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RAF Poseidon - Not too long to wait?

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RAF Poseidon - Not too long to wait?

Old 12th Feb 2020, 23:09
  #281 (permalink)  
 
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Nine aircraft fleet?

One in the shop on scheduled upkeep, one U/S for any number of reasons, one tied up on training duties, , one on SAR Standby....pretty big World for five aircraft to cover!
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 00:21
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
Back on topic - there are 9 aircraft on order - how many do people think are necessary?
AVM Roberts (Retired) provided written evidence to the House Of Commons Select Committee on Defence in 2012 and 2018 on the need for a replacement for the cancelled Nimrod MRA4 / retired Nimrod MR2.

AVM Roberts previous staff and command appointments in the maritime field included:

- Responsibility for all MPA operations and development of NATO AWACS concepts of operation at Headquarters Supreme Allied Commander Atlantic (SACLANT), a post which included responsibility for overseeing all Maritime Surveillance Coordination Centres throughout the NATO area [1975–77]

- Command of RAF Kinloss (Nimrod MR1 and 2) [1977–79]

- Chief of Staff at HQ No 18 [maritime] Group, at the same time acting as Chief of Staff (Air) to CINCHAN/CINCEASTLANT at the Northwood headquarters [1987–79].

2012 submission: https://publications.parliament.uk/p...10/110vw05.htm

Then in 2018, he provided more written evidence that 15/16 x P-8A would be required to provide the same sustained coverage as the 21 x Nimrod MR2 that were retired.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/repo...orth-atlantic/

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...-planes-110231

Spookily, RAF serial numbers reserved long ago for the P-8A were 15 - ZP801 > ZP815.

UK Serials Select ZP to view.

So perhaps 15 was the number early staffing came up with until the small matters of cash available and priorities came into play.

9 was the number the proposed Nimrod MRA4 fleet had been reduced to by various previous salami slicing - 21 (1:1 per MR2) > 18 > 16 > 12 > 9 - before it was binned.

There is a lot of interesting information in the first 2012 paper. For instance, I didn't know that the use of former RAF Nimrod aircrew to train / evaluate on the USN P-8A fleet - as part of what became known as "Seedcorn" - actually originated from a request from the US CNO rather than the other way round. The technical detail regarding comparative radar search capabilities of submarine vs surface vessel vs helicopter vs MPA is fascinating as well.

Last edited by RAFEngO74to09; 13th Feb 2020 at 00:52.
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 02:38
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I guess It depends on how many and what UAVs and other offboard assets you link with the P-8. To make the system. Aussies are running the MQ-4C with the P-8A.

Also new weapons
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...mbs-and-decoys
On Jan. 28, 2020, Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) issued a notice on the Federal government's new central contracting website beta.SAM.gov, asking for contractors to submit information about their capabilities for integrating LRASM and the various other weapons onto the P-8A. LRASM, which is derived from the AGM-158B Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile-Extended Range (JASSM-ER) land-attack cruise missile

Last edited by golder; 13th Feb 2020 at 07:37.
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 07:40
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The 2012 paper is very interetsing thanks

as for any defence numbers it seems you take whatever the Treasury are willing to pay for and multiply by 2 to get the real need.................... so the UK needs 12 T45's, 16 Astutes etc etc .......
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 08:51
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Q. Why has the RAF stood up two squadrons for only nine kites? The RAAF for example keeps its dozen in one Squadron [No 11]
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 10:51
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Training Frame

Maybe itís been thought of, but in terms of tying up a frame for training, would it not make sense (and in that case is probably a stupid idea) to go out and pick up a used 737-700, and use that for crew training for currency trips and base training for the Poseidon and the E7, you could also put it in a 50 seat all VIP fit and use it for shorthaul VIP trips when not engaged in training
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 11:07
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Originally Posted by TBM-Legend
Q. Why has the RAF stood up two squadrons for only nine kites? The RAAF for example keeps its dozen in one Squadron [No 11]
The RAF do not fly kites, but they do have a previous history of this, buy 7 E-3D's, create 2 Squadrons, an OCU, a Standards Flight, and then wonder why their is no money left to keep the aircraft up to date. A fleet now down to an operational strength of 4 bought in 1987, that never received or sought the upgrades other countries paid for and got, and now has to be be replaced. Criminal waste of public funds.
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 12:37
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Originally Posted by TBM-Legend
Q. Why has the RAF stood up two squadrons for only nine kites? The RAAF for example keeps its dozen in one Squadron [No 11]
It's crews rather than aircraft that determine number of squadrons, so presumably TPTB decided that there were too many crews/personnel for a single command.
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 12:44
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Excuse me if I consider that line of thought as being completely silly!

