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'Non-Traditional' Aircrew

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'Non-Traditional' Aircrew

Old 1st Nov 2019, 19:42
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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For anyone with a taste for history and irony, the above very public debate is but a continuation of all the other debates regarding broadening the issue of flying badges. For a very entertaining and informative read, please see Observers and Navigators: And Other Non-Pilot ... C. G. Jefford.
In my opinion it deserves a place on the bookshelf of everyone interested in the Royal Air Force.
There are several editions, the most recent is significantly updated [and may need a further update by the looks of the debate].
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Old 1st Nov 2019, 19:55
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beardy View Post
That's an appalling use of Cabin Crew.
Historically they were recruited into the ground role primarily, and some volunteered to become CC. Now in efforts to aid recruitment, and with the creeping contracterising of messes, they are being pushed more into the CC role and that is how the RAF sells the role.
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Old 1st Nov 2019, 20:48
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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They are not there to feed and water you (though no doubt will willingly do so). They are there to save your life, and in doing so will no doubt risk theirs.
Absolute b0ll0x, there is nothing, yes nothing, that Cabin Crew could do for me to save my life over other human beings - this would be First Aid if I take a funny turn and there will be people that are equally First Aid trained amongst the Aircrew and other passengers have. They are entirely there to feed, water and keep the passengers calm - that is their primary role, everything else is secondary. Many passengers may well be way more qualified in medical matters and sea survival than someone that has done a dinghy drill and a few weeks of Cabin Crew training. Now I get Babs Harrison getting a GC but there are also countless others that receive GCs for their bravery in similar circumstances - it is not the fact she was a Flight Attendant, it is the fact that she was an incredibly brave woman. Here is another GC, awarded to a passenger on a Sunderland Flying Boat - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivor_Gillett. So really it is the act of bravery and not the fact of whether you are a Flight Attendant, Air Steward or Cabin Crew or not.
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Old 1st Nov 2019, 21:09
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Once again you illustrate my point better than I can, LJ. Once again thank you. It is little wonder that such attitudes exist when it is common knowledge that recruitment is from amongst Messing Staff. The difference between a Mess and an aircraft should be clear enough to aircrew at least. One moves with very considerable speed and contains large quantities of highly inflammable fuel, the other is for tearing to pieces and paying for the damage on your Mess Bills. Mess Staff are indeed for feeding and watering you, and clearing up the Mess later (see what I just did there?). Cabin Crew are for saving your life, particularly in an emergency evacuation, whether you want them to or not. When they are not doing that they can indeed feed and water you.

The logic of your posts suggest that you are in denial, but then it seems so is the RAF. You are welcome to your own opinions, the RAF is not. It needs to abide by the mandated instructions of the Regulatory Authority which annoyingly insists that Cabin Crew are Aircrew. Aircrew are awarded Brevets so that there is no doubt that they are Aircrew. It seems there is much doubt on that score. It needs to be corrected.

Cabin Crew are Aircrew! Get used to the idea!
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Old 1st Nov 2019, 21:47
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Not a flying badge

Originally Posted by Chugalug2 View Post
DS, could you spell out for me the significance of "A ground trade with an airborne role"? What does that mean? What ground trade do they practice? It seems to me all this is a way of having cabin crew who aren't really aircrew. Well I'm afraid that they are, and if the tick boxes require that RAF aircrew attend OASC, complete MAGS, and have more than 3 weeks training for Voyager CC (sounds like a good idea!) then so be it. While that is being tweaked, perhaps the requirement for RAF aircrew to be SNCOs/WOs/Commissioned Officers might be looked at again, so that CC can be aircrew with junior ranks, if Sgt stripes are a chevron too far. I certainly don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is this concept that they are crew but not aircrew. They are aircrew, and I don't think that the MAA will be changing their mind about that anytime soon.

