US Recon Marine
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US Recon Marine
This is a great snippet from the public domain (i.e. unclass) 
Message from a Recon Marine in Afghanistan
Published: November 11, 2001
Author: Saucy Jack
The following was read on the Sully and Scooter (Radio KOGO in San Diego) Show Saturday, November 17th.
Just outside of Ab Gach, in the northwest panhandle of Afghanistan between Tajikstan and Pakistan. November 11, 2001.
Bizarre,
It's (expletive) freezing here. I'm sitting on hard, cold dirt between rocks and shrubs at the base of the Hindu Kush mountains along the Dar 'yoi Pomir River watching a hole that leads to a tunnel that leads to a cave. Stake out, my friend, and no pizza delivery for thousands of miles. I also glance at the area around my ass every ten to fifteen seconds to avoid another scorpion sting. I've actually given up battling the chiggers and sand fleas, but them (expletive) scorpions give a jolt like a cattle prod. Hurts like a bastard. The antidote tastes like transmission fluid but God bless the Marine Corps for the five vials of it in my pack. The one truth the Taliban cannot escape is that, believe it or not, they are human beings, which means they have to eat food and drink water. That requires couriers and that's where an old bounty hunter like me comes in handy. I track the couriers, locate the tunnel entrances and storage facilities, type the info into the handheld, shoot the coordinates up to the satellite link that tells the air commanders where to drop the hardware, we bash some heads for a while, then I track and record the new movement. It's all about intelligence. We haven't even brought in the snipers yet. These scurrying rats have no idea what they're in for. We are but days away from cutting off supply lines and allowing the eradication to begin. I dream of bin Laden waking up to find me standing over him with my boot on his throat as I spit a bloody ear into his face and plunge my nickel plated Bowie knife through his frontal lobe. But you know me. I'm a romantic. I've said it before and I'll say it again: This country blows, man. It's not even a country. There are no roads, there's no infrastructure, there's no government. This is an inhospitable, rockpit (expletive) ruled by eleventh century warring tribes. There are no jobs here like we know jobs. Afghanistan offers two ways for a man to support his family: join the opium trade or join the army. That's it. Those are your options. Oh, I forgot, you can also live in a refugee camp and eat plum-sweetened, crushed beetle paste and squirt mud like a goose with stomach flu if that's your idea of a party. But the smell alone of those "tent cities of the walking dead" is enough to hurl you into the poppy fields to cheerfully scrape bulbs for eighteen hours a day. And let me tell you something else. I've been living with these Tajiks and Uzbeks and Turkmen and even a couple of Pushtins for over a month and a half now and this much I can say for sure: These guys, all of em, are Huns. Actual, living Huns. They LIVE to fight. Its what they do. Its ALL they do. They have no respect for anything, not for their families or for each other or for themselves. They claw at one another as a way of life. They play polo with dead calves and force their five-year-old sons into human cockfights to defend the family honor. Huns, roaming packs of savage, heartless beasts who feed on each other's barbarism. (Expletive) cavemen with AK 47's. Then again, maybe I'm just cranky. I'm freezing my (expletive) off on this stupid (expletive) hill because my lap warmer is running out of juice and I can't recharge it until the sun comes up in a few hours. Oh yeah! You like to write letters, right? Do me a favor, Bizarre. Write a letter to CNN and tell Judy and Bernie and that awful, sneering, pompous Aaron Brown to stop calling the Taliban "smart." They are not smart. I suggest CNN invest in a dictionary because the word they are looking for is "cunning." The Taliban are cunning, like jackals and hyenas and wolverines. They are sneaky and ruthless and, when confronted, cowardly. They are hateful, malevolent parasites who create nothing and destroy everything else. Smart. Pfft. Yeah, they're real smart. They've spent their entire lives reading only one book (and not a very good one, as books go) and consider hygiene and indoor plumbing to be products of the devil. They're still figuring out how to work a Bic lighter. Talking to a Taliban warrior about improving his quality of life is like trying to teach an ape how to hold a pen; eventually he just gets frustrated and sticks you in the eye with it. OK, enough. Snuffle will be up soon so I have to get back to my hole. Covering my tracks in the snow takes a lot of practice but I'm getting good at it. Please tell my fellow Americans to turn off their TV sets and move on with their lives. The story line you are getting from CNN is utter (expletive) and designed not to deliver truth but rather to keep you glued to the screen through the commercials. We've got this one under control. The worst thing you guys can do right now is sit around analyzing what we're doing over here because you have no idea what we're doing and, really, you don't want to know. We are your military and we are doing what you sent us here to do. You wanna help? Buy some (expletive) stocks, America.
