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UK unveils new next generation fighter jet, the 'Tempest'

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UK unveils new next generation fighter jet, the 'Tempest'

Old 13th Sep 2023, 13:22
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Or could it be because Meteor isn't ready and there aren't any w/clipped fins?
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Old 13th Sep 2023, 13:58
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Originally Posted by ORAC
When it comes to designing a 6th Gen CTOL FJ expertise in designing the lift fan for a STOVL engine isnít exactly top of the essential criteria.

Which is why RR is working away with MHI on a new engine including things such as E2SG, Leonardo on a next generation radar - without US partnership etc.

I think there is a general feeling in both Europe, Japan and elsewhere that we have lost our own expertise and become too dependent on US technology.
because the technology gets ever more expensive and the willingness to buy the eventual (expensive) kit decreases at the same time?

Most non-US countries are very rapidly heading towards Augustine's famous single fighterLaw (#16) - which he calculated would happen in 2054.....................
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Old 14th Sep 2023, 00:39
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Thank you - interesting.
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Old 14th Sep 2023, 09:01
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Originally Posted by ORAC
When it comes to designing a 6th Gen CTOL FJ expertise in designing the lift fan for a STOVL engine isnít exactly top of the essential criteria.

Which is why RR is working away with MHI on a new engine including things such as E2SG, Leonardo on a next generation radar - without US partnership etc.

I think there is a general feeling in both Europe, Japan and elsewhere that we have lost our own expertise and become too dependent on US technology.
That is my understanding as well.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 00:51
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/g...ance-2n7ffv5g5

Germany may abandon €100bn fighter jet project with France

Germany is considering abandoning its flagship €100 billion future combat jet project with France and joining a rival programme with Britain instead, The Times has been told.

As an overture to a potential deal, the German chancellor is also understood to be in talks over lifting Berlin’s veto on a delivery of Eurofighter Typhoon jets to Saudi Arabia, which the UK views as an important strategic priority.

A pact along these lines would be a significant coup for London and reflect a steadily worsening rift between France and Germany, which are at odds over issues from energy and air defence to diplomatic protocol…..

One senior German official said Scholz saw no point in FCAS competing with Tempest and wanted either to merge the two or, failing that, to jettison FCAS and join Tempest. The chancellor is also said to be exasperated by the preferential treatment France has given its own aerospace companies in the initial stages of the FCAS project.

The ill feeling is exacerbated by a wider souring of relations between France and Germany on a number of different policy fronts.

Paris has, for example, snubbed Scholz’s “Sky Shield” initiative to bundle together European countries’ air and missile defence procurement, because it regards Germany’s preference for “off the shelf” systems from countries such as the US and Israel as an affront to its own research and development in this domain.

“When France says European defence policy, it means French industrial interests,” a senior source in Germany’s ruling coalition said. “Scholz feels he has far more in common with the British than with the French on these issues.”….

The next-generation combat aircraft decision is closely linked to a British-German wrangle over a delivery of 48 Eurofighter Typhoon jets to Saudi Arabia, in a package potentially worth more than £5 billion.

The jet aircraft are jointly manufactured by Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy, which means Berlin has the ability to block their export. It has done so up to now on the grounds that a Saudi-led coalition has been blamed for killing thousands of civilians in the Yemeni civil war….

Sources across Scholz’s three-party coalition say they are now increasingly confident that the Eurofighter sale will be unblocked in the near future. This is partly because the chancellor worries that prospective partners will shy away from entering multinational defence projects with Germany in future if it is seen to be single-handedly thwarting exports.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 08:46
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“When France says European defence policy, it means French industrial interests,”

Well there's no change there then..................
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 10:52
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
“When France says European defence policy, it means French industrial interests,”

