Moskva down
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
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Perhaps Putin is certain that NATO assisted in the sinking of Moskva but outright stating so would require him to respond in some form, something that it's increasingly obvious Russia would be ill-equipped to do?
This would also tie in with the increasing 'freedom' NATO countries are exploiting to provide Ukraine with larger and more potent weapon systems. Russia keeps making noise about "consequences" but what can Russia realistically do?
Given the performance of the Russian armed forces against Ukraine over the past 8 weeks, and their attrition rates, it is pretty obvious that for Putin to declare war on NATO (deliberately attacking any 1 NATO state amounts to the same thing), then the resultant defeat would be far reaching and inevitable. Sure, NATO forces would suffer some significant losses, but Russia would be forced to evacuate all the territory they have claimed, including all of East Ukraine and Crimea, and end up with zero military capability. Their only alternative would be to start a MAD WW3. Would the chain of command 'break down' if the order was given?
Not going to happen.
Not going to happen.
Tabs please !
There was a concentration of NATO ISR effort along the very eastern edge of Romania in the days prior to the attack on the Moskva (as discussed on various spotter blogs). My working assumption at the time was that 'we' were trying to get a handle on events in eastern Ukraine, but who knows?
That said, Moskva's whereabouts would have have been relatively easy to determine, given that it is one enormous radio/radar emitter.
What is intriguing is the deployment of six USN EA-18G into Poland a few weeks ago. Why these particular aircraft, given the USAF have their own EW assets? USN keen to get in on the action, or maybe they have some specific capabilities useful for engagements with Russian naval vessels?
I and others have commented on social media that Russia could quite easily - and credibly - implicated NATO in the sinking. The fact that they didn't even hint at this speaks volumes.
That said, Moskva's whereabouts would have have been relatively easy to determine, given that it is one enormous radio/radar emitter.
What is intriguing is the deployment of six USN EA-18G into Poland a few weeks ago. Why these particular aircraft, given the USAF have their own EW assets? USN keen to get in on the action, or maybe they have some specific capabilities useful for engagements with Russian naval vessels?
I and others have commented on social media that Russia could quite easily - and credibly - implicated NATO in the sinking. The fact that they didn't even hint at this speaks volumes.
The USAF has been without a dedicated electronic warfare aircraft since it retired the General Dynamics EF-111A Raven in 1998. Instead, the service has relied on the US Navy’s (USN’s) Northrop Grumman EA-6B Prowler and most recently the Boeing EA-18G Growler via the Joint Airborne Electronic Attack Program. As part of that joint effort, personnel from the USAF’s 390th Electronic Combat Squadron are based at NAS Whidbey Island in Washington State.
Also, the missile blitz the Russians unleashed in response to this 'non-provocation' (in their eyes, at least publicly) has given the West the perfect excuse to ramp up supplies of AD weaponry and aircraft spares. Russia seems to be outplayed at every turn.
The USAF currently has no deployable tactical EW assts. They are in the process of standing up a unit. Currently they use the Growlers by agreement.
The USAF has been without a dedicated electronic warfare aircraft since it retired the General Dynamics EF-111A Raven in 1998. Instead, the service has relied on the US Navy’s (USN’s) Northrop Grumman EA-6B Prowler and most recently the Boeing EA-18G Growler via the Joint Airborne Electronic Attack Program. As part of that joint effort, personnel from the USAF’s 390th Electronic Combat Squadron are based at NAS Whidbey Island in Washington State.
The USAF has been without a dedicated electronic warfare aircraft since it retired the General Dynamics EF-111A Raven in 1998. Instead, the service has relied on the US Navy’s (USN’s) Northrop Grumman EA-6B Prowler and most recently the Boeing EA-18G Growler via the Joint Airborne Electronic Attack Program. As part of that joint effort, personnel from the USAF’s 390th Electronic Combat Squadron are based at NAS Whidbey Island in Washington State.
The USAF currently has no deployable tactical EW assts. They are in the process of standing up a unit. Currently they use the Growlers by agreement.
The USAF has been without a dedicated electronic warfare aircraft since it retired the General Dynamics EF-111A Raven in 1998. Instead, the service has relied on the US Navy’s (USN’s) Northrop Grumman EA-6B Prowler and most recently the Boeing EA-18G Growler via the Joint Airborne Electronic Attack Program. As part of that joint effort, personnel from the USAF’s 390th Electronic Combat Squadron are based at NAS Whidbey Island in Washington State.
The USAF has been without a dedicated electronic warfare aircraft since it retired the General Dynamics EF-111A Raven in 1998. Instead, the service has relied on the US Navy’s (USN’s) Northrop Grumman EA-6B Prowler and most recently the Boeing EA-18G Growler via the Joint Airborne Electronic Attack Program. As part of that joint effort, personnel from the USAF’s 390th Electronic Combat Squadron are based at NAS Whidbey Island in Washington State.
Given the performance of the Russian armed forces against Ukraine over the past 8 weeks, and their attrition rates, it is pretty obvious that for Putin to declare war on NATO (deliberately attacking any 1 NATO state amounts to the same thing), then the resultant defeat would be far reaching and inevitable. Sure, NATO forces would suffer some significant losses, but Russia would be forced to evacuate all the territory they have claimed, including all of East Ukraine and Crimea, and end up with zero military capability. Their only alternative would be to start a MAD WW3. Would the chain of command 'break down' if the order was given?
Not going to happen.
Not going to happen.
What would be credible exit scenarios for the Russian government to end this war without losing face?
