Royal Air Force Club
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The reason the club in question is suffering is because the dinosaur mentality on display here is no longer the behaviour of the officer of today.
Out of uniform modern day young officers are able to socialise without looking down their noses at the hired help which is a real breath of fresh air compared with the classicly old school, but almost extinct T-Rex and his trench coat attitude that pervades this site with their endless WIWO blather.
Bloody civvy bedwetters the lot of them and they should simply let it go
Out of uniform modern day young officers are able to socialise without looking down their noses at the hired help which is a real breath of fresh air compared with the classicly old school, but almost extinct T-Rex and his trench coat attitude that pervades this site with their endless WIWO blather.
Bloody civvy bedwetters the lot of them and they should simply let it go
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This whole "class" thing has always bothered me.
Useless shiny-arse polyester uniforms that happen to have had a commission routinely trot out the "should have tried harder at school" nonsense.
Not everybody has the interest or ability to command. However, there are some awfully thick people in positions of command in the Services, and some awfully bright people in the "lower ranks". Granted, neither are universal.
However, to be looked down on by those that have held the Queen's Commission doesn't do that office any favours at all. Fortunately, this thread is a good indicator that times are changing.
Useless shiny-arse polyester uniforms that happen to have had a commission routinely trot out the "should have tried harder at school" nonsense.
Not everybody has the interest or ability to command. However, there are some awfully thick people in positions of command in the Services, and some awfully bright people in the "lower ranks". Granted, neither are universal.
However, to be looked down on by those that have held the Queen's Commission doesn't do that office any favours at all. Fortunately, this thread is a good indicator that times are changing.
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Useless shiny-arse polyester uniforms that happen to have had a commission routinely trot out the "should have tried harder at school" nonsense.
One will never know... But their club will wither and die as shall those who carry such silly airs and graces...
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as a disinterested outsider, can I suggest that maybe the way forward is for it to amalgamate with the RAC club? It would be cheap to do:only one letter to change on the stationery.
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Tankertrashnav:
"I'm emailing the club secretary with a link to this thread, with a request that he also points it out to the member of the board of trustees who authored the report in the newsletter".
Do let us know if you get a response. I think the emotions - pro and co - regarding the Club's policies etc have got a good airing on this forum and perhaps will be a "true" wake up call for the administration - if they are prepared to read it.
"I'm emailing the club secretary with a link to this thread, with a request that he also points it out to the member of the board of trustees who authored the report in the newsletter".
Do let us know if you get a response. I think the emotions - pro and co - regarding the Club's policies etc have got a good airing on this forum and perhaps will be a "true" wake up call for the administration - if they are prepared to read it.
It's 1976 and being an uncultured colonial Air Force officer I arrived on the doorstep with a fellow officer after our long flight[s] from Malaysia [via Bangkok/Karachi/Bahrain] in our travelling clothes at 9am on a sunny Wednesday after being driven around London for an hour from Victoria Station [Q. cab driver; "have you been to London before?" A: "No!"].
Upon arriving at the club entrance we were both frog marched into the Secretary's office and dressed down for not dressing up! Well I thought then that one must bathe in a three piece suit not your birthday suite as is the fashion in the Antipodes.
Great stay....
Upon arriving at the club entrance we were both frog marched into the Secretary's office and dressed down for not dressing up! Well I thought then that one must bathe in a three piece suit not your birthday suite as is the fashion in the Antipodes.
Great stay....
I haven't visited for many years, it's a long ride from New Zealand, but remember on one occasion when working for my last, foreign, airline, flying over from Frankfurt for a day, and spending the night at the club.
I attended breakfast next morning wearing a jacket but with polo neck sweater, and was admonished by the Maitre 'd who informed me that 'gentlemen' were required to wear jacket and tie in The Dining Room - I had forgotten, and must admit that I do find that a bit OTT at breakfast - but complied, the only tie I possessed at the time being my uniform black one, and as I would have to change to fly back to FFT later that morning anyway, changed into full uniform to return to the dining room and complete my breakfast. Entering the room with four gold bars adorning my sleeve, and carrying the scrambled egg peaked cap under my arm caused the head waiter to almost wet himself - I enjoyed that, and had a splendid breakfast.
