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UK unveils new next generation fighter jet, the 'Tempest'

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UK unveils new next generation fighter jet, the 'Tempest'

Old 14th Aug 2023, 07:43
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Originally Posted by Video Mixdown
An entirely predictable opinion. I suppose it'd be rude to ask if you've got any facts to back it up?
The existence of the "Partnering Feasibility Study" does not exactly leave me with the impression that the UK is confident in the affordability of Tempest. Yes, a lot of it will be about relationship management with the Saudis, but the existence of such an activity would be less likely if the programme was on a sound financial footing. There will obviously be people in Whitehall strongly opposed to such a partnership, for reasons of security if nothing else, so ask yourself why anyone would argue against them, and with enough force to convince ministers to leave the door cracked open in this way.
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Old 14th Aug 2023, 08:05
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"I suppose it'd be rude to ask if you've got any facts to back it up?"

Look at the history of the last 50 years - - almost all serious European military hardware has been produced by consortiums of countries and several of those failed because of costs/work share issues
The UK and Italy are middling economic entities - Japan is richer but has rarely participated in multi- national developments. The estimated costs are already way north of 25 Bn - up to 40 Bn - which is way above any indicative long term funding. We can't even afford to buy F-35's at a reasonable rate - how do you think we can afford a completely new aircraft?

look at the comments here
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/temp...jet-programme/

The current 2Bn is really to keep the design teams at BAe etc ticking over
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Old 14th Aug 2023, 08:50
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Originally Posted by Easy Street
The existence of the "Partnering Feasibility Study" does not exactly leave me with the impression that the UK is confident in the affordability of Tempest. Yes, a lot of it will be about relationship management with the Saudis, but the existence of such an activity would be less likely if the programme was on a sound financial footing. There will obviously be people in Whitehall strongly opposed to such a partnership, for reasons of security if nothing else, so ask yourself why anyone would argue against them, and with enough force to convince ministers to leave the door cracked open in this way.
Security.... isn't Saudi Arabia supposed to be our strategic security partner in the middle east?
.Edit. It has been stared that BAE Warton would not exist in its current format were it not for the Saudi orders and updates of Tornado and Typhoon.
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Old 14th Aug 2023, 08:55
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It's also worth pointing out that Tempest is being developed in the same time frame as SSN-AUKUS

I can't see how the UK can afford both programmes
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Old 15th Aug 2023, 07:37
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Originally Posted by Buster15
Security.... isn't Saudi Arabia supposed to be our strategic security partner in the middle east?
Security in terms of regional power, yes. Security in terms of being trusted with the kind of secrets we share with the Five Eyes or even NATO? Not likely.
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Old 15th Aug 2023, 16:24
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Originally Posted by Easy Street
Security in terms of regional power, yes. Security in terms of being trusted with the kind of secrets we share with the Five Eyes or even NATO? Not likely.
Is it being developed through NATO, because Tornado was and Typhoon is.
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Old 15th Aug 2023, 17:03
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Is it being developed through NATO, because Tornado was and Typhoon is.
Err, no - they were developed through international consortia, but NATO had nothing to do with them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavi..._Aircraft_GmbH

​​​​​​​https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofi...yphoon#Origins
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Old 15th Aug 2023, 18:44
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Originally Posted by ORAC
Err, no - they were developed through international consortia, but NATO had nothing to do with them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavi..._Aircraft_GmbH

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofi...yphoon#Origins
Sorry but that is just wrong.
MRCA Tornado was developed through funding by each the 3 partner nations through the NATO MRCA Management Agency NAMMA. Officials from each of the MoD and Airforce were seconded to NAMMA in Munich.
NAMMA was then broadened to NETMA to encompass Eurofighter.
NAMMA and NETMA were/are the Management Agencies and prime customer through which the projects are ordered and managed including development, acquisition and spares ordering. The N standing for NATO and the NATO logo is on all of the formal paperwork.
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Old 16th Aug 2023, 15:18
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
It's also worth pointing out that Tempest is being developed in the same time frame as SSN-AUKUS

I can't see how the UK can afford both programmes
It is right to question whether the UK can actually afford the GCAP/Tempest programme and I have actually written to my MP asking this same question. He tells me that he has passed me question onto the Defence Sec and I am still waiting for a response.
But on reflection, it would have been much cheaper for the UK to have partnered with the other European programme, notwithstanding the issues associated with the French demanding leadership.
But it has decided not to do that and gone ahead with Tempest, initially alone and then with Italy and now Japan.