There was a concentration of NATO ISR effort along the very eastern edge of Romania in the days prior to the attack on the Moskva (as discussed on various spotter blogs). My working assumption at the time was that 'we' were trying to get a handle on events in eastern Ukraine, but who knows?
That said, Moskva's whereabouts would have have been relatively easy to determine, given that it is one enormous radio/radar emitter.
What is intriguing is the deployment of six USN EA-18G into Poland a few weeks ago. Why these particular aircraft, given the USAF have their own EW assets? USN keen to get in on the action, or maybe they have some specific capabilities useful for engagements with Russian naval vessels?
I and others have commented on social media that Russia could quite easily - and credibly - implicated NATO in the sinking. The fact that they didn't even hint at this speaks volumes.
That said, Moskva's whereabouts would have have been relatively easy to determine, given that it is one enormous radio/radar emitter.
What is intriguing is the deployment of six USN EA-18G into Poland a few weeks ago. Why these particular aircraft, given the USAF have their own EW assets? USN keen to get in on the action, or maybe they have some specific capabilities useful for engagements with Russian naval vessels?
I and others have commented on social media that Russia could quite easily - and credibly - implicated NATO in the sinking. The fact that they didn't even hint at this speaks volumes.
- Lefortovo,
- Госуда́рственный нау́чный центр социа́льной и суде́бной психиатри́и им. В. П. Се́рбского, or
- the "St Petersburg Caviar Repository".
The more practical question is what degree of, or level of, sanctions relief will be achievable via negotiations once a cease fire is arranged?
(And that will eventually come to pass, hopefully sooner than later).
Well, maybe the canny Ukrainians put up a TB2 in the area every night or so to keep them honest?
Given the lax conduct of almost every branch of the Russia mil, I wouldn't at all surprised if they didn't bother with emcon ("we're an invincible carrier killer - Ukraine doesn't pose any threat to us!")
Given the lax conduct of almost every branch of the Russia mil, I wouldn't at all surprised if they didn't bother with emcon ("we're an invincible carrier killer - Ukraine doesn't pose any threat to us!")
As enlightenment goes this thread about a current ' war ' situation and supposed Western assets in the area, is this a case of ' walls have ears ' ??
I'm sure nothing on here will be ' News ' to the Russians, but are we sure?
I'm sure nothing on here will be ' News ' to the Russians, but are we sure?
Let’s hope they do not read the papers !!
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...utm_medium=RSS
Print
By Mike Glenn - The Washington Times - Wednesday, April 20, 2022A U.S. Navy surveillance aircraft was reportedly tracking the flagship of the Russian Black Sea fleet on April 13 in the hours before it was hit by Ukrainian forces.
The British Daily Mail newspaper reported that the Navy’s P-8 Poseidon was providing targeting data to Ukrainian forces, making it possible for them to fire a pair of Neptune missiles at the guided-missile cruiser Moskva while it was patrolling south of Odesa.
The Kremlin initially claimed the damage to the Moskva was the result of an onboard explosion caused by a fire. The warship later sank as it was being towed back to Russia-controlled Crimea for repairs.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...utm_medium=RSS
By Mike Glenn - The Washington Times - Wednesday, April 20, 2022A U.S. Navy surveillance aircraft was reportedly tracking the flagship of the Russian Black Sea fleet on April 13 in the hours before it was hit by Ukrainian forces.
The British Daily Mail newspaper reported that the Navy’s P-8 Poseidon was providing targeting data to Ukrainian forces, making it possible for them to fire a pair of Neptune missiles at the guided-missile cruiser Moskva while it was patrolling south of Odesa.
The Kremlin initially claimed the damage to the Moskva was the result of an onboard explosion caused by a fire. The warship later sank as it was being towed back to Russia-controlled Crimea for repairs.
They certainly don't read their own papers.
What is needed is a whole bunch of empty B737s to do circuits of the Black Sea, Sea of Okhotsk, off North Cape etc, to just add to the fun quotient of the Russians. They do that and they don't expect others to do it back?
For what it's worth the 12" GWX-70 will pick up the same size target at 60nm, and you can add that to a Cessna Caravan. Plonk in a whole bunch of turtle packs, and pack a lunch and lots of coffee. There is some really neat synthetic aperture sidescan radar systems that can be strapped to the same clunker, and that will give a photo-realistic image in real-time with L/L, COG/SOG etc. not going to be great at avoiding power poles when they get launched, but still there's a lot of the Black sea to deny from the Russians. Great for hour building. bring a parachute and an immersion suit.
Are you suggesting that WW3 may be declared because of what someone said on PPRuNe? Wouldn't be the first time. .
In the middle of the pond, with no surface threat worth a damn, wondering why they would not have emcon in force. What would they be radiating for? just curious. As soon as they radiate on the topsail etc, they are able to be identified and triangulated, and even in a presumed low threat environment, they would not have a pressing reason to break emcon. Unless things have changed since the days we did that sort of stuff. I can imagine they would radiate the palm frond intermittently, at least in sector scans, but beyond that, what was the benefit to them, unless they knew that there was a specific threat. The story of the prior days events may give a reason for that, but golly, anything beyond a random search transmission would be asking for a bad day. May have some bias on that, my recollection from chasing boomers at the end of the cold war was the USSR boat drivers were pretty good, their rides were noisy, and the skimmers were happy to track us with their weapons at all times, they seemed quite competent then, prone to sunbathing on the fantail.
* The other Russian vessels have much shorter range anti-air missile systems and associated radars. There is basically now a very significant hole in the Russian coverage that I am sure is receiving attention by all sorts of people.