On another occasion I entertained youngest son, then attending London University, in the Running Horse, and whilst waiting for him downstairs with my other son got a telephone call to attend the front desk, where I was reminded that visitors had to adhere to the dress code.
I apologised to my son for not reminding him, and he had turned up in a scruffy sweater. I suggested that he stay there a couple of minutes, that I would collect his brother from downstairs and we would drink elsewhere, but the porter offered to find him a jacket and tie, and he eventually turned up in the bar wearing the tie around his polo neck sweater, and a black jacket over it - he looked a right clown, but met the rules - "good on 'im" - as the New Zealanders would say !
I attended breakfast next morning wearing a jacket but with polo neck sweater, and was admonished by the Maitre 'd who informed me that 'gentlemen' were required to wear jacket and tie in The Dining Room - I had forgotten, and must admit that I do find that a bit OTT at breakfast - but complied, the only tie I possessed at the time being my uniform black one, and as I would have to change to fly back to FFT later that morning anyway, changed into full uniform to return to the dining room and complete my breakfast. Entering the room with four gold bars adorning my sleeve, and carrying the scrambled egg peaked cap under my arm caused the head waiter to almost wet himself - I enjoyed that, and had a splendid breakfast.
On another occasion I entertained youngest son, then attending London University, in the Running Horse, and whilst waiting for him downstairs with my other son got a telephone call to attend the front desk, where I was reminded that visitors had to adhere to the dress code.
I apologised to my son for not reminding him, and he had turned up in a scruffy sweater. I suggested that he stay there a couple of minutes, that I would collect his brother from downstairs and we would drink elsewhere, but the porter offered to find him a jacket and tie, and he eventually turned up in the bar wearing the tie around his polo neck sweater, and a black jacket over it - he looked a right clown, but met the rules - "good on 'im" - as the New Zealanders would say !
....to be looked down on by those that have held the Queen's Commission....
Dress rules have relaxed a lot and the staff are generally a bit more pragmatic. In the cloakroom on the ground floor there is a wardrobe full of coats and ties to suit most styles – needed only for the Dining Room and Cowdray lounge now.
I have been a member for the length of my soon-to-finish RAF career and have seen the club improve constantly over the years. I took my foreign staff college syndicate and their wives for High Tea in the Cowdray Longue last year and they loved it - three-tiered cake stands, silver tea pots, the paintings of Messerschmitts being shot down - the works. And quite affordable, too.
During my 2 previous tours in Town I visited a number of other clubs in both professional capacity and by private invitation. Some, like the RAC are grander, others like the National Liberal Club are quirky (closed on weekends and smells of wee), In and Out has a nice courtyard and pool but haunted by military 'walts', and the Reform is stuffy and very expensive to maintain membership. The bedrooms of the RAF Club are generally a lot better than most other clubs too, I understand.
However one gripe I do have is the increasing cost of the rooms. I get back to London on duty fairly regularly and try to stay at the club - however two things militate this. Firstly rooms can be hard to come by, and secondly, when I try to book via DHRS the cost of the room only (they don't do a B&B rate) exceeds the Night Subsistence rate and thus I either have to get my 'budget manager' (in another country) to approve the uplift - no chance - or fork the difference out of my pocket. With the drastic cut in our pay and allowances, I can’t afford that so I end up staying at a Travelodge or similar, rather that supporting my Club.
There used to be a 'Serving in London on Duty' rate but that was dropped a few years back. I encourage the management to revise the rules and at least get some Serving members staying at the public expense, rather than lining the pockets of some multinational firm.
Secondly, there is a provision in the rules for Members of other London clubs to use our facilities and to book rooms when their clubs are booked out or closed. The result is that there have been some extremely odd characters with no Club connections (=RAF connections) using the Business suite and library, as well as booking rooms - to the detriment of RAF Club members attempting to stay there. The RAF Club has more bedrooms than most London Clubs (92), so it tends to be the default setting when the Clubs in Pall Mall (with an average of 40 rooms) are booked out. Perhaps this might be improving the cash-flow but I fear that this reciprocal arrangement is not reciprocated. On one occasion when I tried to book at the club (and it was full) I asked which other clubs in London I could use. The staff member didn’t seem to know. I rang several clubs that I was familiar with and they weren’t aware of the reciprocal ‘deal’ and I ended up staying at an Ibis Hotel near Aldgate. Yeurrch!