Saucy Jack.
Message from a Recon Marine in Afghanistan
Published: November 11, 2001
Author: Saucy Jack
The following was read on the Sully and Scooter (Radio KOGO in San Diego) Show Saturday, November 17th.
Just outside of Ab Gach, in the northwest panhandle of Afghanistan between Tajikstan and Pakistan. November 11, 2001.
Bizarre,
It's (expletive) freezing here. I'm sitting on hard, cold dirt between rocks and shrubs at the base of the Hindu Kush mountains along the Dar 'yoi Pomir River watching a hole that leads to a tunnel that leads to a cave. Stake out, my friend, and no pizza delivery for thousands of miles. I also glance at the area around my ass every ten to fifteen seconds to avoid another scorpion sting. I've actually given up battling the chiggers and sand fleas, but them (expletive) scorpions give a jolt like a cattle prod. Hurts like a bastard. The antidote tastes like transmission fluid but God bless the Marine Corps for the five vials of it in my pack. The one truth the Taliban cannot escape is that, believe it or not, they are human beings, which means they have to eat food and drink water. That requires couriers and that's where an old bounty hunter like me comes in handy. I track the couriers, locate the tunnel entrances and storage facilities, type the info into the handheld, shoot the coordinates up to the satellite link that tells the air commanders where to drop the hardware, we bash some heads for a while, then I track and record the new movement. It's all about intelligence. We haven't even brought in the snipers yet. These scurrying rats have no idea what they're in for. We are but days away from cutting off supply lines and allowing the eradication to begin. I dream of bin Laden waking up to find me standing over him with my boot on his throat as I spit a bloody ear into his face and plunge my nickel plated Bowie knife through his frontal lobe. But you know me. I'm a romantic. I've said it before and I'll say it again: This country blows, man. It's not even a country. There are no roads, there's no infrastructure, there's no government. This is an inhospitable, rockpit (expletive) ruled by eleventh century warring tribes. There are no jobs here like we know jobs. Afghanistan offers two ways for a man to support his family: join the opium trade or join the army. That's it. Those are your options. Oh, I forgot, you can also live in a refugee camp and eat plum-sweetened, crushed beetle paste and squirt mud like a goose with stomach flu if that's your idea of a party. But the smell alone of those "tent cities of the walking dead" is enough to hurl you into the poppy fields to cheerfully scrape bulbs for eighteen hours a day. And let me tell you something else. I've been living with these Tajiks and Uzbeks and Turkmen and even a couple of Pushtins for over a month and a half now and this much I can say for sure: These guys, all of em, are Huns. Actual, living Huns. They LIVE to fight. Its what they do. Its ALL they do. They have no respect for anything, not for their families or for each other or for themselves. They claw at one another as a way of life. They play polo with dead calves and force their five-year-old sons into human cockfights to defend the family honor. Huns, roaming packs of savage, heartless beasts who feed on each other's barbarism. (Expletive) cavemen with AK 47's. Then again, maybe I'm just cranky. I'm freezing my (expletive) off on this stupid (expletive) hill because my lap warmer is running out of juice and I can't recharge it until the sun comes up in a few hours. Oh yeah! You like to write letters, right? Do me a favor, Bizarre. Write a letter to CNN and tell Judy and Bernie and that awful, sneering, pompous Aaron Brown to stop calling the Taliban "smart." They are not smart. I suggest CNN invest in a dictionary because the word they are looking for is "cunning." The Taliban are cunning, like jackals and hyenas and wolverines. They are sneaky and ruthless and, when confronted, cowardly. They are hateful, malevolent parasites who create nothing and destroy everything else. Smart. Pfft. Yeah, they're real smart. They've spent their entire lives reading only one book (and not a very good one, as books go) and consider hygiene and indoor plumbing to be products of the devil. They're still figuring out how to work a Bic lighter. Talking to a Taliban warrior about improving his quality of life is like trying to teach an ape how to hold a pen; eventually he just gets frustrated and sticks you in the eye with it. OK, enough. Snuffle will be up soon so I have to get back to my hole. Covering my tracks in the snow takes a lot of practice but I'm getting good at it. Please tell my fellow Americans to turn off their TV sets and move on with their lives. The story line you are getting from CNN is utter (expletive) and designed not to deliver truth but rather to keep you glued to the screen through the commercials. We've got this one under control. The worst thing you guys can do right now is sit around analyzing what we're doing over here because you have no idea what we're doing and, really, you don't want to know. We are your military and we are doing what you sent us here to do. You wanna help? Buy some (expletive) stocks, America.