Well there's no change there then..................
Looking after their interests seems to have worked quite well for the Rafale recently. Should one really be proud of NOT looking after one's industrial interests?
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 12:23
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Originally Posted by t43562
Looking after their interests seems to have worked quite well for the Rafale recently. Should one really be proud of NOT looking after one's industrial interests?
All very well for domestic projects, but if it makes the effective management of a multi-national project so difficult that partners start talking about pulling out it is self-defeating.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 12:38
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Originally Posted by Video Mixdown
All very well for domestic projects, but if it makes the effective management of a multi-national project so difficult that partners start talking about pulling out it is self-defeating.
Unless of course you are more than happy to go it alone. The only multi-national FJ projects France has participated in were the Jaguar and Alpha Jet in the 1960s.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 15:29
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Francis Tusa:

Germany might *think* it can join GCAP, but....

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...638131366.html
​​​​​​​
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 15:49
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It might just indicate that the French are too aggressive, demanding the lead everywhere. They certainly could not fund it going alone.
Who is left, then? South Korea, Singapore, Turkey, Brazil, India, Canada? How about another project?
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 15:51
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Suspect it'll be trade off - the French will lead on the aircraft and the Germans will lead on the next generation tank

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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 13:38
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
Suspect it'll be trade off - the French will lead on the aircraft and the Germans will lead on the next generation tank
I suspect you may be about five years behind the curve Asturia, as both of those work splits have already been decided as you describe.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 13:49
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About that new tank (MGCS) joint venture….

​​​​​​​E-MBT tank emerges as temporary solution for Germany and France after MGCS program collaboration failure
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 17:46
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Originally Posted by Ohrly
Unless of course you are more than happy to go it alone. The only multi-national FJ projects France has participated in were the Jaguar and Alpha Jet in the 1960s.
It has participated in more (some of which were admittedly canned after they left) but took its ball home when it didn't get its way, AFVG, FEFA (Eurofighter), NMBR-3 but the Germans are also slippery partners e.g. ditching MAW for P-8s, slashing their order once Panavia was firmly a GmbH based in Bayern.

It may not make economic. technological, or programme management sense to have Germany onboard in Tempest but politics may overide them.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 17:53
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Their money still might be welcome. Plus bigger expected orders with a certain country threatening invading NATO.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 18:38
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Originally Posted by SLXOwft
It has participated in more (some of which were admittedly canned after they left) but took its ball home when it didn't get its way, AFVG, FEFA (Eurofighter), NMBR-3 but the Germans are also slippery partners e.g. ditching MAW for P-8s, slashing their order once Panavia was firmly a GmbH based in Bayern.It may not make economic. technological, or programme management sense to have Germany onboard in Tempest but politics may overide them.
Did the UK not also slash its Tornado (and Eurofighter for that matter) numbers?


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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 19:31
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Originally Posted by melmothtw
I suspect you may be about five years behind the curve Asturia, as both of those work splits have already been decided as you describe.
if its been decided why are the Germans thinking of pulling out? (allegedly)
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 20:05
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
if its been decided why are the Germans thinking of pulling out? (allegedly)
Because France seems to be not sticking to the agreement. In le Bourget they openly announced developing Combat Cloud and Unmanned systems (which is the Airbus Part of FCAS) in parallel. So not only taking the manned Fighterjet Part (which was agreed after some hardball play by French Industry and Government) but now also developing the rest of FCAS for themselves. And in case of the tank they are currently on the move out. So only wanting Money from Germany (and Spain) for their development of the Fighterjet part but not buying the Airbus Elements of FCAS nor buying the Tank.
I'm not sure in the longer term they are doing themselves really a favor. I can't see anyone joining any future French Arms Joint Venture in the foreseeable future looking at how they are trying to rip off their partners.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 20:16
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Originally Posted by SLXOwft
It may not make economic. technological, or programme management sense to have Germany onboard in Tempest but politics may overide them.
I would rather say it would make economical sense. Potential for an additional >100 aircraft sales. Which is a lot for a Gen5+ Aircraft. Probably an 30+% increase in production numbers. And program partners typically pay more for their aircraft than 'pure buyers'. Allowing for either cheaper sales prices or adding more tech.
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