I have used both the Union Jack and the Victory Services Club. Both are excellent and affordable for accommodation – especially when using the UJC car park. The VSC is undergoing an extensive refurbishment programme at the moment and offers a very good PODL deal. We also held several offsites at both locations - UJC was considerably cheaper and the faciliteis were better. However I would not use them to entertain guests as they lack the lack the granduer of the RAF Club and the obvious RAF connections, although the bar at the VSC is rather chic (pity about the emblazered ex SNCO clientele who are glued to the bar!). Ooh, look at you!
Finally, Fred is a living national treasure. He always remembers me and asks after the family (we’ve stayed in the excellent family rooms when we’ve staged through London in the past). He’d be at least a Colonel in the KGB/SVR based on his knowledge of the RAF personnel ORBAT…
I have been a member for the length of my soon-to-finish RAF career and have seen the club improve constantly over the years. I took my foreign staff college syndicate and their wives for High Tea in the Cowdray Longue last year and they loved it - three-tiered cake stands, silver tea pots, the paintings of Messerschmitts being shot down - the works. And quite affordable, too.
During my 2 previous tours in Town I visited a number of other clubs in both professional capacity and by private invitation. Some, like the RAC are grander, others like the National Liberal Club are quirky (closed on weekends and smells of wee), In and Out has a nice courtyard and pool but haunted by military 'walts', and the Reform is stuffy and very expensive to maintain membership. The bedrooms of the RAF Club are generally a lot better than most other clubs too, I understand.
However one gripe I do have is the increasing cost of the rooms. I get back to London on duty fairly regularly and try to stay at the club - however two things militate this. Firstly rooms can be hard to come by, and secondly, when I try to book via DHRS the cost of the room only (they don't do a B&B rate) exceeds the Night Subsistence rate and thus I either have to get my 'budget manager' (in another country) to approve the uplift - no chance - or fork the difference out of my pocket. With the drastic cut in our pay and allowances, I can’t afford that so I end up staying at a Travelodge or similar, rather that supporting my Club.
There used to be a 'Serving in London on Duty' rate but that was dropped a few years back. I encourage the management to revise the rules and at least get some Serving members staying at the public expense, rather than lining the pockets of some multinational firm.
Secondly, there is a provision in the rules for Members of other London clubs to use our facilities and to book rooms when their clubs are booked out or closed. The result is that there have been some extremely odd characters with no Club connections (=RAF connections) using the Business suite and library, as well as booking rooms - to the detriment of RAF Club members attempting to stay there. The RAF Club has more bedrooms than most London Clubs (92), so it tends to be the default setting when the Clubs in Pall Mall (with an average of 40 rooms) are booked out. Perhaps this might be improving the cash-flow but I fear that this reciprocal arrangement is not reciprocated. On one occasion when I tried to book at the club (and it was full) I asked which other clubs in London I could use. The staff member didn’t seem to know. I rang several clubs that I was familiar with and they weren’t aware of the reciprocal ‘deal’ and I ended up staying at an Ibis Hotel near Aldgate. Yeurrch!
I have used both the Union Jack and the Victory Services Club. Both are excellent and affordable for accommodation – especially when using the UJC car park. The VSC is undergoing an extensive refurbishment programme at the moment and offers a very good PODL deal. We also held several offsites at both locations - UJC was considerably cheaper and the faciliteis were better. However I would not use them to entertain guests as they lack the lack the granduer of the RAF Club and the obvious RAF connections, although the bar at the VSC is rather chic (pity about the emblazered ex SNCO clientele who are glued to the bar!). Ooh, look at you!
Finally, Fred is a living national treasure. He always remembers me and asks after the family (we’ve stayed in the excellent family rooms when we’ve staged through London in the past). He’d be at least a Colonel in the KGB/SVR based on his knowledge of the RAF personnel ORBAT…
Hi Beags!
Sounds like The Club is in a similar situation to the 1960's. A younger generation who were not interested and an older generation resistant to change. Back then the dress requirements were altered and a disco introduced. Add a compulsary membership at all officer training establishments and suddenly The Club was full!
