Not-so-woke Reds
I must agree. I worked with the Reds for many years and it is clear to me that Wg Cdr Montenegro is being set up as a scapegoat. Did he fraternize with a junior rank against orders - I don't know, but it appears he may have done (yet to be proven). Against the rules...sure. However, if he is 'guilty', then so are dozens of former Red Arrows. In the 90's, pulling other guys wives was practically a rite of passage for the guys on the team. When the first female pilot joined the team she was the toast of breakfast TV and tabloids alike. Where were they when she had an affair with the boss? Silence. The hypocrisy around this team is legendary.
If the RAF truly want to 'oust' current and former Reds who have behaved badly (or worse), then it does not need to look far - they are everywhere. The team has been toxic for years and will continue to be so - it is in their DNA.
I do believe the Reds should be disbanded and have felt this way for several years. Defence budgets are wafer thin, and the frontline weapons Ukraine (and the UK) need are not cheap. We cannot justify a bunch of preening primdonna's posing around in obsolete jets and gaudy flying suits when airmen can't get hot water in their living accommodation. The Reds have had their day, and it is time to focus on far more important priorities.
Unfortunately, we have the most detached, clueless and misguided CAS in living memory - he will probably fix it by giving them rainbow coloured flying suits.
If the RAF truly want to 'oust' current and former Reds who have behaved badly (or worse), then it does not need to look far - they are everywhere. The team has been toxic for years and will continue to be so - it is in their DNA.
I do believe the Reds should be disbanded and have felt this way for several years. Defence budgets are wafer thin, and the frontline weapons Ukraine (and the UK) need are not cheap. We cannot justify a bunch of preening primdonna's posing around in obsolete jets and gaudy flying suits when airmen can't get hot water in their living accommodation. The Reds have had their day, and it is time to focus on far more important priorities.
Unfortunately, we have the most detached, clueless and misguided CAS in living memory - he will probably fix it by giving them rainbow coloured flying suits.
Do you really think all the problems you've listed can be helped by even the smallest degree by disbanding the Red Arrows? Everything to do with prestige and public image regarding HM Forces has taken a right good pasting continuously over the decades. The Royal Tournament has gone, there is no longer a ceremonial guard posted at Edinburgh Castle, it sounds like a tenuous link, but the disappearance of all these things are part of the same bean counting mindset. Eventually, there will be nothing to present publicly anywhere in any format. The armed forces, trust me, will be, by modern comparison, truly invisible. Recruitment will evaporate, apart from those recruited from abroad. The less sympathetic and more ignorant elements of the population will ask why do we waste money on such luxuries as the armed forces? this'll be the upshot, especially once the current caper in Ukraine is water under the bridge. Like the man said, you don't know what you've got until its gone. Public visibility, even if its fabricated, as it often is, pays its way.
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Mr Inminj,
Do you really think all the problems you've listed can be helped by even the smallest degree by disbanding the Red Arrows? Everything to do with prestige and public image regarding HM Forces has taken a right good pasting continuously over the decades. The Royal Tournament has gone, there is no longer a ceremonial guard posted at Edinburgh Castle, it sounds like a tenuous link, but the disappearance of all these things are part of the same bean counting mindset. Eventually, there will be nothing to present publicly anywhere in any format. The armed forces, trust me, will be, by modern comparison, truly invisible. Recruitment will evaporate, apart from those recruited from abroad. The less sympathetic and more ignorant elements of the population will ask why do we waste money on such luxuries as the armed forces? this'll be the upshot, especially once the current caper in Ukraine is water under the bridge. Like the man said, you don't know what you've got until its gone. Public visibility, even if its fabricated, as it often is, pays its way.
