Not-so-woke Reds
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Whilst I've very much enjoyed the Red Arrows for many years, and thought that they were fantastic ambassadors for the whole of the UK, as well as the RAF, I'm beginning to wonder whether, in these cash-strapped times, they are value for money. I can't help at look at what the cost of running the team for a season might do if directed at helping Ukraine, for example. Yes, it would a great loss if they stopped performing for a time, but everyone in the UK is being asked to make cuts for the next two or three years, the country is essentially broke and there are more important things we need to spend our defence budget on.
I'm not suggesting they be permanently scrapped, just stood down for a time and the money redirected to where it might be better value to the taxpayer. Perhaps the team could then be re-instated when the country's finances are in better shape and the defence budget isn't being so heavily squeezed. This furlough period could be used to plan how to re-invent the team, address some of the issues that have plagued them in recent times and come back with a team that is as good, or better, than the existing one.
I'm not suggesting they be permanently scrapped, just stood down for a time and the money redirected to where it might be better value to the taxpayer. Perhaps the team could then be re-instated when the country's finances are in better shape and the defence budget isn't being so heavily squeezed. This furlough period could be used to plan how to re-invent the team, address some of the issues that have plagued them in recent times and come back with a team that is as good, or better, than the existing one.
I tend to agree and further exacerbated by operating an aircraft that is long in the tooth with no replacement identified.
operating an aircraft that is long in the tooth with no replacement identified
Quote:operating an aircraft that is long in the tooth with no replacement identified
SOP for the RAF now isn't it?
SOP for the RAF now isn't it?
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One can see a problem of “team cohesiveness” if members of the Formation Team are involved, as happened some years ago when two Red Team members were replaced/ resigned.
But delving into 2017 “private life events” seems crass..
But delving into 2017 “private life events” seems crass..
If the RAF truly want to 'oust' current and former Reds who have behaved badly (or worse), then it does not need to look far - they are everywhere. The team has been toxic for years and will continue to be so - it is in their DNA.
I do believe the Reds should be disbanded and have felt this way for several years. Defence budgets are wafer thin, and the frontline weapons Ukraine (and the UK) need are not cheap. We cannot justify a bunch of preening primdonna's posing around in obsolete jets and gaudy flying suits when airmen can't get hot water in their living accommodation. The Reds have had their day, and it is time to focus on far more important priorities.
Unfortunately, we have the most detached, clueless and misguided CAS in living memory - he will probably fix it by giving them rainbow coloured flying suits.
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RAFAT won't go.
perception is reality. How will it look to Russia / China / insert other potential adversary when we admit we cant afford / justify a display team when the French / Italians etc are seemingly going strong.
I'd be willing to say most people on this forum have some sort of interest in RAFAT / military aviation-We aviators seem to think the world revolves around us and nothing else matters, hence we read into these articles as if it's the be all and end all. But guess what? The general public care more for who is doing well in Strictly, or players not wearing LGBT armbands in the World Cup. They might see an article in the daily mail about a bloke in a red suit sleeping with someone who works for him, but will then forget it a few days later when they see a cool picture of an A380 with some shiny red jets and smoke next to it flying past the Burj Khalifa.
All the residents of the Gulf states (and our politicians) care about is the solidarity and potential trade that the Reds bring. They are ultimately projectors of UK political policy across the world, and just because an aviation geek thinks disbanding them would solve the T1 problem or an ex SAC tech once missed out on his Pax trip in 1993 because red'x' fancied the pretty air trafficker he met in the bar the night before and took her flying instead will not be at the forefront of a cabinet minister's mind when he or she trying to get a trade deal with (insert obscure country) in 2024 and decides to send the reds as part of a deal sweetener.
perception is reality. How will it look to Russia / China / insert other potential adversary when we admit we cant afford / justify a display team when the French / Italians etc are seemingly going strong.
I'd be willing to say most people on this forum have some sort of interest in RAFAT / military aviation-We aviators seem to think the world revolves around us and nothing else matters, hence we read into these articles as if it's the be all and end all. But guess what? The general public care more for who is doing well in Strictly, or players not wearing LGBT armbands in the World Cup. They might see an article in the daily mail about a bloke in a red suit sleeping with someone who works for him, but will then forget it a few days later when they see a cool picture of an A380 with some shiny red jets and smoke next to it flying past the Burj Khalifa.
All the residents of the Gulf states (and our politicians) care about is the solidarity and potential trade that the Reds bring. They are ultimately projectors of UK political policy across the world, and just because an aviation geek thinks disbanding them would solve the T1 problem or an ex SAC tech once missed out on his Pax trip in 1993 because red'x' fancied the pretty air trafficker he met in the bar the night before and took her flying instead will not be at the forefront of a cabinet minister's mind when he or she trying to get a trade deal with (insert obscure country) in 2024 and decides to send the reds as part of a deal sweetener.