Saucy Jack.
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This is the sort of rubbish your average inward looking american is going to believe.
If anything September 11th should have taught them is that they have to try and understand other cultures. You will never totally stop the age old blood shed unless you are willing to understand and have the patience to make a difference.
Lets hope the man in command has a better respect for the afghans than this marine does. If not its a long long war he is going to be fighting, and just like vietnam public opinion wont tolerate thier brave marines being sent home in body bags.
Rolling Map
[ 09 December 2001: Message edited by: Rolling Map ]
If anything September 11th should have taught them is that they have to try and understand other cultures. You will never totally stop the age old blood shed unless you are willing to understand and have the patience to make a difference.
Lets hope the man in command has a better respect for the afghans than this marine does. If not its a long long war he is going to be fighting, and just like vietnam public opinion wont tolerate thier brave marines being sent home in body bags.
Rolling Map
[ 09 December 2001: Message edited by: Rolling Map ]
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Assuming that this "letter" is for real:
1. The SAS would not be honking about being cold, wet, and pi$$ed off. Given that you are so far removed from the nearest pizza parlour war must be hell for you.
2. I am glad to see that living in a country that is demographically so diverse that you see the human value of culture. Or is it only acceptable to have a diverse cultrual make up so long as it is within America? Cavemen? or Afghans from a country beyond the hallowed shores of the US?
3. Huns? I suppose that the gang warfare on the streets of LA where people are murdered simply for wearing the wrong colour would be the living example of the American Dream? I suppose the tribal wars that have taken place in Afghanistan, although practically the same as gang-warfare in LA, is the neanderthal un-civilised barbarity of cavemen. After all, if they were American it would be ok to fight?
4. I am glad to see that you have the humanity to recognise human suffering. It must be so gratifying to think that were it not for the US needlesly carpet bombing Afghanistan there would be no refugee camps to feed these sub-human cavemen. And after all, they should be so grateful for having their houses bombed into oblivion in return to having a few TV dinners dropped out of the back of a Herc. Who needs strategic deployment of ground forces when you can save some decomissioning costs of getting rid of some old 1000lb-ers by dropping them on an already backward (i.e. non-American) country.
5. I suspect that your opinions were formed by watching CNN while eating the pizza you are so angry can't be delivered now.
I dispair of attitudes such as these as they drive politicians to decimate a country for the sake of TV publicity and votes. I was pilloried in another thread for saying that the US cannot accept that not everyone wants to be an American. I have experienced first hand the contempt for anything non-American that so many Americans hold. It is no surprise to me that matey wrote what he did. Sad really. 
[ 09 December 2001: Message edited by: kbf1 ]
1. The SAS would not be honking about being cold, wet, and pi$$ed off. Given that you are so far removed from the nearest pizza parlour war must be hell for you.
2. I am glad to see that living in a country that is demographically so diverse that you see the human value of culture. Or is it only acceptable to have a diverse cultrual make up so long as it is within America? Cavemen? or Afghans from a country beyond the hallowed shores of the US?
3. Huns? I suppose that the gang warfare on the streets of LA where people are murdered simply for wearing the wrong colour would be the living example of the American Dream? I suppose the tribal wars that have taken place in Afghanistan, although practically the same as gang-warfare in LA, is the neanderthal un-civilised barbarity of cavemen. After all, if they were American it would be ok to fight?
4. I am glad to see that you have the humanity to recognise human suffering. It must be so gratifying to think that were it not for the US needlesly carpet bombing Afghanistan there would be no refugee camps to feed these sub-human cavemen. And after all, they should be so grateful for having their houses bombed into oblivion in return to having a few TV dinners dropped out of the back of a Herc. Who needs strategic deployment of ground forces when you can save some decomissioning costs of getting rid of some old 1000lb-ers by dropping them on an already backward (i.e. non-American) country.
5. I suspect that your opinions were formed by watching CNN while eating the pizza you are so angry can't be delivered now.
I dispair of attitudes such as these as they drive politicians to decimate a country for the sake of TV publicity and votes. I was pilloried in another thread for saying that the US cannot accept that not everyone wants to be an American. I have experienced first hand the contempt for anything non-American that so many Americans hold.