FB
FB
Do you really think all the problems you've listed can be helped by even the smallest degree by disbanding the Red Arrows? Everything to do with prestige and public image regarding HM Forces has taken a right good pasting continuously over the decades. The Royal Tournament has gone, there is no longer a ceremonial guard posted at Edinburgh Castle, it sounds like a tenuous link, but the disappearance of all these things are part of the same bean counting mindset. Eventually, there will be nothing to present publicly anywhere in any format. The armed forces, trust me, will be, by modern comparison, truly invisible. Recruitment will evaporate, apart from those recruited from abroad. The less sympathetic and more ignorant elements of the population will ask why do we waste money on such luxuries as the armed forces? this'll be the upshot, especially once the current caper in Ukraine is water under the bridge. Like the man said, you don't know what you've got until its gone. Public visibility, even if its fabricated, as it often is, pays its way.
FB
FB
The Reds are a small, diminishing and tarnished relic, operating elderly and undesirable aircraft and for some time attracting the very worst sort of publicity with lethal accidents and disgraceful behaviour.
However, I think the immediate matter for responsible COC would be to consider the current mind-set of the pilots as they climb into the cockpit. Not ideal, is it?
I rather thought the funerals of Prince Philip and HM the Queen were mighty examples of the intrinsic excellence and discipline and delivery of the armed forces with massive spectator/ audience exposure
The Reds are a small, diminishing and tarnished relic, operating elderly and undesirable aircraft and for some time attracting the very worst sort of publicity with lethal accidents and disgraceful behaviour.
However, I think the immediate matter for responsible COC would be to consider the current mind-set of the pilots as they climb into the cockpit. Not ideal, is it?
The Reds are a small, diminishing and tarnished relic, operating elderly and undesirable aircraft and for some time attracting the very worst sort of publicity with lethal accidents and disgraceful behaviour.
However, I think the immediate matter for responsible COC would be to consider the current mind-set of the pilots as they climb into the cockpit. Not ideal, is it?
NOT.
What a disgraceful post.
Some of your remarks do strike a chord. Daily Mail causing damage by reporting old news that had been investigated a long time ago. Not the whole story either , but putting the RAF in a situation they cannot dismiss. Typical Daily Mail readers response. Got a mate on RAFAT and they are just so pissed off by the relentless bull.
However, I think the immediate matter for responsible COC would be to consider the current mind-set of the pilots as they climb into the cockpit. Not ideal, is it?
Last edited by langleybaston; 22nd Nov 2022 at 20:05.
This current situation meets all the definition of a tragedy for the Reds and it brings me no joy, I have respected and enjoyed their skill and precision since the 1960's. I feel sorry for the Reds of earlier generations who built the reputation of the team for excellence which is now being tarnished. I am afraid that only the excision of those clearly proved culpable will save the day for the team. If the team is disbanded- as some have suggested- I cannot see it ever being reformed, politics and economics will come in to play. They need to work through the current difficulties and be transparent about the changes and reforms they have made.
I rather thought the funerals of Prince Philip and HM the Queen were mighty examples of the intrinsic excellence and discipline and delivery of the armed forces with massive spectator/ audience exposure
The Reds are a small, diminishing and tarnished relic, operating elderly and undesirable aircraft and for some time attracting the very worst sort of publicity with lethal accidents and disgraceful behaviour.
However, I think the immediate matter for responsible COC would be to consider the current mind-set of the pilots as they climb into the cockpit. Not ideal, is it?
The Reds are a small, diminishing and tarnished relic, operating elderly and undesirable aircraft and for some time attracting the very worst sort of publicity with lethal accidents and disgraceful behaviour.
However, I think the immediate matter for responsible COC would be to consider the current mind-set of the pilots as they climb into the cockpit. Not ideal, is it?
No, far from it. Inconvenient maybe but it seems to hit the nail on the head perfectly!
I rather thought the funerals of Prince Philip and HM the Queen were mighty examples of the intrinsic excellence and discipline and delivery of the armed forces with massive spectator/ audience exposure
The Reds are a small, diminishing and tarnished relic, operating elderly and undesirable aircraft and for some time attracting the very worst sort of publicity with lethal accidents and disgraceful behaviour.
However, I think the immediate matter for responsible COC would be to consider the current mind-set of the pilots as they climb into the cockpit. Not ideal, is it?
