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Not-so-woke Reds

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Not-so-woke Reds

Old 10th Nov 2022, 14:46
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by langleybaston
Whereas I am totally opposed to sexual harassment [indeed any harassment] this is a very difficult area, particularly if there are no third party witnesses or written or texting evidence.
We can quickly be in an area where malicious accusations can wreck someone's career and life: male or female.
That is not to say don't try, but I am glad that I have nothing to do in the matter. I only had one case to deal with, the female complaining. Under the urgent circumstances I had the good sense to bring a trusted female colleague into the office to observe and note.
Can of worms
oh, there’s plenty of evidence by all accounts.

might well be described as an example of golden boys thinking they were acting with impunity because they’re Fast Jet mates, and it’s all a bit of banter at the end of the day…
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Old 11th Nov 2022, 08:44
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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I fully understand the unacceptable aspect of the serious reported behaviours on the Reds and in the recent Navy allegations but, the trouble is we have now got to the stage where minor infringements of the new Unacceptable Sexual Behaviour policy require a 2* to determine whether an individual remains in service or not; to the point where if you innocently use a term of endearment (babe/love/pet) and someone complains it is harassment it will be investigated and if proved will go to AVM for a decision on whether you keep your career. Apparently, it also encompasses Micro-Aggressions to which the JSP even states that the individual may not even realise they're doing it!

It's getting to the stage where you're safer just closing your door and not interacting with anyone for fear of upsetting/harassing them and being discharged from the service.
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Old 11th Nov 2022, 09:01
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 4everAD
I fully understand the unacceptable aspect of the serious reported behaviours on the Reds and in the recent Navy allegations but, the trouble is we have now got to the stage where minor infringements of the new Unacceptable Sexual Behaviour policy require a 2* to determine whether an individual remains in service or not; to the point where if you innocently use a term of endearment (babe/love/pet) and someone complains it is harassment it will be investigated and if proved will go to AVM for a decision on whether you keep your career. Apparently, it also encompasses Micro-Aggressions to which the JSP even states that the individual may not even realise they're doing it!

It's getting to the stage where you're safer just closing your door and not interacting with anyone for fear of upsetting/harassing them and being discharged from the service.
Minor?

There’s no such thing as minor sexual harassment, there’s just sexual harrasment.

And folk who commit it deserve to go.
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Old 11th Nov 2022, 09:19
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pr00ne
Minor?

There’s no such thing as minor sexual harassment, there’s just sexual harrasment.

And folk who commit it deserve to go.
I have enormous sympathy with both sides of the situation.
The fact remains, how does one [of either gender or genders] start a relationship without risk? Matters have become silly despite being driven by excellent intentions to solve a real societal problem.
What qualifies a two-star to be judge and jury?
We are experiencing yet another situation of unintended consequences.
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Old 11th Nov 2022, 10:13
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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In 35+ years, I only knew of one instance of the "Conduct prejudicial ..." being used. At the time of Suez, there were multiple troop movements around the ME and shortage of transport aircraft meant using Tudors (which had been banned from pax flying.) One of our aircrew ( a confirmed alcoholic and 'reggie spotter') witnessed the arrival, and, in well-oiled anxiety, informed the troops on board that their aircraft was unsafe. Their subsequent refusal to board for onward passage to Nairobi lead, eventually, to the 'whistle-blower' being charged, demoted and dismissed.
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Old 11th Nov 2022, 10:37
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by langleybaston
I have enormous sympathy with both sides of the situation.
The fact remains, how does one [of either gender or genders] start a relationship without risk? Matters have become silly despite being driven by excellent intentions to solve a real societal problem.
What qualifies a two-star to be judge and jury?
We are experiencing yet another situation of unintended consequences.
From my observations of my juniors starting relationships, it’s generally pretty bloody obvious if both sides “want it”.

and if an individual is not sure, then their advance is unlikely to be welcome…
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Old 11th Nov 2022, 11:05
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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Even in the 70s, when wokeness wasn't even a twinkle in political correctness's eye, a DI would approach a male recruit and say, "Bloggs, I am about to touch you to adjust your hat/belt/tie." Expletives were no longer (officially) allowed as encouragement. Forty years on, if a man (usually) can't or won't work out that the 'show-us-yer-tits, I'd give you one Darlin', mine's milk and 2' approach is sexist and unwanted harassment; let alone climbing into a woman's window or groping someone, then it really doesn't take a 2* to make a decision to bin them. Further, if a J/SNCO can be shown to have 'not acted' when this happens, out they go too.

CG
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Old 11th Nov 2022, 12:15
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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New Team Leader

https://www.suffolkgazette.com/suffo...or-red-arrows/

Hopefully this will bring some stability to the team for the 2023 season. I've known Paul for a long time now. He's a very capable pilot and a good leader. Onwards and upwards!
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Old 11th Nov 2022, 13:46
  #209 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by charliegolf
Even in the 70s, when wokeness wasn't even a twinkle in political correctness's eye, a DI would approach a male recruit and say, "Bloggs, I am about to touch you to adjust your hat/belt/tie." Expletives were no longer (officially) allowed as encouragement. Forty years on, if a man (usually) can't or won't work out that the 'show-us-yer-tits, I'd give you one Darlin', mine's milk and 2' approach is sexist and unwanted harassment; let alone climbing into a woman's window or groping someone, then it really doesn't take a 2* to make a decision to bin them. Further, if a J/SNCO can be shown to have 'not acted' when this happens, out they go too.