It is no surprise to me that matey wrote what he did. Sad really. [ 09 December 2001: Message edited by: kbf1 ]
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Yeh, those bloody Americans and their carpet bombing, what a total waste of time !!
Oh....wait a minute, no.....it was a complete success.
KBF - what's your definition of carpet bombing ? Sorry, but you're starting to sound like one of those people from CND who know sod all about modern warfare, only that "it's bad".
Oh....wait a minute, no.....it was a complete success.
KBF - what's your definition of carpet bombing ? Sorry, but you're starting to sound like one of those people from CND who know sod all about modern warfare, only that "it's bad".
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I didn't think it was real - I got sent it by a marine for one thing. It just made me laugh when everyone else seems to be looking at the gloomy side of life. Cue for a Monty Python song.....
KBF
Your ability to overlook the same problems in Britain while criticising the US for same is remarkable, or better said hypocritical. I used to live in a suburb of LA, for the most part it is a safe place with great weather. Without doubt there are areas I wouldn't want to get caught in, Compton comes to mind. I would no more want to get caught there than in the impoverished areas of Oldham, Burnly or Leeds. I believe the Asian immigrants have even coined a term for areas of those towns, "no go white area". I could be killed for the color of my skin. I understand I might be safe in Glasgow, there the white youth gangs are the ones in charge. Takes alot of courage to stand with your gang at the entrance to the high rises in the city center (sorry, for those Euro-centric, centre) and beat up on immigrants. Remember the riots in Bradford? Your equal to the KKK even has a recognized political party, my memory fails me, I believe its called the BNP, perhaps the national front.
The gang members in LA are at least allowed to travel abroad, the low grade terrorists called British soccer hooligans are banned from many European countries for their actions, what an embarrassment to your country and the good people that make up the vast majority. You mentioned you were panned on another thread for saying that not everyone wants to be an American. I cant help but feel that some Brits dont want anyone but white immigrants to become British. I doubt you will find any consolation in that I agree with you, I have traveled extensively and have found life outside the US, the gold coast down in OZ comes to mind. In the US we have a tremendous problem, we have alot of work to do This is in no way trying to diminish the problem here, but just to show you as a hypocrite. The UK has alot of work ahead, I suggest your angst could be put to some use in your backyard prior to looking abroad to point out the same problems you have domestically. I imagine you will broadside me with race problems again here in the states, can't deny it, but I can one for one do the same to you.
I suspect you have never been in the military after some of the comments I have read of yours. I worked with all branches of the Brit military, found them to be professional and dedicated, however they complain about their surroundings, pay, food, superiors etc as well I as I ever could. A complaining soldier is a happy soldier. You can deny it but I doubt very much you ever served your country or you would know better. I am always happy to debate but your credability is gone. You post only to get a rise, I recignize you for that now.
Your ability to overlook the same problems in Britain while criticising the US for same is remarkable, or better said hypocritical. I used to live in a suburb of LA, for the most part it is a safe place with great weather. Without doubt there are areas I wouldn't want to get caught in, Compton comes to mind. I would no more want to get caught there than in the impoverished areas of Oldham, Burnly or Leeds. I believe the Asian immigrants have even coined a term for areas of those towns, "no go white area". I could be killed for the color of my skin. I understand I might be safe in Glasgow, there the white youth gangs are the ones in charge. Takes alot of courage to stand with your gang at the entrance to the high rises in the city center (sorry, for those Euro-centric, centre) and beat up on immigrants. Remember the riots in Bradford? Your equal to the KKK even has a recognized political party, my memory fails me, I believe its called the BNP, perhaps the national front.
The gang members in LA are at least allowed to travel abroad, the low grade terrorists called British soccer hooligans are banned from many European countries for their actions, what an embarrassment to your country and the good people that make up the vast majority. You mentioned you were panned on another thread for saying that not everyone wants to be an American. I cant help but feel that some Brits dont want anyone but white immigrants to become British. I doubt you will find any consolation in that I agree with you, I have traveled extensively and have found life outside the US, the gold coast down in OZ comes to mind. In the US we have a tremendous problem, we have alot of work to do This is in no way trying to diminish the problem here, but just to show you as a hypocrite. The UK has alot of work ahead, I suggest your angst could be put to some use in your backyard prior to looking abroad to point out the same problems you have domestically. I imagine you will broadside me with race problems again here in the states, can't deny it, but I can one for one do the same to you.