The Reds are a small, diminishing and tarnished relic, operating elderly and undesirable aircraft and for some time attracting the very worst sort of publicity with lethal accidents and disgraceful behaviour.
However, I think the immediate matter for responsible COC would be to consider the current mind-set of the pilots as they climb into the cockpit. Not ideal, is it?
FB
RAFAT won't go.
perception is reality. How will it look to Russia / China / insert other potential adversary when we admit we cant afford / justify a display team when the French / Italians etc are seemingly going strong.
I'd be willing to say most people on this forum have some sort of interest in RAFAT / military aviation-We aviators seem to think the world revolves around us and nothing else matters, hence we read into these articles as if it's the be all and end all. But guess what? The general public care more for who is doing well in Strictly, or players not wearing LGBT armbands in the World Cup. They might see an article in the daily mail about a bloke in a red suit sleeping with someone who works for him, but will then forget it a few days later when they see a cool picture of an A380 with some shiny red jets and smoke next to it flying past the Burj Khalifa.
All the residents of the Gulf states (and our politicians) care about is the solidarity and potential trade that the Reds bring. They are ultimately projectors of UK political policy across the world, and just because an aviation geek thinks disbanding them would solve the T1 problem or an ex SAC tech once missed out on his Pax trip in 1993 because red'x' fancied the pretty air trafficker he met in the bar the night before and took her flying instead will not be at the forefront of a cabinet minister's mind when he or she trying to get a trade deal with (insert obscure country) in 2024 and decides to send the reds as part of a deal sweetener.
perception is reality. How will it look to Russia / China / insert other potential adversary when we admit we cant afford / justify a display team when the French / Italians etc are seemingly going strong.
I'd be willing to say most people on this forum have some sort of interest in RAFAT / military aviation-We aviators seem to think the world revolves around us and nothing else matters, hence we read into these articles as if it's the be all and end all. But guess what? The general public care more for who is doing well in Strictly, or players not wearing LGBT armbands in the World Cup. They might see an article in the daily mail about a bloke in a red suit sleeping with someone who works for him, but will then forget it a few days later when they see a cool picture of an A380 with some shiny red jets and smoke next to it flying past the Burj Khalifa.
All the residents of the Gulf states (and our politicians) care about is the solidarity and potential trade that the Reds bring. They are ultimately projectors of UK political policy across the world, and just because an aviation geek thinks disbanding them would solve the T1 problem or an ex SAC tech once missed out on his Pax trip in 1993 because red'x' fancied the pretty air trafficker he met in the bar the night before and took her flying instead will not be at the forefront of a cabinet minister's mind when he or she trying to get a trade deal with (insert obscure country) in 2024 and decides to send the reds as part of a deal sweetener.
What is being forgotten is that real people, many of them junior, have been suffering in the team for several years and have been too frightened to come forward; not thinking they would be listened to, or thrown out of the team. These are allegations of bullying, misogyny, assault, sexual harassment and drunkenness - going right to the top with several officers already leaving, one voluntarily due to the 'toxic' culture. The rate they are being moved-on/dismissed it looks like the team will disband itself!
Does this team really represent the best of the RAF? is that what we are trying to sell abroad?
Having worked with the Reds over a good number of years I would opine that they are selected to fit in and for the most part become carbon copies of the dominant members of the team; they believe their own hype and behave accordingly. I have witnessed good guys come in to the team and turn into utter twats in a short space of time. What needs to be done? Someone needs to show a bit of leadership and grip them firmly if they are to remain worthwhile ambassadors for the RAF.
And so the 'untouchable' toxic mind-set is perpetuated...utterly cynical "no one cares as long as they get a shiny display / flog military kit to a dodgy country.
What is being forgotten is that real people, many of them junior, have been suffering in the team for several years and have been too frightened to come forward; not thinking they would be listened to, or thrown out of the team. These are allegations of bullying, misogyny, assault, sexual harassment and drunkenness - going right to the top with several officers already leaving, one voluntarily due to the 'toxic' culture. The rate they are being moved-on/dismissed it looks like the team will disband itself!
Does this team really represent the best of the RAF? is that what we are trying to sell abroad?