This time, with a shrinking Air Force, they should look to the retirees. Many of whom have resigned due to the cost and difficulty of getting into central London. Maybe a country membership at reduced cost would entice some to return. Afterall, it seems odd that people who use the club every day pay the same subs as those who only use it once a year! I would certainly be interested in rejoining if the subs were say £50 a year.
Another area they should maybe look at is squadron reunions. Why do we attend them in pubs in central London but not in The Club? Atmosphere? Cost? Dress regulations? Surely they could attract some trade if they offered deals to hold them in the function rooms?
Sounds like The Club is in a similar situation to the 1960's. A younger generation who were not interested and an older generation resistant to change. Back then the dress requirements were altered and a disco introduced. Add a compulsary membership at all officer training establishments and suddenly The Club was full!
This time, with a shrinking Air Force, they should look to the retirees. Many of whom have resigned due to the cost and difficulty of getting into central London. Maybe a country membership at reduced cost would entice some to return. Afterall, it seems odd that people who use the club every day pay the same subs as those who only use it once a year! I would certainly be interested in rejoining if the subs were say £50 a year.
Another area they should maybe look at is squadron reunions. Why do we attend them in pubs in central London but not in The Club? Atmosphere? Cost? Dress regulations? Surely they could attract some trade if they offered deals to hold them in the function rooms?
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Gents, a fascinating thread to which I humbly offer a couple of points: (i) I attend a Royal Corps of Signals (i.e. Air Formation Signals, Army Emergency Reserve and Princess Louise's Kensington) reunion dinner at the end of February each year. The RAF Club are kind enough to allow the Army to descend en masse and both the food and ambience are excellent (it is also very good value for money), and (ii) Beagle, I strongly suspect that your remark re. holding the Queen's Commission was fully intended to be humorous but clearly others did not take it that way and to my mind at least, it was a bit chippy.
Newt - I'm not sure that your assumption that 'younger' members are not interested in the club is correct . I portune that it is quite the opposite - when I was in London until 18 months ago, the club alsways seemed to have a lot of JOs using the facilities (generally only the rooms, to be fair) - as I did 20-odd years ago.
Additionally, there are many reunions, farewells and get-togethers held at the club (and very good they are too). But they are not cheap to attend and some orgnaisiers might feel it is inappropriate that ex-Non-commissioned personnel attend, or indeed might think that they will feel uncomfortable (on both counts I would disagree with this premise).
In due course I will be a retired member and although this cohort may help with modest cash-flow through subscriptions, but are less likely to be using rooms on a regular basis and spending up large in the Running Horse. I agree that the opening hours of that bar need to be expanded, inter alia
Additionally, there are many reunions, farewells and get-togethers held at the club (and very good they are too). But they are not cheap to attend and some orgnaisiers might feel it is inappropriate that ex-Non-commissioned personnel attend, or indeed might think that they will feel uncomfortable (on both counts I would disagree with this premise).
In due course I will be a retired member and although this cohort may help with modest cash-flow through subscriptions, but are less likely to be using rooms on a regular basis and spending up large in the Running Horse. I agree that the opening hours of that bar need to be expanded, inter alia
Gentleman Aviator
Have just checked the online booking system and (as a member) I could get a basic single room (no en suite) for tonight for £61.50!
Seems pretty good price for Piccadilly and the "ambience" ...... surprised an airline pilot couldn't afford it!!
Seems pretty good price for Piccadilly and the "ambience" ...... surprised an airline pilot couldn't afford it!!
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How very sad
I've stayed out of this for long enough; I am dismayed to see the trend developing in this thread, which reveals a positively Jurassic mindset amongst some Ppruners. As a proud holder of the Queen's Non-Commission for nearly 20 of my 24 years in a light blue uniform, I find some of the attitudes & comments herein both amazing, and even insulting to the WO/SNCO cadre. I offer you gentlemen this, from someone who a) values & is proud of his time in the RAF, and b) made a very successful transition to civilian life 16yrs ago:
1) This is the 21st century, not the 1930's.
2) The British Raj declined some time ago.
3) Those of you who are retired: cherish your memories, as I do, but understand item 1) above, and bear in mind that the social stratification of a previous era may not reflect the social mores of the modern world (for good or ill).
4) Those of you who are still serving: don't believe your own publicity too much. It will hinder your inevitable transition to civilian life.
I sincerely hope that our American cousins on Pprune are by-passing this thread; the ridicule & scorn which would wing its' way eastwards on the Jet Stream would be simply too much to bear.
