Voyager Plummets (Merged)

[fantom]

Oh the irony: an accounts officer being cashiered.

[safetypee]

The discussion appears divided between retributive justice which considers who was responsible and restorative culture which asks what is responsible, (ref * )

Does the choice of view depend on being a pilot / non-pilot, military / non-military; and would an individual view expressed publicly be reversed if subject to such an event?

"The Just Culture in La La Land approach takes the retributive route, but gets it badly wrong." *
Has the CM in this incident taken an inappropriate route or just got it wrong ?

"In the end, we all have one job. Our job is to learn." *
What have we learnt, individually and collectively; what might senior management (mil / civil), or the overall military organisation have learnt?

* https://humanisticsystems.com/2017/0...in-la-la-land/

"A scapegoat, or safer systems? We can’t have both."

[IcePack]

If you want to be a captain then you have to take responsibility whatever that maybe. Basically the buck stops with you. That is what you are paid for however harsh the retribution. (Assuming the findings are correct)
How long were the pilots in jail for, for sliding off the old Athens airport. (Wet rwy)

[Stuff]

I'm fairly sure that Teeter's comments will be solely responsible for at least a 300% increase in searches for the word "pulchritudinous."

I like it, I hope it gains it's own place in common parlance even if, alongside "punctilious" it only appears in a particular phrase which we all know well.

[alfred_the_great]

Originally Posted by safetypee

The discussion appears divided between retributive justice which considers who was responsible and restorative culture which asks what is responsible, (ref * )

Does the choice of view depend on being a pilot / non-pilot, military / non-military; and would an individual view expressed publicly be reversed if subject to such an event?

"The Just Culture in La La Land approach takes the retributive route, but gets it badly wrong." *
Has the CM in this incident taken an inappropriate route or just got it wrong ?

"In the end, we all have one job. Our job is to learn." *
What have we learnt, individually and collectively; what might senior management (mil / civil), or the overall military organisation have learnt?

* https://humanisticsystems.com/2017/0...in-la-la-land/

"A scapegoat, or safer systems? We can’t have both."

What chutney, sounds like you want a no-blame system, not a Just Culture.

Or is it just no-blame for the pilots?

[woptb]

All the 'stuff' about design & systemic issues is valid, but shouldn't people be punished for not reporting or cooperating &/or lying ?
Within the context of a just culture we want people to put their hands up when they get it wrong.
Military reckless definition, a conscious & substantial & unjustifiable disregard for risk. Surely if, within the context of a just culture, people do not 'own up' or cooperate with an investigation they greatly increase the risk of recurrence?
This of course assumes you have a just culture and believe reporting is 'safe'!!

[tucumseh]

All the 'stuff' about design & systemic issues is valid, but shouldn't people be punished for not reporting or cooperating &/or lying ?

Yes. See comments above about ACAS, CE, DGAS2 and CDP. I assume you’re not talking specifically about the pilot, as he was found not guilty of this. One problem is that, on MoD’s own admission, the regulatory authority (MAA) does not have anyone who has ever reported such offences, yet claims each member has vast experience and exposure to the failings.

Within the context of a just culture we want people to put their hands up when they get it wrong.
Military reckless definition, a conscious & substantial & unjustifiable disregard for risk. Surely if, within the context of a just culture, people do not 'own up' or cooperate with an investigation they greatly increase the risk of recurrence?

Correct. But there are many examples, too, of prior notification of failings and the “system” flatly refusing to act to prevent occurrence. Classic examples; Nimrod XV230, Tornado ZG710, Hercules XV179……. In the case of Tornado, the formal notification to 2 Star was later that year cited in an annual report as good reason to mark the person down and withhold promotion recommendations and performance pay. Staff were formally notified of these decisions by their Trades Union, the clear message being; if you report wrongdoing, you’re in the crap.

This of course assumes you have a just culture and believe reporting is 'safe'!!

