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RAF Poseidon - Not too long to wait?

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RAF Poseidon - Not too long to wait?

Old 6th Feb 2020, 19:58
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Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen
Does this 'new' Boeing machine have to be MCAS enabled ?

No - the Poseidon is based on the 737NG airframe, MCAS is only an issue for 737MAX aircraft.
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Old 6th Feb 2020, 22:23
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What percentage of parts are common between the NG and other Commercial variants and the P-8?

Civilian Operators might prove to be a handy place to grab some parts in an emergency!
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Old 6th Feb 2020, 23:37
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Originally Posted by SASless
What percentage of parts are common between the NG and other Commercial variants and the P-8?

Civilian Operators might prove to be a handy place to grab some parts in an emergency!
Airlines have a pool system where they share spares, I dont think the RAF takes part in this but even those not taking part they can possibly 'rent' the spares for a fee. One of the problems the RAF would have is that the vast majority of any spares from the commercial sector would either have to come from Glasgow or London. This would take time to transport especially as there are no scheduled flights to Kinloss.

Another issue is that would any commercial company want to loan spares to the RAF if the aircraft are not being maintained under EASA or FAA legislation - sending spares 'outside' of the EASA/FAA system could prove problematic from an ongoing paperwork trail.
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Old 7th Feb 2020, 10:08
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Cashash

Thank you for the additional info.
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Old 7th Feb 2020, 22:12
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Originally Posted by flighthappens
FWIU a lot was paid for in penalty clauses by EADS because of late MRTT delivery.
We had to retire the B707s. We needed to free up the manpower to implement the MRTT. Like with the E-7A, we were the lead customer, both platforms cost us serious money to get to IOC. Going cutting edge has problems and costs, as I think both platforms are at the top of the game. As is this topics P-8

Last edited by golder; 7th Feb 2020 at 22:36.
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Old 7th Feb 2020, 23:25
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This would take time to transport especially as there are no scheduled flights to Kinloss.

Another issue is that would any commercial company want to loan spares to the RAF if the aircraft are not being maintained under EASA or FAA legislation - sending spares 'outside' of the EASA/FAA system could prove problematic from an ongoing paperwork trail.
At the risk of sounding like a smart ass.....there are Air Taxi Operators that could fly the part(s) to Kinloss under an "On Call" Contract.

If the RAF needs the part.....they can buy the part from the Civilian Operator just as they would buy them the usual sources if that was the last option in getting the part and putting the aircraft back into service.

It isn't rocket science.

It does require some commonsense which is a rare commodity within every government operation.
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Old 7th Feb 2020, 23:44
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I dont disagree with any of that SASless but this is the RAF we are talking about.

As an example I was working on Harriers in Germany in the 80's and we had an airframe that was grounded for a reaction nozzle. There were none in stock and the manufacturer didnt have any spares either but finally one was located (I think it was robbed from an aircraft in a museum or gate guardian). So we have a new component how to get it from the UK to Germany bearing in mind that the RAF are one of the largest flying clubs in the world - yes, we put it on a truck and sent it normal freight (its cheaper that way). So the truck gets on the cross channel ferry 'Townsend Thoresen European Gateway' - unfortunately as it left Harwich it hit another ship and sank.

About 6 weeks later we finally got the U/S component back after it had been repaired at the manufacturer.

So it isn't rocket science but as you said - this the government...
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Old 8th Feb 2020, 16:00
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Originally Posted by SASless
At the risk of sounding like a smart ass.....there are Air Taxi Operators that could fly the part(s) to Kinloss under an "On Call" Contract.
At the risk of sounding like a smart ass...I think the RAF have some aeroplanes of their own they could use.
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Old 8th Feb 2020, 19:36
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Originally Posted by cashash
. One of the problems the RAF would have is that the vast majority of any spares from the commercial sector would either have to come from Glasgow or London. This would take time to transport especially as there are no scheduled flights to Kinloss.
Well BA are flying into Inverness as I type this - wouldn't that be close enough?

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Old 8th Feb 2020, 20:55
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Originally Posted by superplum
Well BA are flying into Inverness as I type this - wouldn't that be close enough?
Fair point - I had forgotten that BA had restarted that service.
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Old 8th Feb 2020, 21:33
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Have seen a spare flown back from the Falklands and then put in a taxi from Brize to Lossie.

Anything can be done if you want it. I wouldn't suggest spares for the P8 whilst at Lossie will be a big issue, if they got caught short oversees on an exercise or an Op then am certain they could get a local spare very easily.

Originally Posted by cashash
I dont disagree with any of that SASless but this is the RAF we are talking about.

As an example I was working on Harriers in Germany in the 80's and we had an airframe that was grounded for a reaction nozzle. There were none in stock and the manufacturer didnt have any spares either but finally one was located (I think it was robbed from an aircraft in a museum or gate guardian). So we have a new component how to get it from the UK to Germany bearing in mind that the RAF are one of the largest flying clubs in the world - yes, we put it on a truck and sent it normal freight (its cheaper that way). So the truck gets on the cross channel ferry 'Townsend Thoresen European Gateway' - unfortunately as it left Harwich it hit another ship and sank.

About 6 weeks later we finally got the U/S component back after it had been repaired at the manufacturer.