I suspect you have never been in the military after some of the comments I have read of yours. I worked with all branches of the Brit military, found them to be professional and dedicated, however they complain about their surroundings, pay, food, superiors etc as well I as I ever could. A complaining soldier is a happy soldier. You can deny it but I doubt very much you ever served your country or you would know better. I am always happy to debate but your credability is gone. You post only to get a rise, I recignize you for that now.
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West Coast, remember the Red Warning at the bottom of the page. KBF writes only on his own behalf, and I disassociate myself from his uninformed remarks.
I write as one who has lived amongst you for several years and worked alongside aviators from all the Services.
Please don't overestimate the gloomy news about Britain that you may get from time to time on TV and in the US press. Ours is, on the whole, a safe and happy country and we have an enormous respect for yours.
I write as one who has lived amongst you for several years and worked alongside aviators from all the Services.
Please don't overestimate the gloomy news about Britain that you may get from time to time on TV and in the US press. Ours is, on the whole, a safe and happy country and we have an enormous respect for yours.
Fobot
I certainly recognize the UK for what is good. In the Irish household of my parents I took alot of abuse for choosing to spend the bulk of my honeymoom in London and only quickly visiting Dublin. The people there have treated me favorably and I have nothing but fond memories of London and the country as a whole. I also have a great deal of respect for my counterparts in the military there. The Royal Marines are in my opinion the finest fighting force bar none, I tell that to anyone who will listen.
What I do take issue to is posters like KBF criticising the US with his holier than thou diatribes when the same problems exist in his own country.
I certainly recognize the UK for what is good. In the Irish household of my parents I took alot of abuse for choosing to spend the bulk of my honeymoom in London and only quickly visiting Dublin. The people there have treated me favorably and I have nothing but fond memories of London and the country as a whole. I also have a great deal of respect for my counterparts in the military there. The Royal Marines are in my opinion the finest fighting force bar none, I tell that to anyone who will listen.
What I do take issue to is posters like KBF criticising the US with his holier than thou diatribes when the same problems exist in his own country.
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West Coast...gotta agree with you on the Royal Marines, damn tough lot they are, and I am even happier they enjoy their work so slugs like myself can stay in the Air Force (same applies for submariners!). There are several threads going at this moment that are US. vs UK vs. the world vs. etc, etc.; and they are all getting rather boring. I have been lucky enough to work with militaries from lots of countries, from both western and eastern Europe, and needless to say there were things about them and their countries I liked and didn't like or agree with, but overall I respect them for being fellow brothers-in-arms. This is especially true with Her Majesty's forces, a great bunch, well trained and justifiably proud of what they do.
My point (I was getting to one...) is that all these personal opinions are just like a$$holes, we know everyone has one but most of us really don't want to hear it! Regardless of what the US Constitution says about free speech, it does not require me to listen to what every moron wants to say.
By the way, I got this same letter via email last week and even mailed it to a bud of mine in the RAF. I can’t tell you if it is truth or BS, doesn’t really matter as much as it’s a pretty amusing read!
Cheers!
My point (I was getting to one...) is that all these personal opinions are just like a$$holes, we know everyone has one but most of us really don't want to hear it! Regardless of what the US Constitution says about free speech, it does not require me to listen to what every moron wants to say.
By the way, I got this same letter via email last week and even mailed it to a bud of mine in the RAF. I can’t tell you if it is truth or BS, doesn’t really matter as much as it’s a pretty amusing read!
Cheers!
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Let's address a few points:
X-Q...CND? no, just witnessing mission creep and I am unhappy about it. The original terms of reference for any action in Afghanistan were purely to root out O B-L. This then went to military advice to the Northern Alliance, to figting alongside the Northern Alliance, to the stated ambition to remove the Taliban and install a pro-western government, to threatening to act against Iraq. While I agree that the Taliban and Iraq are odious regimes, the original justification and terms of reference did not include current military activities. My issue is that now the Afghan people are synonymous with the Taliban and from the early days of the bombing campaign the force outweiged any response and was not measured. The argument that the infrastructure of the Taliban was being put beyond their use has a hollow ring with me when the net result is that innocent Afghan people are being subjected to relentless waves of bombing. We as a nation are not at war with Afghanistan or it's people and this troubles me. If the policy makers had stated objectives and methods that had not shifted I would not be so uncomfortable. Therein lies my definition of carpet bombing, the use of mass, "dumb" ordinance with a view to denying major infrastructure.