I think Monty is still there and he must have had 16 years+ away from the frontline flying Hawks, with a short break for Aussie staff college. He has spent around a decade in the Reds in that time, so it really has been a flying club for him and I think his current stint as OC RAFAT has been extended too.
Who knew the Reds could be a dedicated career.
Who knew the Reds could be a dedicated career.
solidarity and potential trade that the Reds bring. They are ultimately projectors of UK political policy across the world
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You are right, not in themselves, but the fact we have a combat airforce AND a 9 ship display team goes some way toward the perception of defence in depth (perception being the key).
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I'm not sure that a ‘perception of defence in depth’ is generated by 9/7/6 obsolete jets performing at air shows. I suspect Allies, Partners and Opponents have better metrics on which to base their judgements.
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I must agree. I worked with the Reds for many years and it is clear to me that Wg Cdr Montenegro is being set up as a scapegoat. Did he fraternize with a junior rank against orders - I don't know, but it appears he may have done (yet to be proven). Against the rules...sure. However, if he is 'guilty', then so are dozens of former Red Arrows. In the 90's, pulling other guys wives was practically a rite of passage for the guys on the team. When the first female pilot joined the team she was the toast of breakfast TV and tabloids alike. Where were they when she had an affair with the boss? Silence. The hypocrisy around this team is legendary.
If the RAF truly want to 'oust' current and former Reds who have behaved badly (or worse), then it does not need to look far - they are everywhere. The team has been toxic for years and will continue to be so - it is in their DNA.
I do believe the Reds should be disbanded and have felt this way for several years. Defence budgets are wafer thin, and the frontline weapons Ukraine (and the UK) need are not cheap. We cannot justify a bunch of preening primdonna's posing around in obsolete jets and gaudy flying suits when airmen can't get hot water in their living accommodation. The Reds have had their day, and it is time to focus on far more important priorities.
Unfortunately, we have the most detached, clueless and misguided CAS in living memory - he will probably fix it by giving them rainbow coloured flying suits.
If the RAF truly want to 'oust' current and former Reds who have behaved badly (or worse), then it does not need to look far - they are everywhere. The team has been toxic for years and will continue to be so - it is in their DNA.
I do believe the Reds should be disbanded and have felt this way for several years. Defence budgets are wafer thin, and the frontline weapons Ukraine (and the UK) need are not cheap. We cannot justify a bunch of preening primdonna's posing around in obsolete jets and gaudy flying suits when airmen can't get hot water in their living accommodation. The Reds have had their day, and it is time to focus on far more important priorities.
Unfortunately, we have the most detached, clueless and misguided CAS in living memory - he will probably fix it by giving them rainbow coloured flying suits.
Slartibartfast
Something doesn’t add up with your last post. I have dropped/fired weapons at numerous AWRs around the UK but not once did we land in the local vicinity in order to shag and booze our way around the local hostelries. We tended to pitch up, do our weapons stuff and fly away home.
BV
BV
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Something doesn’t add up with your last post. I have dropped/fired weapons at numerous AWRs around the UK but not once did we land in the local vicinity in order to shag and booze our way around the local hostelries. We tended to pitch up, do our weapons stuff and fly away home.
BV
BV
We had regular visiting detachments at West Freugh when I was there in the 90's. The Harrier detachments, in particular, shone out as being most likely to attract claims from local landlords. Some of those landlords were undoubtedly chancers (like the owner of The Crown in Portpatrick), but most were fairly honest. Very common to have detachments stay for around a week at a time back then.
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Throughout this I’ve often thought what was the Sqn WO doing, I take it they have one? If he didn’t have the balls to put one or two right whether in his office or theirs he didn’t deserve the rank and status.
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Slartibartfast
I’d forgotten about West Freugh and I’ve stayed at the Crown myself (as a Tucano student). You made it sound like it happened at every range. I can’t think of any others where people might stay for a prolonged period. I won’t count dets to St Athan for Pembrey since an RSO wouldn’t be in the same postcode.
BV
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I’d forgotten about West Freugh and I’ve stayed at the Crown myself (as a Tucano student). You made it sound like it happened at every range. I can’t think of any others where people might stay for a prolonged period. I won’t count dets to St Athan for Pembrey since an RSO wouldn’t be in the same postcode.
BV
BV
My recollection of the Tucano studes is that they were pretty well behaved. IIRC, one of them was quite an accomplished piano player, and used to attract quite an audience in the restaurant at the back when staying there. The owner of the place, Curly Wilson, ended up getting arrested, not sure what for. Strange bloke, as I stayed at the Crown for around a month when I first arrived at WF in November 1992, tried to negotiate a reduced rate to stay there whilst I sorted out buying a house (once my 30 night subsistence allowance was up) and he point blank refused, so I rented a cottage in the village that was within the lodging allowance amount. After a lock-in at the Crown one night (after I'd moved out), Curly got seriously pissed when I asked him to unlock the door so I could get home. The bugger thought I was still staying there and paying full him whack. He complained that he had loads of empty rooms that winter, serves him right for not cutting me a deal.