By having two Squadrons....instead of one.....does the then generate an excuse for a Wing and yet another bunch of staff pukes and add yet another layer of bureacracy and cozy billets?

If the Aussies can pull it off with a single Squadron....why cannot the RAF....the most professional Air Force extant?

Divide the Crews into Flights under one Squadron Command and leave the aircraft as a separate resource with the Techies.

That is how the US Army runs its Helicopter Units...with anywhere from 16-24 Aircraft per Company (Squadron).

Pilots are assigned to Platoons, Enlisted Aircrew are assigned to a Flight Platoon, the Aircraft and maintenance staff are a separate "platoon".....all under a single Company Commander who has an admin staff to include Operations staff.

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Old 13th Feb 2020, 12:59
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Q. Why has the RAF stood up two squadrons for only nine kites?
Same is true for the Voyager fleet - 2 squadrons for 9 aircraft.
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 13:03
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16 is a number that seems to have surfaced in official circles -
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 13:27
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Originally Posted by SASless
That is how the US Army runs its Helicopter Units...with anywhere from 16-24 Aircraft per Company (Squadron).
Ah, no, thinking your memory is fading or the ToE changed from Nam era to modern era.
I learned in the mid 1990's that the TOE for the US Army was (for BlackHawks and Apaches at least, not sure about Chinooks, memory says 16 for the big boys) nominally 24 per Battalion (referred to as a Squadron if in a Cav unit).IIRC, OH-58's had a similar lay down. (All of those notes are in the attic somewhere, I think)
My good friend who served in an Apache Bn was a company commander when he was a Captain: he had 8 Apaches in his company/troop.
Back to the P-8 / Poseidon discussion.
(Nine seems about as many air frames as a USN P-3 squadron used to have back when I was serving, but that's when VP were hunting SSBNs ...)
If the RAF are to get 16 P-8's (see Mil-26Man's post) that would seem to fill up two squadrons sufficiently, (6 or 7 per) with a spare or two.
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 13:27
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RAAF will add three more P-8's to the dozen now at 11 Sqn. No 1 Sqn F/A-18F's has 24 jets and the 6 Sqn flying Growlers 11 [was 12]. 36 Sqn operates 8 C-17's and 33 Sqn flies 7 KC-30A's [A330MRTT]
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 13:47
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50
If the RAF are to get 16 P-8's (see Mil-26Man's post) that would seem to fill up two squadrons sufficiently, (6 or 7 per) with a spare or two.
If the RAF are to get 16 P8s then they'll stand up a third squadron!
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 13:57
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Slight thread drift but I see ZP801 is busy circuit bashing (Kinloss) this afternoon as LOS102
 
Old 13th Feb 2020, 15:01
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Originally Posted by Mil-26Man
Same is true for the Voyager fleet - 2 squadrons for 9 aircraft.
I beleive there are currently 10 aircraft in the RAF fleet
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 17:52
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8 on MAR

6 on CAR
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 11:37
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SASless re your comment at #289 - I could of course be accused of being cynical but I believe you have hit the nail on the head. Another Wg Cdr slot plus associated Flight Commanders slots for career progression.
The main thing at the moment is the RAF are back in the maritime game.
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 11:49
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Wing Commander, a Deputy, Staff Officer positions, staff enlisted, then double that manning at each Squadron....and Flight Commanders.....that is several Manning Points.

Now in the old days.....when Aircraft could be built in a timely manner and forces being boosted in numbers rapidly.....those units could be fleshed up with the existing troops being the Cadre of those bigger units due to the initial expansion.

But....when was that the last time that ever happened in the RAF or will ever be for that matter.

We have to remember the UK Military is on the decline in size.

Even with the arrival of the P-8s......that fleet is smaller than in the past and despite better capabilities of the aircraft the loss of numbers limits the overall capability due to sheer lack of numbers of airframes.
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 12:14
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The RAF has been expanding its squadron numbers despite the drop off in aircraft numbers for many years now. All OCUs are now given active squadron number, what were training units are now squadrons, UAVs are now assigned squadron numbers, the list goes on and on. 206 Squadron has two aircraft !
As to the P8 being assigned to two squadrons, there are actually three squadrons if you take account of the ISTAR training squadron who are involved.
Jobs for the boys, got to keep those Wg Cdrs employed somehow and when CAS reports to the PM he given out a highly inflated number while puffing out his chest.
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