Reporting is demonstrably not safe. MoD manages by bullying, and staff have been threatened with dismissal for reporting immediate risks to life. We await word of what action is to be taken against the SI officer who (allegedly) threatened the two pilots. It will be interesting to see if he cites precedent.

[woptb]

I agree with almost all you say, but whilst the MAA is imperfect it was stood up after & in the case of XV230,because of the losses.
DASORS (failings acknowledged) is widely used & has done some good. There are also DCORS & the whistleblowing avenue available.

[tucumseh]

Thanks woptb

I retired before DCORS came in, but as I said, reporting air safety concerns was usually met with disciplinary action. As recently as November 2015, Minister for AF and Cabinet Secy ruled that this action should stand. Whistleblowing (a term I don't like as it is given negative connotations, yet could be said to be a legal obligation if you have formal delegation) likewise attracts immediate retribution. However, at least MoD has admitted that one is entitled to take such concerns to the media - it stated this in the 2015 briefing to Minister (supplied under FoI) when advising him that making false record is NOT an offence, and nor is instructing one to do so. BUT, refusing to obey that instruction is an offence. I know, I know, the pilot was charged with this! But studying the respective cases, the difference is the rank of those involved. MoD is happy to persecute a Flt Lt, but not an Air ranking officer. It is that protection, by virtue of rank, that I cannot abide. It has killed too many.

[Al R]

<<Events enabling forfeiture. If a member, deferred member or pensioner member is convicted of treason or offence(s) under the Official Secrets Act and is sentenced to at least 10 years imprisonment, or is convicted of an offence that the Secretary of State considers to have been gravely injurious to the defence, security or other interests of the State, or has incurred a monetary obligation to the Crown which arises out of criminal, negligent or fraudulent act and is in connection to service in the Armed Forces, benefits may be forfeit.>>

Scheme rules apply and although the Forfeiture Act of 1870 is largely consigned to history and repealed, section 2 still applies. The police service is particularly hot on pension forfeiture and it was speculated that David Kelly was threatened with disciplinary action that may have resulted in forfeiture.

I have an ongoing FoA request with the MoD about this very thing.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/afps

[airpolice]

My understanding of the rules, which may be a couple of years out of date is that a Police officer convicted of an offence which brings the service into disrepute MAY be subject to a loss of Pension. This is a very race action, and even if taken, results no tin no money, but simply a return of the contributions paid into the scheme over the years of membership.

There is no mechanism to leave them with nothing.

[Al R]

Jasbir Dhanda was charged with six counts of misconduct in a public office and five breaches of the Data Protection Act, and in 2015, he forfeited 40%. For a multitude of reasons, I don't think forfeiture could ever apply in this instance.

Policeman?s pension cut over sex with vulnerable prostitute | The Times

[Hangarshuffle]

The pilot was 49 years old and with the rank of Flt Lt. This is a very junior rank, against his age. And somehow, its all related.

[kweelo]

Hangarshuffle - not fair and I disagree. Do not not confuse rank with experience and ability. On the fleet I fly with, some of the most able / best pilots (in my opinion) are Flt Lts. You have career pilots who are Flt Lts and are very talented.

[tubby linton]

I would leave him with his pension to reflect his previous service. His CV will ask a number of questions plus I doubt any chief pilot in the uk will not know his name in an adverse way. Obtaining an airline job in the UK would probably be doubtful but the sandpit is always an option.

[Pontius Navigator]

HS, at that age, in this age, it is pay grade that matters not rank.

[Willard Whyte]

The pilot was 49 years old and with the rank of Flt Lt. This is a very junior rank, against his age. And somehow, its all related.

And I thought some other folk 'round here spouted utter ballocks.

That vomit takes the arse biscuit.

[Brian W May]

Hangarshuffle I'm afraid your secret is out.

We now all know what an ill-informed, ignorant little poster you are . . . you just proved it.

Why don't you ask questions instead of making stupid statements.

[Top Bunk Tester]

HS

Can you say PA Spine?

[AutoBit]

HS

Allow me to translate. It's called FTC(A) in the RN......but of course you knew that already, right?