CG
Well that certainly was not the case at swinderby in 1972! Expletives happened to non white recruits on my entry and I never heard any D I ask permission before touching recruits.
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Old 11th Nov 2022, 16:38
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dctyke
Well that certainly was not the case at swinderby in 1972! Expletives happened to non white recruits on my entry and I never heard any D I ask permission before touching recruits.
I was '79, and the DI explained it perfectly clearly. Forty years passing, however, is not open to question!

CG
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Old 11th Nov 2022, 19:13
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pr00ne
Minor?

There’s no such thing as minor sexual harassment, there’s just sexual harrasment.

And folk who commit it deserve to go.
He said minor infringements of the new policy. Not sexual harassment. The policy includes both. The policy does indeed mention calling someone ‘babe’ as an example of something where the presumption is discharge. Mitigating or aggravated circumstances may change or solidify that case. Harassing behaviour involves more than a one-off, and likely deserves discharge, but said one-off also starts at discharge as a punishment. Fancy a discharge for someone overhearing your chat with a mate that offends them ? Or a wink?
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Old 11th Nov 2022, 19:23
  #212 (permalink)  
 
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The new DIN is on the web.

have a gander at the policy yourself. Search .gov.uk for

2022DIN01-073: Zero tolerance of unacceptable sexual behaviour: a victim/survivor-focused approach



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Old 11th Nov 2022, 20:15
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dctyke
Well that certainly was not the case at swinderby in 1972! Expletives happened to non white recruits on my entry and I never heard any D I ask permission before touching recruits.
84, one of our guys was called the N word by the Cpl DI.
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Old 11th Nov 2022, 22:56
  #214 (permalink)  
 
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Disband Red Arrows, say victims of 'constant sex pestering' after concerns are raised over squadron | Daily Mail Online

Now its starting to get silly, the ladies in this news release say the team should be disbanded to get rid of the "toxic culture" suggesting an entirely new team be formed, but from where?

FB
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Old 11th Nov 2022, 23:43
  #215 (permalink)  
 
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suggesting an entirely new team be formed, but from where
All female perhaps.
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Old 12th Nov 2022, 03:15
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan
All female perhaps.
I'm sure this is what is being alluded to.

FB
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Old 12th Nov 2022, 05:29
  #217 (permalink)  
 
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For all those banging on about wokeness, this is a case of a person being an absolute arseclown and deserving to be shown the door.
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Old 12th Nov 2022, 06:05
  #218 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Finningley Boy
Disband Red Arrows, say victims of 'constant sex pestering' after concerns are raised over squadron | Daily Mail Online

Now its starting to get silly, the ladies in this news release say the team should be disbanded to get rid of the "toxic culture" suggesting an entirely new team be formed, but from where?

FB
wherever you get the Red Arrows from? There’s something to be said about completely starting from a clean slate.
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Old 12th Nov 2022, 08:13
  #219 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pr00ne
Minor?

There’s no such thing as minor sexual harassment, there’s just sexual harrasment.

And folk who commit it deserve to go.
I have to disagree with this. The problem with the new legislation is that it seems to bunch a huge variety of behaviour under the same title, as so often in modern discourse there seems to be no nuance. Calling someone babe is to my mind less serious than making an unsolicited advance which is less serious than exposing yourself. They are all probably unacceptable behaviour (although people call each other babe/love all the time!) but I would suggest the first could be dealt with by having a word with the perpetrator and the others may well be a case for dismissal. Sexual harassment, like any other 'crime' has a grade from Minor to Serious, hence the need in criminal cases for a judge to decide a sentence based on the severity of the offence. There is a real risk here that people make an error of judgement or even just an error of perception and find themselves suddenly being accused of 'sexual harassment', dismissed from the service and probably prevented from meaningful further employment. I am not suggesting turning a blind eye and ignoring this (as has clearly been done in the past) just that we need to be careful and not swing from one extreme to another.
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Old 12th Nov 2022, 08:32
  #220 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alfred_the_great
wherever you get the Red Arrows from? There’s something to be said about completely starting from a clean slate.
However that surely would be very unfair to any of the current people who are completely innocent?

As I understand it, the whole Red Arrows operation amounts to well over 100 people? That will include, assuming at least some of the current allegations are true, both the guilty and the victims. It will also inevitably include those who, whilst not guilty themselves, turned a blind eye which could (should) be regarded as an offence in itself.

I assume the rolling change in the pilots (two or three new per year?) is considered essential for training so it would be very difficult to start afresh with 9 (11) new ones?

Maybe that is also true for at least some of the 100+ support personnel?

Depending on the future of the team given the age of the jets, the lack of an obvious alternative and the current financial situation then maybe the time has come to pull the plug entirely?

Not a great way to end a high profile national institution!
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