What is being forgotten is that real people, many of them junior, have been suffering in the team for several years and have been too frightened to come forward; not thinking they would be listened to, or thrown out of the team. These are allegations of bullying, misogyny, assault, sexual harassment and drunkenness - going right to the top with several officers already leaving, one voluntarily due to the 'toxic' culture. The rate they are being moved-on/dismissed it looks like the team will disband itself!
Does this team really represent the best of the RAF? is that what we are trying to sell abroad?
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Perhaps the one that left citing the "Toxic" culture Squadron Leader Nick Critchell would have been the ideal person to promote and put in charge of the team.
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Indeed but there have been plenty of rumours and stories along the current lines going right back to the days when they flew Gnats. The difference being it was easier and sadly more acceptable to sweep it all under the carpet back then. Not that they wouldn't have tried even now! However a combination of social media and more enlightened attitudes has made that far harder, although I suspect there is more still to emerge.
Valley got a call one year urgently asking for bodies to help with their winter servicing / Minors etc. Off some of us went. Get to L.Riss and " who are you and what are you doing here ? "....it would have been useful to inform L.Riss before we arrived, off to Kemble...enter their eng crew room only to be told this is for Reds only, you use 4Sqdn's...then allocated to aircraft...not a Red engineer in sight or helping during our stay....which was cut short once Valley were aware. .
Also had a habit of pitching up at Valley with a load of u/s brakes and wheels whereupon they simply depleted our own stock leaving the Bay with a lot of work to service theirs and keep our own stocks at the usual levels.
As for disbanding, the outcry wouldn't come, having listened to many conversations, from the enthusiasts, but from the many event organisers for whom their appearance is a big draw for the general public
for most of the Great British Public the Reds ARE the RAF - they know nothing about F35's, A400's or the million other things the RAF does. Like Concorde they are more a symbol than anything else. There'd be murder if someone suggested killing them off.
On a more positive note, Ray Hanna's original red flying suit and green flying jacket will be going up for auction this year, I believe on 26 November live auction at 21:30hrs. His Daughter, Sarah, found them recently and handed them to an outfit called Aerobility for the afore mentioned purpose. I should imagine they'll go for quite a fortune. If anyone's interested in making a bid contact 07952 628625.
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BLAND
The RAF I knew was full of eccentrics- aircrew who lived life to the full ,loved flying and worked ,when necessary,24/7
A can do attitude prevailed,squadron morale was high- and the Reds ( love them or hate them) were admired (and envied) by us all. Their skill acquired by HARD WEEKEND WORK was the envy of all who love aviation. They were ,and still are,the stars of the show and most of us would love to have been good enough to be selected for THE team.
Everyone knew that they were prima donnas but no one really cared a stuff! It was all part of a healthy inter unit rivalry.
They are the envy of other forces and endlessly ,with their faultless displays ,show the RAF off at its best.
Do we really want to disband this team,the pride of the nation,and end up with a bland - politically correct- woke force of nonentity?
The RAF I knew was full of eccentrics- aircrew who lived life to the full ,loved flying and worked ,when necessary,24/7
A can do attitude prevailed,squadron morale was high- and the Reds ( love them or hate them) were admired (and envied) by us all. Their skill acquired by HARD WEEKEND WORK was the envy of all who love aviation. They were ,and still are,the stars of the show and most of us would love to have been good enough to be selected for THE team.
Everyone knew that they were prima donnas but no one really cared a stuff! It was all part of a healthy inter unit rivalry.
They are the envy of other forces and endlessly ,with their faultless displays ,show the RAF off at its best.
Do we really want to disband this team,the pride of the nation,and end up with a bland - politically correct- woke force of nonentity?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
You can keep going when you are respected - when they laugh at you, you are finished..
Not that this matters but I find this reminds me a lot of the 3rd world that I come from - where rules and standards apply only to the hoi polloi. It's almost the classic response to accusations of corruption back there: "they" (meaning politicians or connected businessmen etc) are too important to have to obey the law, let alone common decencies.