Moskva down
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I don't think that there is one. The loss of face has already occurred.
The more practical question is what degree of, or level of, sanctions relief will be achievable via negotiations once a cease fire is arranged?
(And that will eventually come to pass, hopefully sooner than later).
The more practical question is what degree of, or level of, sanctions relief will be achievable via negotiations once a cease fire is arranged?
(And that will eventually come to pass, hopefully sooner than later).
I'm thinking that 'they' could simply declare Putin a traitor to Mother Russia, that intentionally mislead his country into this ill-fated attack, and arrest him (never to be seen from again). I recall it was quite the surprise when Khrushchev was deposed, perhaps it could happen again...
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I have moved the thread digression based on a political rant to Jet Blast.
DDG-37 the Mil Av forum isn't where you grind that political ax.
Please take that sort of topic to Jet Blast.
Further guidance is provided here
DDG-37 the Mil Av forum isn't where you grind that political ax.
Please take that sort of topic to Jet Blast.
Further guidance is provided here
I would have thought that there were NATO assets surveilling the whole area 24/7 from ground/air/sea and LEO, so headlines that the Moskva was being tracked are true but not really worthy of mention, as anything larger than a squirrel with a tin hat on would be getting attention from military AI...
Except for complete denial of obvious truths, Putin has irreversibly lost face already. No avoiding that. Survival should be his primary objective, not esteem. Best move for now would be to remove Russian forces from all Ukrainian territories, stand down and face the music re: sanctions, reparations and International Criminal Court.
Except for complete denial of obvious truths, Putin has irreversibly lost face already. No avoiding that. Survival should be his primary objective, not esteem. Best move for now would be to remove Russian forces from all Ukrainian territories, stand down and face the music re: sanctions, reparations and International Criminal Court.
Their lot is all or all, no nothing. It only ends in “Victory” or their own death by a self, close circle or public termination of their horrid existence. There are of course a few very rare exceptions, Idi Amin being one. I doubt Vladovich would accept exile in China or North Korea (probably the only 2 countries that would have him).
Vladovich’s “reign” is mirroring the late Romanov’s, it is only the Russian people that can stop him and his thieving Corruptocrats.
The whole point of the Russians putting a floating S300 battery with its radars & etc in that location is to emit like crazy, and shoot down everything they can reach over Ukraine or coming out of Ukraine. The Moskva gave the Russians coverage that they could not get from any other naval asset*, or from any available (non-threatened) shore location. The downside of being an emitter is that triangulation is a thing. And then somebody gets a precise ID and more accurate location and bad things happen.
* The other Russian vessels have much shorter range anti-air missile systems and associated radars. There is basically now a very significant hole in the Russian coverage that I am sure is receiving attention by all sorts of people.
* The other Russian vessels have much shorter range anti-air missile systems and associated radars. There is basically now a very significant hole in the Russian coverage that I am sure is receiving attention by all sorts of people.
I really think that the whole Russian fleet should be emitting, it helps the Ukrainians, who could use more help from the Russian Navy much as they have been assisted by the Russian army strategic planning and logistics system.
Well, that is a tactic, expensive on hulls but it is an option. A continuous emitter is going to be an invitation for the other side to assist in saving on fleet maintenance costs by scratching the skimmer from the fleet. The Russians have AEW capability, sort of, from within their own national boundaries that would seem to be without the risk of loss of hundreds of conscripted crew per target, and the ire from the families about being lied to by the Kremlin.
I really think that the whole Russian fleet should be emitting, it helps the Ukrainians, who could use more help from the Russian Navy much as they have been assisted by the Russian army strategic planning and logistics system.
I really think that the whole Russian fleet should be emitting, it helps the Ukrainians, who could use more help from the Russian Navy much as they have been assisted by the Russian army strategic planning and logistics system.
Suggesting that the Moskva should not have been emitting is like suggesting that any & all of the other S300 batteries should not be emitting in case they too become targets. That's not the way Integrated Air Defence Systems (IADS) work. Some things have to be emitters and take their chances. I don't think the Russians have done anything with their AEW assets on the south and east sides, so far I have only seen reports of them on the north side, often operating out of Belarus.
For Ukraine this is a very good result.
The Moskva ought to have been able to handle the scenario, at least up until impact. Providing air defence for a task force over a large area is exactly what she was designed for. From the very limited information we have the observed (poor) performance seems most odd. I suspect there is a lot of the story that has yet to come out.