I agree that pax know they are to carry out all crew instructions, the issue rather for RAF CCs is with the patronising attitudes expressed by their fellow aircrew as within this very thread. They are not there to feed and water you (though no doubt will willingly do so). They are there to save your life, and in doing so will no doubt risk theirs. You should get away swiftly from the foot of the slide (unless instructed otherwise). They stay behind onboard until every other pax is accounted for.

Time now for the RAF to acknowledge unambiguously that its cabin crew are indeed aircrew and award them an aircrew brevet accordingly!

Im sure the RAF Would he happy to award them a brevet,

1. Once they have the requisite qualifications ( academically) equal to non commissioned aircrew at present or an equivalent entry standard to aircrew branches.

2. Attend OASC ( like all other non commissioned aircrew do )

3. Pass a CFS accredited flying course to be awarded a flying Badge IAW with QR206 ( like all other non communised aircrew do)


The “awarding” of a brevet retrospectively would have zero merit. Im sure the MAA could try and persuade 22 group and the Central Flying School otherwise but all it would do is de- Value the existing cadre of aircrew brevets if awarded for doing merely nothing.
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Old 1st Nov 2019, 21:55
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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I will just note that BA Cabin Crew initial training is 6 weeks.
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Old 1st Nov 2019, 22:11
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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I’ve been out of the RAF for too long to have a valid opinion on badges/brevets/aircrew qualifications etc. I make the assumption that Voyager’s passenger compartment is pretty much the same in terms of seating, doors, slides, safety eqpt etc as similar civilian ac.

Do I assume then that when LJ goes on hols and hears someone from the flight deck say ‘welcome aboard. The CC are here for your comfort but primarily your safety .......’. LJ says ‘nah that’s a load of bollox. I’m sure we could manage to get out of this thing if it turned into a burning wreck without any help from these purveyors of sandwiches and water’.

Of course it gets played down a bit because we don’t want people to think it might really happen, but when a 777 crashes in Dubai because of some poor automation design and a bit of an aircrew cock up it’s the glamorous young boys and girls who have to put the trolleys away and get 282 pax out of an ac that’s about to explode in quick time. Of course they have a comfort/feeding/watering role but primarily it’s about safety safety safety.

Last edited by deltahotel; 1st Nov 2019 at 23:20.
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Old 1st Nov 2019, 22:23
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet View Post
Absolute b0ll0x, there is nothing, yes nothing, that Cabin Crew could do for me to save my life over other human beings - this would be First Aid if I take a funny turn and there will be people that are equally First Aid trained amongst the Aircrew and other passengers have. They are entirely there to feed, water and keep the passengers calm - that is their primary role, everything else is secondary. Many passengers may well be way more qualified in medical matters and sea survival than someone that has done a dinghy drill and a few weeks of Cabin Crew training. Now I get Babs Harrison getting a GC but there are also countless others that receive GCs for their bravery in similar circumstances - it is not the fact she was a Flight Attendant, it is the fact that she was an incredibly brave woman. Here is another GC, awarded to a passenger on a Sunderland Flying Boat - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivor_Gillett. So really it is the act of bravery and not the fact of whether you are a Flight Attendant, Air Steward or Cabin Crew or not.
LJ , I hope you have never operated a passenger-carrying aircraft - because your attitude towards the role of other crew-members would be a CRM nightmare.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 00:00
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Brain Potter View Post
LJ , I hope you have never operated a passenger-carrying aircraft - because your attitude towards the role of other crew-members would be a CRM nightmare.
Brian, I am not questioning that they are part of a team, I’m just contesting their proposed definition as Aircrew. They perform stewarding duties in an aircraft and mimic safety briefs to the passengers. Their training for safety is pretty superficial (3 weeks or 6 weeks - either way, that falls well short of the training that Aircrew receive). They are called Cabin Crew - others call them Air Stewards (we used to), Air Hostesses, Flight Attendants and other such - the clue is normally in the title! They also receive RRP(FC) - for Flying Crew - whereas Aircrew receive RRP(F) - for Flying - as Aircrew. The rates are different due to the complexity of the role and the employment opportunities outside.