Frankly I will be surprised if Europe can actually deliver both and GCAP/Tempest appears to be making some progress towards a first flight.
What interests me most is what engine will be used for this first flight assuming it actually happens in the projected timescale. Whether a version of EJ200 or an all new engine.
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Old 17th Aug 2023, 08:03
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Originally Posted by Buster15

Frankly I will be surprised if Europe can actually deliver both and GCAP/Tempest appears to be making some progress towards a first flight.
Personally think that Australia will join specifically with MQ-28 as the Lanca part of the program. Maybe some dollars kicked in as well. Also think sweden will upgrade from observer status to an actual participant and theres also a chance that germany will withdraw from FCAS and participate in tempest instead
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Old 17th Aug 2023, 10:48
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Originally Posted by rattman
theres also a chance that germany will withdraw from FCAS and participate in tempest instead
The French are very welcome to keep the Germans as their FCAS partner. Intransigence over workshare and export licensing outweigh the undoubted financial heft they could bring.
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Old 17th Aug 2023, 19:39
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
"I suppose it'd be rude to ask if you've got any facts to back it up?"

Look at the history of the last 50 years - - almost all serious European military hardware has been produced by consortiums of countries and several of those failed because of costs/work share issues
The UK and Italy are middling economic entities - Japan is richer but has rarely participated in multi- national developments. The estimated costs are already way north of 25 Bn - up to 40 Bn - which is way above any indicative long term funding. We can't even afford to buy F-35's at a reasonable rate - how do you think we can afford a completely new aircraft?

look at the comments here
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/temp...jet-programme/

The current 2Bn is really to keep the design teams at BAe etc ticking over
Turkey seems to do quite a lot - I presume it has some help and it cuts its coat according to its cloth.
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Old 18th Aug 2023, 08:09
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Yeah but then you're facing the same issues you'd have with the Saudis - see the F35 issues

as money flows to different parts of the world - or rather as the appetite to spend money on military developments does so - we're all going to find some of our new "friends" a bit uncomfortable.
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Old 18th Aug 2023, 08:47
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
Yeah but then you're facing the same issues you'd have with the Saudis - see the F35 issues

as money flows to different parts of the world - or rather as the appetite to spend money on military developments does so - we're all going to find some of our new "friends" a bit uncomfortable.
If it's anythng like football (soccer), it's only a question of amount of money, before we accept them as welcome business "partners". "Uncomfortable" is for those with olde-worlde ideas of morality and values.
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Old 18th Aug 2023, 09:11
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Finally will be a fighter without a gun!
Maybe?
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Old 18th Aug 2023, 11:15
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They’re looking at LDEW (laser) rather than a gun.

Advantages are no ammunition limit and usable against drones etc. Depending how it’s mounted with the EO system it can also be used off bresight and for self-defence against SAW and AAM.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...ccuracy-boost/

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Old 18th Aug 2023, 15:18
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only needs a small N power plant in the back to power it as well!

or a very long extension lead.....................
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Old 20th Aug 2023, 12:16
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
only needs a small N power plant in the back to power it as well!

or a very long extension lead.....................
Apparently Rolls Royce's engines will have fancy, built-in generators. From what I've read one major problem is that lasers are very inefficient so there's a great deal of heat that has to be removed.
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Old 20th Aug 2023, 14:51
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easily solved


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Old 20th Aug 2023, 15:46
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https://aircosmosinternational.com/a...20two%20spools.

Tempest: Rolls-Royce manufactures electrical starter generator

The future sixth-generation British combat aircraft, Tempest, intended to replace the Eurofighter Typhoon within the RAF, will benefit from additional electrical systems, including an embedded turbine engine starting device developed by Rolls-Royce.

Rolls-Royce could equip the future Tempest, intended to replace the Eurofighter Typhoon within the RAF, with an embedded electrical starter generator system for turbine engines. Purpose of the operation: save space and provide the large amount of electrical power required by future fighters.

Indeed, “existing aircraft engines generate power through a gearbox underneath the engine, which drives a generator. In addition to adding moving parts and complexity, the space required outside the engine for the gearbox and generator makes the airframe larger, which is undesirable in a stealthy platform”, explained Conrad Banks, Chief Engineer for Future Programmes at Rolls-Royce.

In 2014, Rolls-Royce designed an electrical starter generator that was fully embedded in the core of a gas turbine engine, now known as the Embedded Electrical Starter Generator or E2SG demonstrator program.

The launch of the second phase of the project in 2017 saw the inclusion of a second electrical generator connected to the other spool of the engine. It also included an energy storage system in the electrical network and the ability to intelligently manage the supply of power between all these systems.

The two-spool mounted electrical machines allows, by combination of operation as either a motor or a generator, the production of a series of functional effects on the engine, including the transfer of power electrically between the two spools.

Throughout the Tempest program, Rolls-Royce will be continuing to mature the electrical technologies demonstrated by the E2SG program, with a third phase of testing likely to include a novel thermal management system being integrated with the overall system.

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases.aspx

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...fighter-engine

Unverified reports that RR say they expect to be able to generate 1mw of electrical power out of the engine…
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