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AUKUS

Old 30th Oct 2021, 12:45
  #621 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Video Mixdown View Post
Indeed. Many internal modules, like the command deck, are also built separately then slid into the partially assembled hull.



The UK builds SSN & SSBN in a small town in NE England. I fail to see why so many hold the Australians to be incapable of replicating these facilities. True, the reactors and some other internal systems will have to be imported, but the rest is just marine engineering. What's the problem?
"Events, dear boy," and the experience to deal with them. The UK paused submarine building and rapidly found that without any work for the builders all the experience had been paid off. The vertical re- learning curve for Astute meant EB had to come and help BAE out.
I expect the expertise from building the Collins boats has also been dissipated so there will be a lot of things to re-learn, fast. The experience now exists in BAE and EB, but whether there is enough of it to expand from two build operations to three I don't know. Much depends on timescale for the first two or three boats. Go slowly and you can train Aussies in UK and US to assemble and to build in Oz. Be in a hurry and you need to buy ready made, or learn hard and expensive lessons as you go.
You also need a submarine design capability, but upkeep of the Collins boats should have retained that base expertise. Whether it can be expanded fast enough to both keep the existing boats safe and capable whilst sorting out the design work to incorporate Australian content in the new boats is moot.
None of this says that SSN building cannot be done in Oz. Only that it will take time, probably more
time than the pollies want, and it will not be cheap. After all, SSK building has been done before and no one is suggesting an Australian power plant.

N
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Old 30th Oct 2021, 12:47
  #622 (permalink)  
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Old 31st Oct 2021, 11:11
  #623 (permalink)  
 
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I saw a link to this on LinkedIn a few moments ago: Australia looking at existing design to ‘accelerate’ delivery of nuclear-powered submarines - The Sydney Morning Herald

Vice Admiral Meade said the government was “looking at a mature design” and that could “accelerate the delivery of the first submarine in Australia in the 2030s”. He said “at the moment the aperture is wide” but the taskforce over the next 18 months will “narrow down the aperture and get us to the optimal pathway”.


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Old 1st Nov 2021, 01:01
  #624 (permalink)  
 
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I'd call this an escalation. It was on the world stage and puts it at another level. It was not just for domestic consumption. The dummy spit to end all dummy spits. I'm still surprised by Australian civil response. I would have declared war by now.

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Old 1st Nov 2021, 01:35
  #625 (permalink)  
 
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Thing is though - it's probably true.
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 02:02
  #626 (permalink)  
 
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But who cares if we offend a Frenchman? I blow my nose at you! I fart in your general direction!
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 05:51
  #627 (permalink)  
 
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Diplomacy is to do and say the nastiest thing in the nicest way.
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 10:21
  #628 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by tartare View Post
Thing is though - it's probably true.
Well, it’s back in Morrisons court now. Gloves are off so he can clearly release whatever details about how and when the French were advised, or he’s not got anything and then you’ll be right.

Personally, if that was me, I’d detail the timeline of events and go on to list the grievances and failings of the NG Subs.
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 10:46
  #629 (permalink)  
 
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Morrison is starting to say what happened. It is well documented, that Australia was looking at canceling/not going forward with the contract some 18 months ago. A plan B

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Old 1st Nov 2021, 10:48
  #630 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Buster Hyman View Post
Well, it’s back in Morrisons court now. Gloves are off so he can clearly release whatever details about how and when the French were advised, or he’s not got anything and then you’ll be right.

Personally, if that was me, I’d detail the timeline of events and go on to list the grievances and failings of the NG Subs.
From the AFR https://www.afr.com/politics/federal...p594xrEmmanuel Macron warned Scott Morrison in June “I don’t like losing” after the Prime Minister informed him over dinner that Australia felt the French submarines were not fit for purpose.

In September, two days before Mr Morrison announced the formation of the AUKUS alliance and was trying to set up a call with the French President to inform him of Australia’s decision to scrap the subs contract, Mr Macron messaged the Prime Minister to ask: “Should I expect good or bad news for our joint submarines ambitions?”

On the day before the announcement, Mr Macron refused to take Mr Morrison’s call which, the federal government believes, was because he knew what it was about.


Sounds a lot like what desperate X's do, if I dont pickup the phone we aren't broken up
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 11:12
  #631 (permalink)  
 
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February 2021.
https://indaily.com.au/news/2021/02/...y-february-25/
Prime Minister Scott Morrison has ordered a top level study to look at how to terminate the $90 billion contract, while also investigating alternative options to contract Swedish Shipbuilders Saab Kockums or renovate the Australian Navy’s current Collins Class fleet.