As for Chugalug - keep smoking whatever you’re smoking fella, if it keeps your world in focus for you...
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 00:43
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Time for bed, said Zebidee.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 01:03
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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LJ, you illustrate entirely why RAF Cabin Crew should be aircrew and wear an appropriate Brevet. You see them as airborne waiters, the various appellations that you list underline to you your view of them. What would you have them called then? The Emergency Response Team? Airlines or Air Forces alike don't wish to over egg the possible emergencies that pax might be confronted with, so a familiar emergency brief (so familiar that many ignore it), a mention of the seat back emergency information sheet, and that's it.

It isn't for the Cabin Crew. They must be prepared on every take off for an Abandon at V1 followed by the safe rapid evacuation of all pax. They must expect to deal with Toilet Fires (infamous for rapidly spreading smoke and lethal fumes if someone has dropped their illicit butt into the waste bin there). They must know what to do if there is a loud bang, the cabin fogs out, and the ubiquitous rubber jungle appears. They must know what to do in a hundred other such scenarios in the midst of dolling out meals, drinks, landing cards, whatever. In other words they have to be properly trained for their primary role of saving lives. They also need to know all about the routine stuff of course, and how all that can be learned in 3 weeks is a puzzle. I can only suppose it to be a very intense course!

Many civvie pax also see airline cabin crew as simply there to wait upon them, it is true. But they have the excuse that they are not aircrew themselves. Aircrew should know better and I sincerely trust that your attitude is the exception rather than the RAF norm, fella.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 01:55
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KBW10101 View Post



Im sure the RAF Would he happy to award them a brevet,

1. Once they have the requisite qualifications ( academically) equal to non commissioned aircrew at present or an equivalent entry standard to aircrew branches.

2. Attend OASC ( like all other non commissioned aircrew do )

3. Pass a CFS accredited flying course to be awarded a flying Badge IAW with QR206 ( like all other non communised aircrew do)


The “awarding” of a brevet retrospectively would have zero merit. Im sure the MAA could try and persuade 22 group and the Central Flying School otherwise but all it would do is de- Value the existing cadre of aircrew brevets if awarded for doing merely nothing.
It seems pretty clear that the RAF would not be happy to award CC an Aircrew Brevet, but happy or not, CC are aircrew, the Regulator says so! You say that CC must jump through the various paper hoops demanded to become RAF aircrew and it would appear that they do not do so now. Thus they do not qualify as trained aircrew, as required by the RTS of the various a/c they man. Therefore all such aircraft are being operated outside of their RTS and should be grounded until fully trained aircrew are available to man them. All this because an obdurate operator will not submit to the mandated rules of the Regulator!

All it needs is for the RAF to recognise its Cabin Crew as Aircrew iaw the MAA regulations. It really is that simple. All this tosh about de-valuing the "existing cadre of Aircrew Brevets" is just that, utter tosh. A Pilot is not a Navigator, is not an ALM, is not Cabin Crew. The are all different (and should indeed have their own Brevets) but they are all aircrew.

If the MAA demanded that the cabin carpets be hoovered in flight and required a "Flight Cleaner" as part of every crew then that Cleaner would be Aircrew; headscarf, drooping fag, Nora Batty stockings, and all. Aircrew isn't a status, it's a description, and RAF Aircrew are identified by the wearing of a Brevet. So give CC a Brevet.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 03:26
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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They are entirely there to feed, water and keep the passengers calm - that is their primary role, everything else is secondary.
That's not true and it may be the root of your misunderstanding.

When carrying passengers :
Can Voyager despatch with an unserviceable galley and no refreshments : yes
Can Voyager despatch without cabin crew : no

Last edited by beardy; 2nd Nov 2019 at 04:19.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 09:02
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Originally Posted by beardy View Post
That's not true and it may be the root of your misunderstanding.