To the gentleman who was piqued by blazered ex-SNCO's at the VSC Bar; if these chaps are so proud of their Service that they dress so for gatherings or reunions, who are you to deny them this? You are breathtakingly arrogant, Sir.
I could continue on this topic for some time, but I must polish my Lordship's riding boots, whilst studying a book on Table Etiquette.
HB
1) This is the 21st century, not the 1930's.
2) The British Raj declined some time ago.
3) Those of you who are retired: cherish your memories, as I do, but understand item 1) above, and bear in mind that the social stratification of a previous era may not reflect the social mores of the modern world (for good or ill).
4) Those of you who are still serving: don't believe your own publicity too much. It will hinder your inevitable transition to civilian life.
I sincerely hope that our American cousins on Pprune are by-passing this thread; the ridicule & scorn which would wing its' way eastwards on the Jet Stream would be simply too much to bear.
To the gentleman who was piqued by blazered ex-SNCO's at the VSC Bar; if these chaps are so proud of their Service that they dress so for gatherings or reunions, who are you to deny them this? You are breathtakingly arrogant, Sir.
I could continue on this topic for some time, but I must polish my Lordship's riding boots, whilst studying a book on Table Etiquette.
HB
Last edited by Halton Brat; 25th May 2011 at 11:41.
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I am not sure the Club in is trouble... I have tried to book a weekend room on quite a few occasions in the last few years and not managed to get a room since 2004. I have been tempted to stop my membership on the basis the club seems oversubscribed and doesn't need my support, but for the fact the reciprocal arrangement with the Cavalry & Guards Club next door works quite well, and they serve breakfast in bed!
HB
I think that you are being a little precious!
Depending on who I am entertaining I might go to a bar, VSC, Wagga Mamas or the RAF Club. I don't begrudge chaps wearing blazers, Regtl/Sqn badges, berets and dodgy moustaches, but that doesn't mean that I am instantly drawn to spending drinking time with them.
As a corollary, not that long ago I went to an RBL Club after a Remembrance Service and was harangued by said chaps about falling standards across the Services and the RAF in particular. These guys had left the services many years ago and had virtually no operational experience between them, and absolutely no understanding of the modern services, or indeed, what being on ops means these days. They meant well, but were of a different generation. Similarly some of the old fogeys at the RAF Club I have littel in common with. Earlier this year I met one chap, a retired Sqn Ldr, who was critical about the number of medals that we are 'issued' these days, implying that we didn't earn them. Jealousy, more likely!
The immutable fact, at present, is that the RAF Club membership is largely limited to those who hold/held a Commission. Until that is changed (and that would require a major change in the constitution and founding documents - affecting any bequests and legacies, amongst other issues - and approval of the Charity Commissioners) club membership will remain self-selecting. If I want to drink with the chaps (and ex chaps) I can go to VSC or UJC - or the local RAFA club (well I might, if I was in the UK!). Should I wish to.
I think that you are being a little precious!
Depending on who I am entertaining I might go to a bar, VSC, Wagga Mamas or the RAF Club. I don't begrudge chaps wearing blazers, Regtl/Sqn badges, berets and dodgy moustaches, but that doesn't mean that I am instantly drawn to spending drinking time with them.
As a corollary, not that long ago I went to an RBL Club after a Remembrance Service and was harangued by said chaps about falling standards across the Services and the RAF in particular. These guys had left the services many years ago and had virtually no operational experience between them, and absolutely no understanding of the modern services, or indeed, what being on ops means these days. They meant well, but were of a different generation. Similarly some of the old fogeys at the RAF Club I have littel in common with. Earlier this year I met one chap, a retired Sqn Ldr, who was critical about the number of medals that we are 'issued' these days, implying that we didn't earn them. Jealousy, more likely!
The immutable fact, at present, is that the RAF Club membership is largely limited to those who hold/held a Commission. Until that is changed (and that would require a major change in the constitution and founding documents - affecting any bequests and legacies, amongst other issues - and approval of the Charity Commissioners) club membership will remain self-selecting. If I want to drink with the chaps (and ex chaps) I can go to VSC or UJC - or the local RAFA club (well I might, if I was in the UK!). Should I wish to.