So it isn't rocket science but as you said - this the government...
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Old 9th Feb 2020, 07:33
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A UK-bound TriStar was once U/S at Dulles, requiring a nosewheel change. This was in the days when airlines still operated the jet and there were plenty of spares available on site.

So the crew chief and captain suggested to Starfleet Upavon that they should obtain the exact same tyre locally and fly back asap.

Oooh No! Far too sensible. So a TriStar tyre was driven to Lyneham and put on board a special C-130 flight, which then lumbered its way across the pond with this AOG spare... I think that someone had at least checked what jacking requirements were needed though.

After several days, the passengers were roused from their hotels and off they went back to the UK.

Cost? Quite a few nights in various hotels, not to mention the Herk flights. Surely there must be a better way these days?
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Old 9th Feb 2020, 10:29
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Beags,

Look at the bright side of it all....it proved MaxR absolutely correct.

We might argue if he is "right"....but he for sure is correct.

A Herky Bird crew got to see some new sights, got a tax paid visit to Washington DC....some valuable flight training and a fair number of hours in the process.

The Tax Payer took it in the shorts due to the costs involved but since when does that. matter except when it comes budget time and money is running out causing Flying Programmes to be cut back.
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Old 9th Feb 2020, 15:15
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Many years ago we, a Nimrod Crew, were on a training det to Sigonella when we suffered an ASI fault on the runway. The call was made to Kinloss for a replacement instrument and associated test equipment. Some bright spark decided that a visiting C130 could take it to Lynham (I told you it was many years ago!) as onward cargo to Palermo where, with the correct paperwork, (those who know how 'much' paperwork was needed) where the Det eng team plus imprest holder picked up said spares. Simples and it worked a treat, except it didn't. The problem was not the ASI but the pitot head, a bee had decided it would make a good nest and when the heaters were applied......

However, in the meanwhile the stores empire went apoplectic with range, that was not the approved route to Sigonella, and so the replacement was sent via the approved route, MT to Stanstead (I believe, could be wrong) and British Midland (again I could be wrong, but you get the idea), to Catania, arriving at 1630 local on a Friday. Customs was shut till Monday morning. As I recall the phone calls went something like this:

Capt to Kinloss : Customs wont give it to us till Monday am, they are closed.
Kinloss: Well call the embassy in Rome, we need the a/c back.
Capt to Embassy: Can you ask the Customs to open up for us.
Embassy: Enjoy your weekend. We cant do anything, this is Italy.
Highly abbreviated of course, but that was the outcome.

We enjoyed the weekend and returned on the Monday, no doubt to lots of arguments way above my pay grade.
The right thing to do, grab a bod from the Duty Crew, give him the spare Pitot head with a note explaining it wasn't a gun, and put him on the British Midland flight and tell him to come back Nimair. Simples, so I doubt it would work.

So fixing A P8 when detached? I am well out of touch now but have the feeling that mixing civil and military practises when it comes to fixing a/c may not be that compatible, or do we now adopt civilian maintenance methods?

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Old 10th Feb 2020, 04:29
  #275 (permalink)  
 
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Surely under 'modern' ILS contracts the contractor not the customer is responsible for spare parts provision, management and availability?
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Old 12th Feb 2020, 12:55
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Originally Posted by BEagle
A UK-bound TriStar was once U/S at Dulles, requiring a nosewheel change. This was in the days when airlines still operated the jet and there were plenty of spares available on site.

So the crew chief and captain suggested to Starfleet Upavon that they should obtain the exact same tyre locally and fly back asap.

Oooh No! Far too sensible. So a TriStar tyre was driven to Lyneham and put on board a special C-130 flight, which then lumbered its way across the pond with this AOG spare... I think that someone had at least checked what jacking requirements were needed though.

After several days, the passengers were roused from their hotels and off they went back to the UK.

Cost? Quite a few nights in various hotels, not to mention the Herk flights. Surely there must be a better way these days?
Bloody rumour control......not quite correct. Said TriStar was returning to Brize following a trail. The nose wheel was found worn to limits by the ground crew and as it was a specific tyre for the K-series of TriStar, an interim Civilian spec tyre was not allowed even though we would not have operated at the design weights for the OE tyre 245 tonnes as opposed to 230 tonnes. Result two days in Denver skiing waiting for a replacement be flown out (no passengers BTW).


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Old 12th Feb 2020, 15:59
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Talking

Many years ago, when I was at Coningsby, one of our "Tooms" was "D-state" for an arrestor hook. One was duly located, already crated up at Leuchars.

So, said crate was dispatched by MT to the nearest railhead and placed on a train to Grantham. When notified by the suppliers that the item was awaiting collection at Grantham, MT duly sent a driver to collect the arrestor hook. So far, so good - the only problem was that the MT driver went to Grantham in a Mini!
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Old 12th Feb 2020, 16:44
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Back on topic - there are 9 aircraft on order - how many do people think are necessary?
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Old 12th Feb 2020, 17:08
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Asturias56 it depends which people you're asking
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Old 12th Feb 2020, 19:33
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
Back on topic - there are 9 aircraft on order - how many do people think are necessary?
Depends on what role you envisage it operating. I can see that in a peace time scenario 9 airframes may be enough but I think it leaves awfully short of airframes in a crisis.
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