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Moskva down

Old 22nd Apr 2022, 23:42
  #381 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Toadstool View Post
I don’t suppose you could call the EC130 Compass Call a “tactical” EW aircraft but it performs much the same role as the growler.
Actually that is exactly what Compass Call is and was designed for. I flew them for four years, and while we were continually tasked to perform “collection” missions, it was the SEAD IAD rollback of specifically comms and IFF/SIF, RSBN,SVOD nav that made it a tactical platform. The “endless wars” changed all of that.
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Old 23rd Apr 2022, 09:10
  #382 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jack D View Post
Surely nothing beats a Growler ?
Two growlers?
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Old 23rd Apr 2022, 10:23
  #383 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Kingbird87 View Post
Actually that is exactly what Compass Call is and was designed for. I flew them for four years, and while we were continually tasked to perform “collection” missions, it was the SEAD IAD rollback of specifically comms and IFF/SIF, RSBN,SVOD nav that made it a tactical platform. The “endless wars” changed all of that.
Thanks King. In my clumsy way, I was trying to say that the USAF does have such a capability.

I have 3 friends that have recently served at DM on the platform.
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Old 23rd Apr 2022, 12:48
  #384 (permalink)  
 
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"I kinda surprised people thought the Moskva would survive anything. The US has demonstrated multiple times that correctly applied EW reduces the best missile air defense system to unguided rockets. "

Interesting post FP - but I suspect that both the British in the Falkland's and the Russians recently also had great faith in their ability to avoid a massive strike on a warship.

I think there are two problems - one is you don't know exactly how someone is going to fight a war until you get in the fight and secondly navies, because they have a relatively few, long lived and expensive platforms are reluctant to talk about losing any of them in a fight and so, when they do, the shock is that much greater. I'm sure the USN would do better than the Russian's but the opposition might be a lot greater than the Ukrainians have mounted at sea so far.
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Old 24th Apr 2022, 22:32
  #385 (permalink)  
 
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Russian Ships In Poor "Material Condition"

In the 1990s, I went aboard one of the visiting Russian ships in Norfolk. I and another retired navy friend observed generally poor condition as discussed in earlier posts. There was much overpainting of rust and other forms of corrosion. We were not permitted to go below decks but obviously they don't properly maintain their metal on the weather decks. I would suspect that things below deck would not be any better. From that, I would infer that things like fire-fighting equipment would also lack proper attention.
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Old 25th Apr 2022, 06:57
  #386 (permalink)  
 
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Things change tho' early '00's we were guests on a small Russian warship in the Black Sea and you could have eaten off the deck. First engine room I've ever been in where I didn't have to scrub oil off my hands afterwards either.........................

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Old 25th Apr 2022, 07:04
  #387 (permalink)  
 
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Just read an article explaining that the deck of the Slava class is covered in wooden planking, and the ship has way too many portholes, windows etc., too close to the waterline, making them very dangerous in a fire situation.
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Old 25th Apr 2022, 08:55
  #388 (permalink)  
 
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The many tankers in the Russian Merchant fleet I've been on are generally in good nick, but then they have to be to pass Oil Major/Trader vetting, Port State Control etc. Officers and crew are generally fairly competent too, but happily for my line of work, do screw up periodically.
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Old 25th Apr 2022, 09:04
  #389 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
They will be buggered if the Ukrainians drop that one on top of it.
Good point. There's isn't going to be much drift in the 100m of so of seawater between it and the Moskva if they do sink it.

Have to say it does make a very tempting target...
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Old 25th Apr 2022, 09:35
  #390 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dead_pan View Post
Good point. There's isn't going to be much drift in the 100m of so of seawater between it and the Moskva if they do sink it.

Have to say it does make a very tempting target...
Great diving spot though, so long as you are wearing a lead drysuit and have a windscreen washer on your mask to wash the mud off from the Black Sea water. Sounds like there were indeed nukes on board, as postulated, so there will be a need for radiological monitoring of the ocean, like K219, and... etc... Low likelihood of leakage, but then so was the self immolation of 3 oil farms, 3 ships, etc. It is in relatively shallow water, so there is the issue of pilferage. Wasn't there a Bond film like that?

