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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 18:38
  #641 (permalink)  
 
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"Pork barrelling in South Australia. That's what drives defence policy. Pathetic"

Same everywhere I'm afraid - F-4 Phantoms for the UK is a classic example.
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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 21:07
  #642 (permalink)  
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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 21:32
  #643 (permalink)  
 
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“This program will deliver to the Royal Australian Navy 12 regionally-superior Attack-class submarines which are specially designed for Australia’s unique conditions.”

This from Naval Group early this year yet the bombshell from Australia's PM is that these submarines would be obsolete before they hit the water. If this spat gets ever more diplomatically ugly, detailing the extraordinary claims of block obsolescence of French submarines before they enter service will deliver only one winner. The CCP.
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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 22:08
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Originally Posted by Gnadenburg View Post
“This program will deliver to the Royal Australian Navy 12 regionally-superior Attack-class submarines which are specially designed for Australia’s unique conditions.”

This from Naval Group early this year yet the bombshell from Australia's PM is that these submarines would be obsolete before they hit the water. If this spat gets ever more diplomatically ugly, detailing the extraordinary claims of block obsolescence of French submarines before they enter service will deliver only one winner. The CCP.

NG are submitting the barracuda with AIP into contention for the indian program. final 4 are the barracuda, russian, South korean and spanish. So we might still see how good or bad it could have been
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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 23:05
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Macron was playing with toys in his backyard when that happened, but carry on.
But still growing up in a culture that thinks that form of behavior is acceptable. Immersed in a culture and a nationalistic mind set that thinks France is the dominant nation on the planet if only the rest of the world would accept that. Macron's great great grandparents would not have been born when Napoleon set out to demonstrate that thinking but it is still the attitude the French take to the world stage. Churchill was correct in destroying the French fleet at Mers El Kébir and Australia was correct in dumping the French subs. Both were done for the strategic interests of their respective countries.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 01:40
  #646 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
But still growing up in a culture that thinks that form of behavior is acceptable. Immersed in a culture and a nationalistic mind set that thinks France is the dominant nation on the planet if only the rest of the world would accept that. Macron's great great grandparents would not have been born when Napoleon set out to demonstrate that thinking but it is still the attitude the French take to the world stage. Churchill was correct in destroying the French fleet at Mers El Kébir and Australia was correct in dumping the French subs. Both were done for the strategic interests of their respective countries.
How is it you know that blowing up non combatant ships is accepted by the French culture in 2021?

I don’t believe any nation is that singularly minded that it’s culture as you put it condones sinking ships, now or then.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 04:00
  #647 (permalink)  
 
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Macron was playing with toys in his backyard when that happened, but carry on
Comprehension dear WC, where was it suggested Macron was responsible? Merely a reference to how France has dealt with issues in the past, could mention the Israel patrol boats and Mirages also.
Churchill was correct in destroying the French fleet at Mers El Kébir
WC might want to read up on the Vichy.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 04:17
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I don’t believe any nation is that singularly minded that it’s culture as you put it condones sinking ships, now or then.
Well the French didn't vote Mitterand out for engaging in what was described as "State sponsored terrorism" so they did condone it then and IMHO would condone it now. You don't believe it, well that would be YHO.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 06:25
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How can you criticise France? An honest and upfront nation. They would never lie and deceive. It is an insult to France to cast such dispersions.

I believe them when the French government denied all knowledge of the ACT OF WAR. In the operation to bomb and sink the Greenpeace flagship Rainbow Warrior.
https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/worl...arrior-attack/
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 06:37
  #650 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Comprehension dear WC, where was it suggested Macron was responsible? Merely a reference to how France has dealt with issues in the past, could mention the Israel patrol boats and Mirages also.WC might want to read up on the Vichy.
Comprehension old boy. I never suggested you did. Merely pointed out Macron wasn’t politically of that era.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 07:13
  #651 (permalink)  
 
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Comprehension old boy. I never suggested you did. Merely pointed out Macron wasn’t politically of that era
That has to be one of the worlds greatest revelations, a bit like saying JFK wasn't politically active in WWI. A pointless post you made, just as this is.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 11:01
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Don’t get me wrong… I hate Morrison as much as the next guy.

But France need to get over it. Australia exited, at an agreed exit point, which was written into the contract and agreed to by the French.

Their conduct since (immediately recalling ambassador for a few days, public comments claiming Australia lied, and general throwing of toys out of the pram) has been like watching a two year old throw a tantrum.

Its a pity they didn’t fight this hard during WW2.

