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Moskva down

Old 19th Apr 2022, 11:23
  #301 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Xeptu
They don't know where they are, whether or not they are alive and regardless of what they were told or led to believe, a conscript would be very lucky indeed to serve aboard the Flagship.
Weird logic. I'm pretty sure that sailors know which ship they are on and will give the correct information to their parents, so when the parents say "he was a conscript on the Moskva, he hasn't phoned us and we can't find him in hospital", I'll take that as being correct.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 11:48
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Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan
Weird logic. I'm pretty sure that sailors know which ship they are on and will give the correct information to their parents, so when the parents say "he was a conscript on the Moskva, he hasn't phoned us and we can't find him in hospital", I'll take that as being correct.
Well I wouldn't, there is so much BS coming out of Russia it's hard to know for sure. The story and I concede there will be a few, was disputed by the Father himself, he says the story is false, my wife was not with me my sons name is not on any list that he saw and his Sons fate and whereabouts remains unknown, because they wouldn't give me any information at all.

P,S I have no doubt the conscript sailor thought he was to serve on the Moskva along with the other few thousand conscripts.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 12:00
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I cannot find the link but one report said a lot of the survivors lost limbs due to ammo exploding….

meanwhile…



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Old 19th Apr 2022, 12:07
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Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan
....
If it turns out to be the case that hundreds of sailors have been killed, then I think this is likely to unravel quickly for Putin, with bad - but unquantifiable - results.
I remember the shock of the loss of HMS Sheffield..but I don't think it weakened the goverment's, or the public's, resolve to carry on. I suspect the same effect in Russia not withstanding the size of casualty list.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 12:09
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So where is the "Turkish ship" that keeps getting mentioned? Why no identification, interviews or pictures? Does it exist?
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 12:17
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Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan
I think the Moskwa may be where the kremlin's lies begin to be exposed to harsh light and criticism - that's even without "nit-picking " about the claimed storm against the mill-pond conditions shown on the photos. This ship will have a much higher percentage of specialist, long-contract personnel that any infantry unit/regiment and these long-serving sailors will probably have made their homes, with their families in their home ports e.g. Sevastopol. There will therefore be a large nucleus of families who will know each other/will form support groups very quickly to push for answers about their loved ones. I suppose that there is also a good chance that they will get unofficial support/information from sailors in the local bureaucracy.

If it turns out to be the case that hundreds of sailors have been killed, then I think this is likely to unravel quickly for Putin, with bad - but unquantifiable - results.
I honestly doubt it will make any difference at all. They'll just drip feed information and use the powers of the state to suppress any dissent amongst relatives. Putin's regime has a very firm hand on the domestic situation.

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Old 19th Apr 2022, 12:20
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Re the survivors parade, it would appear the inspecting officer is none other than Anton Kuprin the Captain that was reported killed, I suppose being Easter has something to do with that.


https://twitter.com/search?q=Anton%2...rc=typed_query
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 13:11
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Is this the Moskva? Seems to look different?
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 13:16
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I remember the shock of the loss of HMS Sheffield..but I don't think it weakened the goverment's, or the public's, resolve to carry on. I suspect the same effect in Russia not withstanding the size of casualty list.
What casualty list?
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 13:23
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Re the survivors, if I remember correctly my mates were all kitted out with new uniforms before returning home from the Conveyor, also Chinooks collected the wounded off the returning ships and flew them direct to the hospitals dealing with their wounds, as the PM didn’t want the public and press welcoming them home to see lots of wounded soldiers being offloaded after the ships had docked. Plus it also meant they would get to treatment faster.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 13:35
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Originally Posted by Xeptu
The probability that those who served on Russia's Flagship are most likely to be the sons of senior officials and Military Personnel, where they thought they would be relatively safe. The notion that they included conscripts is a nonsense.
In Russian army NO sons of senior officials are serving in the army or navy. The sons of senior military personnel (not many) would be serving in the command headquarters, Moscow or regional, no need to take the hardship onboard. Military service in Russia is for poor people.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 13:49
  #312 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
Re the survivors parade, it would appear the inspecting officer is none other than Anton Kuprin the Captain that was reported killed, I suppose being Easter has something to do with that.


https://twitter.com/search?q=Anton%2...rc=typed_query

this is a freeze-frame of the video, this is Capt. Kuprin? More likely that file footage was used in a supposed post sinking photo op, then Capt Anton got resurrected. I mean to say, the chance that the Russians tell the truth about anything is more incredible than the possible resurrection at Easter of Capt Anton, which would you most likely believe... One is a miracle, the other is just not possible.

It could also be the Russian process of "care" for commanders that have had a bit of a problem in the field, just out of order slightly. If Capt Anton is alive at this time, can wonder for how long Putin will permit that before he really does become a fatality of the attack, witha. bit of time slip. But, R.I.P. Capt Anton, and the rest of your crew, you did your duty, as vile as that was, and you did not harm the brave defenders of Snake Island, for that you should be respected. For attacks on Odessa, you do own that Moscow.

Between the two images, if they are indeed both of the former captain, he at least got a star for his efforts. A better radar would probably have helped more.







Last edited by fdr; 19th Apr 2022 at 15:09.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 14:42
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In the linked information provided by Nutty.....there is a video purporting to be the instant the Moskva exploded.

