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UK unveils new next generation fighter jet, the 'Tempest'

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UK unveils new next generation fighter jet, the 'Tempest'

Old 3rd Nov 2023, 21:08
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Originally Posted by henra
Because France seems to be not sticking to the agreement. In le Bourget they openly announced developing Combat Cloud and Unmanned systems (which is the Airbus Part of FCAS) in parallel. So not only taking the manned Fighterjet Part (which was agreed after some hardball play by French Industry and Government) but now also developing the rest of FCAS for themselves. And in case of the tank they are currently on the move out. So only wanting Money from Germany (and Spain) for their development of the Fighterjet part but not buying the Airbus Elements of FCAS nor buying the Tank.
I'm not sure in the longer term they are doing themselves really a favor. I can't see anyone joining any future French Arms Joint Venture in the foreseeable future looking at how they are trying to rip off their partners.
One might also look at previous joint projects fixed and rotary winged with France and see parallels. The French have a history of starting out they want to be collaborative, but then demanding control and the largest share, if not all, of production. If they enter into a "You buy mine and I'll by yours" they then don't follow through on all the "I'll buy yours" part.

Last edited by Commando Cody; 3rd Nov 2023 at 23:24.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 21:16
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
if its been decided why are the Germans thinking of pulling out? (allegedly)
Perhaps they don't want to get the French pregnant.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 22:55
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The main problem I would see is timescale.

The present plan, possible with the present partners, is to have the first engineering airframe airborne for 2035. Add Germany to the mix and negotiating work would add at least a decade to that - which is not available - plus the cost escalation would equal if not exceed any contribution.

Then there is the design. The UK and Japan need a twin engined long range interceptor for long range oceanic type patrols and intercepts, Germany needs a having bought F-35, needs a short range dogfighter (which is what Typhoon was designed for). I can’t see the present partners making that compromise.

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Old 4th Nov 2023, 14:31
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Originally Posted by ORAC
Then there is the design. The UK and Japan need a twin engined long range interceptor for long range oceanic type patrols and intercepts, Germany needs a having bought F-35, needs a short range dogfighter (which is what Typhoon was designed for). I can’t see the present partners making that compromise.
I don't think there would be so much disagreement about sizing and specialisation of the Jet. I don't think a dedicated Dogfighter is what Germany seeks in this but rather an Air Dominance Fighter. And that is not so far from what UK and Japan would need. I don't see them aiming at something Mig31esque either. And Typhoon is also not so much a dedicated Dogfighter. It is optimised for supercruise, supersonic turning and positioning. More focussed at Air Dominance albeit not with huge range.
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Old 4th Nov 2023, 21:40
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Typhoon most certainly was designed with dogfighting in mind and the only machine with a clear advantage over it is F-22. The notorious occasion where the Indians swept the board clean with Su-27 was down to poor exercise planning leaving the Typhoons encumbered by role equipment without the kit to remove it to face their completely clean opponents!

The risk of declaring that GCAP won't need WVR capability is that timid politicians or senior military impose restrictive ROE requiring visual ID. Hopefully the sensor suite will be good enough to argue the opposite case.
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Old 5th Nov 2023, 08:35
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" poor exercise planning leaving the Typhoons encumbered by role equipment without the kit to remove it to face their completely clean opponents!"

And of course that could NEVER happen in real life................. that's the point of exercises - they ARE realistic
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Old 5th Nov 2023, 09:21
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And of course that could NEVER happen in real life................. that's the point of exercises - they ARE realistic
In real life you press the button and clean the wings before committing to the engagement - not something the bean counters will allow in peacetime!

Cant speak for modern times, but it SOP back in the day to put F4s in C or D fit on the middle and outer CAPs and rotate them through the tanker so that they were using just external tank fuel so that, when committing and dropping the tanks they’d be entering the fight with full internal fuel.
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Old 5th Nov 2023, 11:38
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
" poor exercise planning leaving the Typhoons encumbered by role equipment without the kit to remove it to face their completely clean opponents!"

And of course that could NEVER happen in real life................. that's the point of exercises - they ARE realistic
To ORAC's response I would add that dropping fuel tanks (and indeed other stores) would upset the green lobby and require expensive clean up operations, doubly angering the bean counters. It would also require absolutely enormous surface danger areas into which the stores could safely fall given that they would not be aimed in any way.

But more fundamentally if you don't have the insight to air combat to know this then perhaps you should not be commenting!
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Old 6th Nov 2023, 08:13
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Nothing to do with air combat procedures

I believe that what can go wrong will go wrong - and to carry out an exercise with "poor exercise planning leaving the Typhoons encumbered by role equipment without the kit to remove it " may have inadvertently flagged a possible issue that presumably will stay with those responsible and (hopefully) ensure that if things turn hot they will remember the incident. We've managed to lose an F-35 due to simple procedures being forgotten/waived/ignored.

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Old 7th Nov 2023, 22:50
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Sweden confirms that involvement in Tempest is now officially dead.

"We walked away from tri-lateral studies with UK and Italy about a year ago and launched a national study. I will not answer questions why it didn’t work with the UK and FCAS." - official IFC23

For those who think Europe can't support two next-gen fighter programmes, we may be about to get three!

"It is not decided if we will build a system, develop a system with others, or acquire a system. We can say it will be done both nationally and with partners."