Rest assured, if the ADF needs a new contract to supply white surrender flags, they’ll give the French a call.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 19:03
  #653 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete View Post
Don’t get me wrong… I hate Morrison as much as the next guy.

But France need to get over it. Australia exited, at an agreed exit point, which was written into the contract and agreed to by the French.

Their conduct since (immediately recalling ambassador for a few days, public comments claiming Australia lied, and general throwing of toys out of the pram) has been like watching a two year old throw a tantrum.

Its a pity they didn’t fight this hard during WW2.

Rest assured, if the ADF needs a new contract to supply white surrender flags, they’ll give the French a call.
Do not worry mate. France is the most successful military power in history. Today, French military would take Australia in less than a week, even it is at 18000 Km away.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...tory_of_France

And , if we had a true president , and not a sodomite, Australia would be a little more respectfull.

Nb I do not care about the subs, if they will be french , US, UK, or Chineses .
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 19:30
  #654 (permalink)  
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It is true that France has fought in more major European conflicts than any other European nation - mainly because most were fought in France.

The UK, on the other hand, tended to fight further afield.

It was DeGaulle who remarked that the thing he most respected about the British was that they always had the sense to fight their wars in someone else’s country….
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Old 4th Nov 2021, 00:03
  #655 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by balboa1968 View Post
Do not worry mate. France is the most successful military power in history. Today, French military would take Australia in less than a week, even it is at 18000 Km away.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...tory_of_France

And , if we had a true president , and not a sodomite, Australia would be a little more respectfull.

Nb I do not care about the subs, if they will be french , US, UK, or Chineses .
This could be an interesting thought exercise.

When does your week start? From leaving France or upon landfall?
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Old 4th Nov 2021, 03:11
  #656 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by balboa1968 View Post
Do not worry mate. France is the most successful military power in history. Today, French military would take Australia in less than a week, even it is at 18000 Km away.
I think this is a principal issue with your submarines. Nobody really knows whose side you would be on. Your China policy is soft and ambiguous and France's military commitment to the region has been unexceptional.

The submarine deal was a mistake. We were lied to about timeframes, capabilities, offsets and industry participation. Australia was gouged as no Plan B. We pursued a Plan B last year and the French knew this- they just didn't think nukes would be an option. Then Macron labelled our PM a liar and when evidence to the contrary, French diplomats crying afoul.

The whole affair has fallen predictably into the hands of the CCP. They are on your side BTW. Mortified at Australia not committing to French submarines. I wonder why?

Australia now has to investigate any French-made military equipment in service. This dispute has gone far enough to suggest supply and support chains vulnerable in the future.

Last edited by Gnadenburg; 4th Nov 2021 at 04:30.
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Old 4th Nov 2021, 04:19
  #657 (permalink)  
 
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Looking at the French helicopters in Oz service, I can understand why we didn't want their submarines either.

Scomo is doing the right think for our country, tough luck for France that they are not getting our billion$.
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Old 4th Nov 2021, 05:36
  #658 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gnadenburg View Post
I think this is a principal issue with your submarines. Nobody really knows whose side you would be on. Your China policy is soft and ambiguous and France's military commitment to the region has been unexceptional.

The submarine deal was a mistake. We were lied to about timeframes, capabilities, offsets and industry participation. Australia was gouged as no Plan B. We pursued a Plan B last year and the French knew this- they just didn't think nukes would be an option. Then Macron labelled our PM a liar and when evidence to the contrary, French diplomats crying afoul.

The whole affair has fallen predictably into the hands of the CCP. They are on your side BTW. Mortified at Australia not committing to French submarines. I wonder why?

Australia now has to investigate any French-made military equipment in service. This dispute has gone far enough to suggest supply and support chains vulnerable in the future.
Agree.
France is not the aggrieved party. Australia is.
Lesson ? Forget any military procurement deal with France for the foreseeable future.
The mystery is why anybody thought the deal was a good one in the first place.
The really interesting back story that I haven’t heard much about is how the US and UK were convinced to hand over the Crown Jewels of submarine technology. It may still not get past Congress.
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Old 4th Nov 2021, 07:25
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Originally Posted by Alt Flieger View Post
Agree.
Lesson ? Forget any military procurement deal with France for the foreseeable future.
Honestly still surprised we haven't cancelled the open bases agreement with the french.

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Old 4th Nov 2021, 09:41
  #660 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by rattman View Post
Honestly still surprised we haven't cancelled the open bases agreement with the french.
If they make a base in Pt. Hedland, then please, carry on...
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