The ship in the video (unless my old eyes deceive me....) is showing no signs of smoke or fire then suddenly does in fact suffer a tremendous explosion followed by large bits and pieces falling back to the sea.

If that is the Moskva and the explosion that ultimately sent it to the bottom....why no smoke, flame, or fire before the explosion.

It is daylight...not dark....and the missile attack was supposed to have occurred about 0130 local time.

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Old 19th Apr 2022, 15:01
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Originally Posted by SASless
In the linked information provided by Nutty.....there is a video purporting to be the instant the Moskva exploded.
.
it is not the moskva, see this from 0:37 onwards

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Old 19th Apr 2022, 16:11
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That answers the questions....shame I missed catching that while looking at the chain I saw it at.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 16:11
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Originally Posted by WideScreen
Good catch, and nice to see a high-res version of this picture.

Checking further, it looks like, the helo desk does have a big hole in it, with, as it seems, penetration from the top and a subsequent big explosion underneath the deck, maybe even 1 or 2 decks lower, inside the ship. Not to mention the crumbling and burn damage visible all over the port side on the deck below the helo deck.

Could it be Neptune Nr 2 did penetrate the helo deck and just blew up the whole inside of the stern section ? Given there will be not that many explosives and/or fuel around there, the only igniting stuff would be the neptune warhead itself with maybe some residual neptune fuel.

This could certainly explain the damage to the rear part of the ship and in front of the helo hangar, the structure below the rear radar dome itself. That part seems to be completely blown up from the inside out.
I think this gives the position (45°10’43.39″N, 30°55’30.54″E), which seems to be about 40-50m depth which is certainly within jackup depths. This is East of Snake Island which can be seen on the Google map if you zoom in enough. But whether that is the correct position I do not know. It certainly seems rather close to the Ukraine coast for the Russians to want to be carrying out any form of activity.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/...194!4d30.92515

The more southerly location where some folk are reporting AIS activity in 100m+ is definitely not the position above. It seems about 60km to the south. If she took approx 20-hours from impact to sinking, and if the wind was from the north, then that would be a drift of ~3km/h = 1.6 knots. But if it was only 10-hours from hit to sink, then that is 3kts drift. (Excellent timeline @jeepjeep btw.) (Recall the only timing info we have of the hit is the vauge "Maksym Marchenko said their forces hit Moskva in the late hours of 13 April 2022, with two R-360 Neptuneanti-ship missiles, and she was on fire around 7 p.m. local time (GMT+3)"., so we really are unsure still regarding time of impact. Might be possible to drift at those rates. Maybe some towing was indeed attempted.

(as a possibly-related aside TB2 use has seemingly been mostly a night-time affair)

If there was any drift the wind was likely the dominant effect vs the currents. Here is a research paper. That area might have had a weak north-setting current from the northern gyre, but seems somewhat inconclusive.
https://tos.org/oceanography/assets/...8-2_stanev.pdf

Many folk use offshore 'rig' terminology incorrectly, it is conceivable that they don't know the difference between a semi-sub and a jack-up. For sure if Moskva went down in the 100m+ zone then it will be semi subs they will be needing. Retreiving any special devices from a wreck of this nature at that depth has got to be awkward.

===
I've seen some reports of a third Neptune being involved, but no corroboration ,or indeed any public commentary as to how many were launched. No information out there as to what the TB2 did after the Neptune struck the Moskva. Or even if there were one or more TB2s. They might have been armed, who knows if they contributed with the smaller ordnance that they can carry. A Neptune hitting at that range (given that we don't know how far inland it originated from, or what doglegs were flown) would likely only have expended about half the fuel at the time of impact so remaining propellant would have been pretty significant contributor.
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 16:29
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One of the crew members said there had been three "detonations".

IG
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Old 19th Apr 2022, 16:39
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Originally Posted by petit plateau
I think this gives the position (45°10’43.39″N, 30°55’30.54″E), which seems to be about 40-50m depth which is certainly within jackup depths. This is East of Snake Island which can be seen on the Google map if you zoom in enough. But whether that is the correct position I do not know. It certainly seems rather close to the Ukraine coast for the Russians to want to be carrying out any form of activity.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/...194!4d30.92515
Currently marine traffic is showing a jackup in position 45.35597°N / 30.90305°E, which is 10Nm south of the SAR position published by naval news from 15.52UTC on the 13th.
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais...vessel:TAVRIDA

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Old 19th Apr 2022, 17:36
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Originally Posted by Recc
Currently marine traffic is showing a jackup in position 45.35597°N / 30.90305°E, which is 10Nm south of the SAR position published by naval news from 15.52UTC on the 13th.
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:344323/mmsi:273371830/imo763373/vessel:TAVRIDA
That location is consistent with that some people are saying, based on purported analysis of satellite heat imaging. This guy (H I Sutton - Covert Shores) puts the Moskva around that location.

Question - why would a Turkish vessel enter a live war zone to assist? Seems odd - but some day I'm guessing we'll learn more.



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Old 19th Apr 2022, 18:15
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Originally Posted by Imagegear
One of the crew members said there had been three "detonations".

IG
it could be a secondary as the ships munitions go up.
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