When carrying passengers :
Can Voyager despatch with an unserviceable galley and no refreshments : yes
Can Voyager despatch without cabin crew : no
No cabin crew on a Voyager AAR sortie... even if carrying passengers to watch the jousting.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 09:21
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Chug, your insistence to keep calling a flying badge a ‘brevet’ just reinforces your errant point of view. A brevet is a certificate, ticket or diploma - and I suspect that Cabin Crew already do get a course completion certificate. As for your gender stereotyping of cleaning staff - shame on you.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 10:24
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet View Post
No cabin crew on a Voyager AAR sortie... even if carrying passengers to watch the jousting.
Nonsense! When around 18 of us went flying on a Voyager AAR trip a couple of months ago, there certainly were cabin crew. One was a Cpl Air Steward and the other was our host. For take-off and landing we were constrained to sit in a certain area and both adjacent doors were manned. MAA rules sanction the number of cabin crew required for such flights.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 10:33
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet View Post
Chug, your insistence to keep calling a flying badge a ‘brevet’ just reinforces your errant point of view. A brevet is a certificate, ticket or diploma - and I suspect that Cabin Crew already do get a course completion certificate. As for your gender stereotyping of cleaning staff - shame on you.
Your insistence on repeatedly correcting the word Brevet for Flying Badge and your reversion to PC mode shows that you've run out of argument. Hardly surprising given the thinness of it...
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 10:38
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet View Post
No cabin crew on a Voyager AAR sortie... even if carrying passengers to watch the jousting.
That would be an interesting risk assessment and justification.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 12:08
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet View Post
Chug, your insistence to keep calling a flying badge a ‘brevet’ just reinforces your errant point of view. A brevet is a certificate, ticket or diploma - .
If I may quote myself from the 'Observer' thread in 2012


Interestingly MOD call the Pilots wings a 'Badge' and the rear crew wing a 'Brevet'

Qualification Badges
0712. Flying & Parachute Badges. This section deals with those flying badges (QR J727 & 728) and Parachute badges (QR 434 – 436)
currently in issue
BADGE DESCRIPTION
Pilot. Wings of drab silk embroidery with monogram 'RAF' in centre, surrounded by laurel leaf of brown silk and
surmounted by a crown – on dark blue melton cloth.
Navigator. The letter 'N' of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm)
long – on dark blue melton cloth.

Air Electronics Officer ]
or Operator (AE) ] As for Navigator, but with alternative letters, in brackets. (See Note)
Air Engineer (E) ]
Air Loadmaster (LM) ]

Note. With effect 1 Apr 03 the range of 5 aircrew brevets for rear crew personnel were replaced by the single rear crew brevet (see below).
Those aircrew who were already qualified to wear old style individual brevets can opt to wear the new brevet or retain the old style but there will
be no further provisioning of the current brevet.
Rear Aircrew Brevet. The monogram ‘RAF’ in drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk, surmounted by a crown with an
outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth. Introduced 1 Apr 03 to replace
Navigator, Air Electronics Officer/Operator, Air Engineer and Air Loadmaster. (See Note Above).
Fighter Controller (FC). The letters ‘FC’ of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35
cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Airborne Technician (AT). The letters ‘AT’ of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35
cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth.
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Old 2nd Nov 2019, 14:17
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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NOT a Flying Badge

Originally Posted by BEagle View Post
Nonsense! When around 18 of us went flying on a Voyager AAR trip a couple of months ago, there certainly were cabin crew. One was a Cpl Air Steward and the other was our host. For take-off and landing we were constrained to sit in a certain area and both adjacent doors were manned. MAA rules sanction the number of cabin crew required for such flights.


There are NO Cabin Crew on an AAR sortie.

Crew composition is as follows:

2x Pilots
1x MSO /WSOp/ Non- commissioned Aircew / whatever you'd like to call them.

Therefore the Voyager CAN dispatch without cabin crew.
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