@JanesINTEL story on #Sweden's plans for a next-generation combat aircraft, complete with timeline, to come. FMV visualisation (purely illustrative, I'm sure).

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Old 22nd Jan 2024, 15:20
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https://aviationweek.com/defense-spa...th-gen-fighter

‘Empowered’ Government Agency To Develop GCAP Into Sixth-Gen Fighter

The Global Combat Air Program nations—Italy, Japan, and the UK—have agreed to form a government agency that will run development of the future crewed combat aircraft.

Created through a trilateral treaty, the Global Combat Air Program (GCAP) International Government Organization—or GIGO—is the “empowered” organization that will lead the multinational project from development into production, service entry and beyond….

The GIGO agency aims to eliminate shortcomings associated with previous fighter programs.

The NATO Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency, for example, was created to manage those aircraft programs but never was empowered to do so. Instead it was left to an industry-led organization, Eurofighter, to coordinate the program’s partners.

GIGO will function more like the U.S. Joint Program Office for the Lockheed Martin F-35, placing contracts for the different phases of the GCAP program regardless of whether they are unilaterally or bilaterally needed. It will also define and prioritize requirements and resolve issues between partners, and most crucially, it will manage and support exports, albeit within the guidelines of the partner nations.

GIGO is to be based in the UK—its final location is to be determined—and run initially by a Japanese national.

The agency will be joined by an industrial joint-venture counterpart formed by the three airframers—the UK’s BAE Systems, Italy’s Leonardo and Japan’s Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. The joint-venture also will be headquartered in the UK and headed initially by an Italian national.

The creation of that joint venture will follow trilateral agreements signed by companies working in the different program pillars that look at how they enhance their cooperation and share information….

According to the Japanese Defense Ministry, the three ministers also confirmed the work distribution will be “proportionate to each country’s contribution by financial and technical means under the spirit of equal partnership.”

However, the timelines are tight. Government and industry have just one year to prepare to begin work. They will need to develop the platform and prepare it for service entry in 2035, before five years of “rapid spiral development” to ready it for the front line….
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Old 22nd Jan 2024, 16:09
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Please tell me the GIGO acronym is a joke!
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Old 22nd Jan 2024, 16:12
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Originally Posted by ORAC
https://aviationweek.com/defense-spa...th-gen-fighter

‘Empowered’ Government Agency To Develop GCAP Into Sixth-Gen Fighter

The Global Combat Air Program nations—Italy, Japan, and the UK—have agreed to form a government agency that will run development of the future crewed combat aircraft.

Created through a trilateral treaty, the Global Combat Air Program (GCAP) International Government Organization—or GIGO—is the “empowered” organization that will lead the multinational project from development into production, service entry and beyond….
I'm having difficulty believing this article wasn't intended to be released on 1 April.
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Old 22nd Jan 2024, 16:38
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They will need to develop the platform and prepare it for service entry in 2035, before five years of “rapid spiral development” to ready it for the front line….

That doesn’t sound very good for an aircraft!

Mog
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Old 22nd Jan 2024, 18:24
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Originally Posted by Mogwi
They will need to develop the platform and prepare it for service entry in 2035, before five years of “rapid spiral development” to ready it for the front line….

That doesn’t sound very good for an aircraft!

Mog
Is that not the same philosophy the USAF had for the F-15 - introduce it into service quickly but at a very baseline standard, and then rapidly spiral develop it once it's operational? The advantage being that you're not shooting for the impossible 100% solution that would prevent the aircraft ever entering service in the first place.
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Old 22nd Jan 2024, 18:29
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Originally Posted by Ninthace
Please tell me the GIGO acronym is a joke!
Well, I laughed as soon as I read it.
GIGO will function more like the U.S. Joint Program Office for the Lockheed Martin F-35,
At which point I gagged.
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Old 23rd Jan 2024, 09:00
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Originally Posted by melmothtw
Is that not the same philosophy the USAF had for the F-15 - introduce it into service quickly but at a very baseline standard, and then rapidly spiral develop it once it's operational? The advantage being that you're not shooting for the impossible 100% solution that would prevent the aircraft ever entering service in the first place.
looks like thats what they're doing with the B21 (see other thread)

But the US has veered between early production and late production (after a lot of prototypes) ever since 1945 - RAND published a study by Lorell et al in 1998IIRC

You win some, you lose some
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Old 23rd Jan 2024, 09:08
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We may not have 5 years before it’s needed, let alone 15+….
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Old 30th Jan 2024, 15:39
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​​​​​​​The software for the GCAP/Tempest demonstrator has been written and is already being "tested to a very high standard of maturity", while the aircraft itself is in build, according to Herman Claesen, managing director FCAS at BAE Systems.
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Old 3rd Feb 2024, 04:19
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The US will collaborate with Japan on a next-generation drone project, US Secretary of the Air Force Frank Kendall said.

The collaborative combat aircraft (CCA) project will be developed solely by US contractors. However, “there will be other opportunities” to work with Japan, Nikkei Asia quoted Kendall as saying.…

​​​​​​​The project will be built on the recently signed joint research agreement to merge AI and machine learning with advanced unmanned air vehicles.

The aircraft the collaboration will develop is intended to fly alongside Japan’s next-generation fighter aircraft, which Tokyo is developing with the UK and Italy.

“I think there is a lot of technical capability that Japan can bring to the table and that we can all benefit from working together,” Nikkei Asia quoted Kendall as saying.…
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