own mouth!). My only justification is that in disbanding the Reds you would not only improve UK Air Power, you would also perhaps solve the problems inherent with this anomalous unit whereby practice and procedure common to RAF operational units i(like the QCS) is laid aside the better to follow its own agendas, personal or organisational.
I can see that it is harder to justify the red Arrows now, they do have quite a fan following though, if you read the enthusiasts sites you'll see that. Personally, while clinging to air shows, having had them instilled in my memory over decades, I would perhaps, if necessary, look to replace the Red Arrows with more in the line of operational demonstrations. They may not be too realistic from a crew point of view, but would at least present what the RAF get up to before the public, albeit condensed onto a tiny stage like Fairford or wherever. I was never to keen on gaudy colours, like the Typhoon solo display paint schemes and of course, "the Reds" .

FB
Finningley Boy is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2022, 17:40
  #252 (permalink)  

"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: England
Age: 76
Posts: 3,940
Received 47 Likes on 16 Posts
Chug:
If you want to recruit, then invest more in the Air Cadets ​​​​​​​
Well said. The cadets I come across do themselves, and the RAF proud.
Herod is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2022, 17:59
  #253 (permalink)  
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 1,856
Received 38 Likes on 10 Posts
Interesting how some people think an approach for some type of social intercourse by a commissioned officer to an enlisted team member is appropriate under any circumstances. 1960 did indeed call.
Two's in is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2022, 11:27
  #254 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Age: 65
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Finningley Boy
I can see that it is harder to justify the red Arrows now, they do have quite a fan following though, if you read the enthusiasts sites you'll see that. Personally, while clinging to air shows, having had them instilled in my memory over decades, I would perhaps, if necessary, look to replace the Red Arrows with more in the line of operational demonstrations. They may not be too realistic from a crew point of view, but would at least present what the RAF get up to before the public, albeit condensed onto a tiny stage like Fairford or wherever. I was never to keen on gaudy colours, like the Typhoon solo display paint schemes and of course, "the Reds" .

FB
Will we?

The impression I get is that the keen aviation / air show "enthusiasts" in the UK are not particular fans of the Red Arrows. Yes, they have a considerable popular appeal amongst the more casual / occasional air show attendees and general public. Those that get to see some of the other national jet formation teams from around the world often seem to rank the Red Arrows in fourth or fifth place, particularly in more recent years.
Thoughtful_Flyer is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2022, 12:17
  #255 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Station 42
Age: 68
Posts: 1,025
Received 30 Likes on 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Thoughtful_Flyer
Will we?

The impression I get is that the keen aviation / air show "enthusiasts" in the UK are not particular fans of the Red Arrows. Yes, they have a considerable popular appeal amongst the more casual / occasional air show attendees and general public. Those that get to see some of the other national jet formation teams from around the world often seem to rank the Red Arrows in fourth or fifth place, particularly in more recent years.
The last air show I attended (work circumstances, late last century), me and two workmates stayed in the beer tent when the Arrows were displaying. They do do nothing for me, like glossy supermodels.
We ambled outside to watch Sally B and Plane Sailing's Catalina though.
​​​​​​​
stevef is online now  
Old 20th Nov 2022, 18:05
  #256 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Welwyn Garden City
Age: 62
Posts: 1,757
Received 31 Likes on 19 Posts
Originally Posted by Thoughtful_Flyer
Will we?

The impression I get is that the keen aviation / air show "enthusiasts" in the UK are not particular fans of the Red Arrows. Yes, they have a considerable popular appeal amongst the more casual / occasional air show attendees and general public. Those that get to see some of the other national jet formation teams from around the world often seem to rank the Red Arrows in fourth or fifth place, particularly in more recent years.
TF,

I used to be a member of UKAR, I'm not suggesting all have same outlook, but I do recall a healthy degree of support for the team in particular. There was a faction, a seemingly sizeable one, which got into a lather of concern whenever there was any negative circumstances surrounding them. I'm sure many like yourself, and me perhaps, who feel that the Red Arrows are not the team they were in the late '60s and early '70s, looking at some old photos and film reveal the difference. However, this isn't the fault of the current or recent teams, simply the growing litigious times we live in and genuine concern for the likelihood of tragedy. That said, all things considered, there was only one serious incident I can recall from that era during the work up in early 1971 which was especially bad. I once compared old photos which appeared in the Jersey local paper advertising the St Helier air show, with photos I'd taken recently over the same area of similar manoeuvres, the difference is a real eye opener!

FB

PS As for team rankings, I long ago placed the Italian team in first place ahead of the competition, they stay there now even though they've modified their own sequence to cut out the most impressive manoeuvre, splitting the formation to various points around the airfield then returning to pass, seemingly erratically, in the centre from all directions.
Finningley Boy is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2022, 20:18
  #257 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: where-ever nav's chooses....
Posts: 786
Received 12 Likes on 7 Posts

alfred_the_great is offline  
Old 21st Nov 2022, 18:38
  #258 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Age: 71
Posts: 470
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It would seem another one has gone:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...colleague.html
Exrigger is offline  
Old 21st Nov 2022, 18:45
  #259 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Baston
Posts: 2,852
Received 178 Likes on 86 Posts
Originally Posted by Exrigger
It would seem another one has gone:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...colleague.html
If true [I stress "if"] then chain of command needs to give serious thought to immediate grounding of the team. I say that because their state of mind absolutely cannot be 100% clear of the towering inferno that the team has become.

Accident history reports in recent years have blamed state of mind/ stress etc as contributory causes.

Once again IF TRUE of course.
langleybaston is offline  
Old 21st Nov 2022, 18:57
  #260 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Welwyn Garden City
Age: 62
Posts: 1,757
Received 31 Likes on 19 Posts
Regardless, even if someone is charged with an offence, which has yet to happen, I still don't see why the team's future should be in question, or will we see a corporate charge of cad like behaviour being issued?

FB

Let me apologise in advance to those who will likely find my honest opinion unacceptable, but there we are.
Finningley Boy is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.