Moskva is lying in about 25 fathoms/51m, more or less, so is not a deep dive. Deep enough. If she is on her side, then her uppermost part of the hull is only 30m/ from the surface. If she sank level, then she is a hazard to shipping but would make a great diving wreck. she drew 8m roughly, and there was a mast height of around 56m, of which some will have fallen off, maybe. if she was sitting flat on the bottom, there would be about 10m of mast out of the water, so, she is probably on her side, they did say she rolled over. so her SS-N missiles will be sitting at least 2 of them, around 30m from the surface. Assumed she had a minimum load out of 4 nukes, it may be 2, but it won't be less than that number, and it will be shipshape an even number. The loadout would want the nukes in the safest location for which a case could be made is tubes 1,3, 2 & 4. alternatively tubes 13,14,15 & 16. Radiologically the forward tubes would be safest for the crew, but as the Russian navy doesn't care about the crew, then the missiles would be safer around the aft tubes, and that could be an issue. The strike was around the CIC area or slightly aft of tube 16, so there could be damage, but none was able to be seen in the snapshots.
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Old 25th Apr 2022, 19:51
  #391 (permalink)  
 
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Before battle in the old days battleships would chop up their wood paneling and throw it overboard. Guess The Moskva wasn't in "fighting trim"
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Old 25th Apr 2022, 20:14
  #392 (permalink)  
 
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Computer processing power is what makes or mostly breaks EW. (Computer processing power can also turn a crap sensor into an eagle eye). Off the shelf components will not beat custom components (except at $$$). The Russians can't make the custom specific hardware - this puts them roughly 20 years behind no matter what.
They use to compensate somewhat by being clever but I'll bet all the clever people have defected. My favorite was 10 ns delay? 10 foot circuit lead traced around the outside edge of the circuit board.


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Old 26th Apr 2022, 07:18
  #393 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting - a review of the PLA(N) a few years back pointed out how many of their radar systems were lifted directly from a wide range of commercial (and I mean COMMERCIAL here - as in tankers and cruise ships) western and far eastern kit. Easy to do and quick and cheap to update but a definite issue with capability
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 20:39
  #394 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
Interesting - a review of the PLA(N) a few years back pointed out how many of their radar systems were lifted directly from a wide range of commercial (and I mean COMMERCIAL here - as in tankers and cruise ships) western and far eastern kit. Easy to do and quick and cheap to update but a definite issue with capability
Interesting that you mention this. Back in the 70's the SH-2D had an LN-66 Marconi radar equipped which was, IIRC, a cut and paste from a ship based Marconi radar and (EW signature wise) nearly the same. For the SH-2F (which I flew in the 80's) they wanted more range and we had a modified LN-66 (the LN-66HP if memory serves) that had a unique signature. (Or so the EW shop told us).
There are plenty of good brains in China, I suspect they may be able to mod/upgrade some of that commercial stuff into improved kit.
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 20:52
  #395 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jack D View Post
Surely nothing beats a Growler ?
Well oddly enough, the Navy wants to disband the 5 land based squadrons and send all the 25 aircraft into storage.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...o-the-boneyard
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 20:58
  #396 (permalink)  
 
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They think they have the location of the sinking identified from an oil slick leaking from the ship.

H I Sutton - Covert Shores
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 21:09
  #397 (permalink)  
 
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NutLoose: thanks for the link. Here's a bit of interest to this thread from the end of that article:
The loss of Moskva may have made the Russian Navy less brazen in its operations off Odesa, but they have not stopped entirely. Four-ship formation of corvettes was seen today along with possible submarine movements. Many less defended Russian ships continue to sail unescorted, especially closer to the Crimean coast.
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 21:59
  #398 (permalink)  
 
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It’s ok though, they have Flipper and co defending them now. I’d like to see a Neptune get through that!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...olphins-crimea
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Old 29th Apr 2022, 04:48
  #399 (permalink)  
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Flipper

Originally Posted by Una Due Tfc View Post
It’s ok though, they have Flipper and co defending them now. I’d like to see a Neptune get through that!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...olphins-crimea
They may have flipper, but the Ukrainians have a flush for that too.

The removal of the commanding Admiral of the Black Sea Fleet was commemorated in appropriate Russian style and ceremony:



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Old 29th Apr 2022, 05:02
  #400 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
NutLoose: thanks for the link. Here's a bit of interest to this thread from the end of that article:
Interesting. The Black Sea OOB has a lot of ship-to-ship capability, but the Kilo's have 3M-54 Kalibr which are capable land-attack cruise missiles. Wonder how many remain in their inventory. Ukraine is pretty light on ASW capability, but AEW and point defence might be interesting.
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