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I could get a basic single room (no en suite) for tonight for £61.50!
Seems pretty good price for Piccadilly and the "ambience" ...... surprised an airline pilot couldn't afford it!!
Seems pretty good price for Piccadilly and the "ambience" ...... surprised an airline pilot couldn't afford it!!
I averaged about three nights there per month throughout my time as a Flying Officer. The prices were very reasonable and cheaper than any commercial alternates. At some point between then and now the there seems to have been a real price hike, far in excess of inflation. Maybe I need to stay in London at 'the wrong times' but the last few times I have used the Club it has cost me about double your figure, and about double the cost of a decent hotel room in central London on priceline.com. Therefore the RAF Club is no longer the first choice for every visit to London (as it once was) and instead it is a luxury for occassional use - no longer would I spend three nights per month there. Furthermore, like others have pointed out, the last few times I have wanted to use the RAF Club, there has been no availability and I have instead used the Chavalry & Guards next door or the Caledonian Club.
So if the place is fully booked and prices are high, how could they have a problem? The Charity Commission figure seem to show that their finances are healthy at the moment - as you would expect. I think there is a significant element of truth that the Club is being monopolized by the retired senior officers to the detriment of the younger members, and potential members. This is obviously good for the bottom line short term, but I think the management are beginning to realize that over-reliance on that sector, as the Rowley-Birkins gradually drop off the perch, will lead to a membership crisis in the future.
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On the matter of cost and income it must be noted in our Chairman's Report that serving members in1992 were 15,000, in 2010 we were down to 3,227. And this figure is obviously going to reduce. It is a very difficult situation.
Living abroad for the last 12 years I have probably averaged about one night a year at the club. For me it is an oasis in London. I can relax amongst 'my own'. Having spent 25 years living in five star hotels around the world you can't beat the traditional ambiance of our club.
As for subscription fees; for married couples it is a very good deal. My wife (also a retired officer) gets, I think, almost the same rights as myself without having her own subscription.
Living abroad for the last 12 years I have probably averaged about one night a year at the club. For me it is an oasis in London. I can relax amongst 'my own'. Having spent 25 years living in five star hotels around the world you can't beat the traditional ambiance of our club.
As for subscription fees; for married couples it is a very good deal. My wife (also a retired officer) gets, I think, almost the same rights as myself without having her own subscription.
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I have the utmost admiration for those of any generation who are or have been on active service, and continue to show my respect in a variety of ways. I have less time for those few who choose to denigrate the many who have had little or no 'operational' experience. Following WW2, they all wore their uniforms voluntarily, and that most were never exposed to enemy action does not detract from their readiness to do so in the professional manner of their day, often in difficult circumstances. Their relative lack of medals is thankfully a sign of a slightly more peaceful yesteryear, which can be regarded as partly due to their contribution.
That said, I side with those who favour changes that would reflect more 'acceptable' modern standards (eg dress code and opening hours), catering for both young and old. Maybe there should also be much more youthful representation and influence at Club Committee level?
And as elsewhere, like it or not, it's an Officers Club. That's not a Rowley-Birkins elitist view, it's fact, just as golf clubs are predominantly for golfers etc etc. If there are so many enviable aspirations for membership, the formula must be good -subject to some up-to-date tweaking. Also, the decision to open the doors to 'civilians' who have contributed notably to the RAF was financially well-founded, and the waiting list remains lengthy. But I suspect that is open to some criticsm in terms of room availability and unwelcome behaviour (and I don't mean wardrobe pee-ing or farting).
That said, I side with those who favour changes that would reflect more 'acceptable' modern standards (eg dress code and opening hours), catering for both young and old. Maybe there should also be much more youthful representation and influence at Club Committee level?
And as elsewhere, like it or not, it's an Officers Club. That's not a Rowley-Birkins elitist view, it's fact, just as golf clubs are predominantly for golfers etc etc. If there are so many enviable aspirations for membership, the formula must be good -subject to some up-to-date tweaking. Also, the decision to open the doors to 'civilians' who have contributed notably to the RAF was financially well-founded, and the waiting list remains lengthy. But I suspect that is open to some criticsm in terms of room availability and unwelcome behaviour (and I don't mean wardrobe pee-ing or farting).
Last edited by jindabyne; 25th May 2011 at 12:39.