January 14, 2020
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fede...14-p53rd2.html
The audit report also reveals that during negotiations over a key agreement with French company Naval Group in 2018, the federal government's hand-picked advisory group floated the idea of walking away from the contract with the French shipbuilder. The Naval Shipbuilding Advisory Board told Defence that it should consider whether proceeding with the project was in the national interest "even if negotiations succeeded" with the Strategic Partnering Agreement.


Australia Reportedly Looking At An Alternative To Its Costly New French-Designed Submarines
JANUARY 19, 2021
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ned-submarines
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 17:06
  #632 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rattman View Post
From the AFR https://www.afr.com/politics/federal...p594xrEmmanuel Macron warned Scott Morrison in June “I don’t like losing” after the Prime Minister informed him over dinner that Australia felt the French submarines were not fit for purpose.

In September, two days before Mr Morrison announced the formation of the AUKUS alliance and was trying to set up a call with the French President to inform him of Australia’s decision to scrap the subs contract, Mr Macron messaged the Prime Minister to ask: “Should I expect good or bad news for our joint submarines ambitions?”

On the day before the announcement, Mr Macron refused to take Mr Morrison’s call which, the federal government believes, was because he knew what it was about.


Sounds a lot like what desperate X's do, if I dont pickup the phone we aren't broken up
Macron is performing a very obvious "diplomatic flounce".

Given the pressure on him domestically his response is exactly as to be expected.

The one thing you can always count on French leaders to do when they don't get their own way is throw their toys out the pram. De Gaulle was a past master at it.
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 17:39
  #633 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by golder View Post
Morrison is starting to say what happened. It is well documented, that Australia was looking at canceling/not going forward with the contract some 18 months ago. A plan B

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI28p7OXRx0
Quite impressed by a politician that can speak for 10 minutes on such a topic without any notes.
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 19:19
  #634 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Davef68 View Post
Quite impressed by a politician that can speak for 10 minutes on such a topic without any notes.
Skills honed during daily parliamentary question time. I've never seen an aussie politician use a teleprompter. Reading a prepared speech, which is a basic in the US.
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 21:26
  #635 (permalink)  
 
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”Mr Morrison said the government would not “settle for less” and accept submarines that would be “obsolete before they hit the water“


This is in the detail yet in my opinion monumental. What advances are the CCP making in ASW to make the Barracuda obsolete by 2038?

Macron is proving to be just another French saboteur of alliances. He's out of line and a mug.
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 22:51
  #636 (permalink)  
 
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Just remember that the PLA(N) submarines might not be the super stealthy boats everyone seems to fear...






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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 04:33
  #637 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.9news.com.au/national/sc...6-7d619e3ba97e
After he was branded a liar on camera by President Emmanuel Macron, Prime Minister Scott Morrison hit back, claiming the leaked text message, obtained by the Australian Financial Review, showed the French knew the submarine contract was at risk.

Two days before the AUKUS coalition was set to be announced, with Mr Morrison reportedly trying to set up a call with Mr Macron to inform him the submarine deal was off, Mr Macron messaged Australia's prime minister to ask: "Should I expect good or bad news for our joint submarines ambitions?"

"I must say that I think the statements that were made questioning Australia's integrity and the slurs that have been placed on Australia, not me, I've got broad shoulders. I can deal with that," he said.
"But those slurs, I'm not going to cop sledging at Australia.
"I'm not going to cop that on behalf of Australians."
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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 05:56
  #638 (permalink)  
 
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Macron is just using theatrics as a political ploy to play to the home crowd. The fallout would seem to be that Macron is the one lying. If he really has a problem he can send some members from the action branch of the Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure to plant some limpet mines on a Australian war ship in Sydney Harbour and perhaps kill some people in the process. Something they've done previously when upset (Rainbow Warrior in Aukland Harbour).
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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 06:54
  #639 (permalink)  
 
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The original mistake was signing a contract with France in the first place. Turnbull and the RAN screwed up. Why would you do it ? Only if you haven’t read history. Macron ? Think De Gaulle post WW2.
Not even the pretence of cooperative behaviour. Looking after number one always.
Soryu class was the obvious choice. Australian propensity for insisting on modifying everything to “local requirements “ screwed the deal.
We dont demand variations or home build for the F35 so why for subs?
Oh I forgot . Pork barrelling in South Australia. Thats what drives defence policy. Pathetic
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Old 2nd Nov 2021, 15:47
  #640 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Macron is just using theatrics as a political ploy to play to the home crowd. The fallout would seem to be that Macron is the one lying. If he really has a problem he can send some members from the action branch of the Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure to plant some limpet mines on a Australian war ship in Sydney Harbour and perhaps kill some people in the process. Something they've done previously when upset (Rainbow Warrior in Aukland Harbour).
Macron was playing with toys in his backyard when that happened, but carry on.
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