Suggesting that the Moskva should not have been emitting is like suggesting that any & all of the other S300 batteries should not be emitting in case they too become targets. That's not the way Integrated Air Defence Systems (IADS) work. Some things have to be emitters and take their chances. I don't think the Russians have done anything with their AEW assets on the south and east sides, so far I have only seen reports of them on the north side, often operating out of Belarus.
For Ukraine this is a very good result.
Suggesting that the Moskva should not have been emitting is like suggesting that any & all of the other S300 batteries should not be emitting in case they too become targets. That's not the way Integrated Air Defence Systems (IADS) work. Some things have to be emitters and take their chances. I don't think the Russians have done anything with their AEW assets on the south and east sides, so far I have only seen reports of them on the north side, often operating out of Belarus.
For Ukraine this is a very good result.
She was not designed for that, she was designed to glass cannon herself into carrier task force. Her radar and AAW systems were desgined to her alive long enough against the carriers fighters long enough to launch her missiles. Her survival time in this situation was measured in hours.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Ukraine doing a bit of trolling…
Ukraine’s government has officially registered the Moskva cruiser wreck on the Black Sea bottom as a national underwater cultural heritage site
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Wonderful to see a sense of humour being demonstrated in such awful times. 
She was not designed for that, she was designed to glass cannon herself into carrier task force. Her radar and AAW systems were desgined to her alive long enough against the carriers fighters long enough to launch her missiles. Her survival time in this situation was measured in hours.
(The S300 etc on the Moskva ought not to have been just for show. I think there is a lot more about this engagement that we still don't know.)
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From the link I posted in jetblast.
The Russian Navy continues operating in the Black Sea, Operational Command South reports. It continues to block civilian shipping. The Black Sea Fleet conducts maritime surveillance, building a recognized maritime picture. It also searches the site where Russia’s Black Sea flagship Moskva sank. (The navy might be searching for traces of radiation from the nuclear weapons the warship most probably was carrying, or simply searching for missing sailors – HPM).
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I kinda surprised people thought the Moskva would survive anything. The US has demonstrated multiple times that correctly applied EW reduces the best missile air defense system to unguided rockets. I'm sure the UA got some equipment and help to do this.
That's with the assumption that the Moskva was even able to perform to begin with.
That's with the assumption that the Moskva was even able to perform to begin with.
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Russia Deploys Unusual 110-Year-Old Ship To Investigate Moskva Wreck
Kommuna set to investigate Moskva Wreck
I have photocopies of a proposal my grandfather submitted to the Admiralty for a submarine rescue ship in 1906, complete with drawings. (The originals I sent on permanent loan to the submarine museum)
The layout of the ship he proposed is exactly that of the Kommuna, but slightly smaller. (220' length, 40'beam, against 310 X 60). Submarines were pretty small in 1906.
Attached is a letter from the Admiralty, saying that he was to be commended for his efforts, but that it was not proposed to adopt them.
In the same letter, he proposed that submarines should have a bouy installed in the casing, which could be released from inside the boat if it could not.surface.
When I joined Coastal Command in 1964, I realised that every submarine in the world carried such a bouy,(Or more usually two.)
Perhaps I should demand royalties from the world's navies, and use the funds to endow a lifeboat in his name.
Since he made his proposal in 1906, and Russia stated Kommuna in 1911, perhaps there was a mole in The Admiralty.
The layout of the ship he proposed is exactly that of the Kommuna, but slightly smaller. (220' length, 40'beam, against 310 X 60). Submarines were pretty small in 1906.
Attached is a letter from the Admiralty, saying that he was to be commended for his efforts, but that it was not proposed to adopt them.
In the same letter, he proposed that submarines should have a bouy installed in the casing, which could be released from inside the boat if it could not.surface.
When I joined Coastal Command in 1964, I realised that every submarine in the world carried such a bouy,(Or more usually two.)
Perhaps I should demand royalties from the world's navies, and use the funds to endow a lifeboat in his name.
Since he made his proposal in 1906, and Russia stated Kommuna in 1911, perhaps there was a mole in The Admiralty.
Russia Deploys Unusual 110-Year-Old Ship To Investigate Moskva Wreck
Kommuna set to investigate Moskva WreckHope it goes the same way as Moskva if it even makes it that far.
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That reminds me of the USA secret recovery of a Soviet sub under the guise of mining manganese nodules off the seabed.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...law-180972154/
I would imagine weapons, technology, radar, codes etc are on the recovery list.
They will be buggered if the Ukrainians drop that one on top of it.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...law-180972154/
I would imagine weapons, technology, radar, codes etc are on the recovery list.
They will be buggered if the Ukrainians drop that one on top of it.