WC: Lots to agree with there. *I* am not a hypocrite because it is not within my powers to make policy decisions on home issues in the UK. If it were, I would be looking to fix the problems we have here before exporting solutions overseas. Certainly we have a race issue here, much different to that in the US. We should be looking to eradicate political extremism of the sort espoused by the BNP, who I find personally odious, as I do not see that they are any different to O B-L in many ways in hat they seek to destroy what they do not understand. Again, football hooligans do us much shame in their antics abroad and actions should be taken to ensure that they do not export their brand of thuggery abroad. As for my background, I am a serving officer in the Royal Logistics Corps as people here well know. Your view on my credibility is a matter for you. I do however have a number of views on the matter of US foreign policy, and the lack thereof, opinions I have every right to hold. The fact that you disagree with me on the issue of US foreign policy and the handling of events post Sept 11th does not deny me the right to be critical. If the US as a body politik could address the insular nature of its thinking I believe it would go a long way towards identifying an purposeful outlet for what to do with its post cold war military. I believe that it has become a victim of its own muscle flexing in the past 10 years as Britain became a victim of its own colonialism after the end of WW2. Although I may post some comments here that are blunt, they do at least spark a debate that I think needs to be had, namely the way the US and her allies use their military assets. It seems that without a standing army in Eastern Europe to counter the US has taken to using force to readily and overtly than it would have ever got away with 15 years ago. If we are not careful we may go down the same route.
Fobotsco: You are quite right, I write on my own behalf and I do not expect anyone here to either agree or support some of my views. You are quite welcome to if you wish, but I believe we yet to find common ground on any single issue, which is quite OK in my view.
So, the issue with respect to this letter is in the interpritation. Many of you seem to believe it is a tongue-in-cheek for of satire. That wasn't the way i read it, but if it was perhaps it was well aimed as the purpose of satire is to exaggerate the truth, therefore was I really so wide of the mark? If I had been so far wide of the mark would so many US contributors been so upset? Only you can answer that. WC, for what it is worth, your comments have given me cause to think about the nature of the problems here in the UK, as well they should. I have to say though, you have been quite quick to slam the UK in other threads and I am surprised you don't see fit to consider that some people in the UK or elsewhere may take issue with US foreign policy and the perceptions of the rest of the world that we have seen US citizens and servicedmen hold towards us. I have heard a US Marines Capt claim that the UK played no dicsernable part in the Gulf War, and he believed what he was saying. While I accept the fact that every country has it's fair share of idiots (the UK being no exception) and that as a country with 10 times the population of the UK you are more likely to have 10 times the number of idiots, what worries me is when the views of seemingly intelligent people leave me aghast either in their nievety or their scorn.
X-Q...CND? no, just witnessing mission creep and I am unhappy about it. The original terms of reference for any action in Afghanistan were purely to root out O B-L. This then went to military advice to the Northern Alliance, to figting alongside the Northern Alliance, to the stated ambition to remove the Taliban and install a pro-western government, to threatening to act against Iraq. While I agree that the Taliban and Iraq are odious regimes, the original justification and terms of reference did not include current military activities. My issue is that now the Afghan people are synonymous with the Taliban and from the early days of the bombing campaign the force outweiged any response and was not measured. The argument that the infrastructure of the Taliban was being put beyond their use has a hollow ring with me when the net result is that innocent Afghan people are being subjected to relentless waves of bombing. We as a nation are not at war with Afghanistan or it's people and this troubles me. If the policy makers had stated objectives and methods that had not shifted I would not be so uncomfortable. Therein lies my definition of carpet bombing, the use of mass, "dumb" ordinance with a view to denying major infrastructure.
WC: Lots to agree with there. *I* am not a hypocrite because it is not within my powers to make policy decisions on home issues in the UK. If it were, I would be looking to fix the problems we have here before exporting solutions overseas. Certainly we have a race issue here, much different to that in the US. We should be looking to eradicate political extremism of the sort espoused by the BNP, who I find personally odious, as I do not see that they are any different to O B-L in many ways in hat they seek to destroy what they do not understand. Again, football hooligans do us much shame in their antics abroad and actions should be taken to ensure that they do not export their brand of thuggery abroad. As for my background, I am a serving officer in the Royal Logistics Corps as people here well know. Your view on my credibility is a matter for you. I do however have a number of views on the matter of US foreign policy, and the lack thereof, opinions I have every right to hold. The fact that you disagree with me on the issue of US foreign policy and the handling of events post Sept 11th does not deny me the right to be critical. If the US as a body politik could address the insular nature of its thinking I believe it would go a long way towards identifying an purposeful outlet for what to do with its post cold war military. I believe that it has become a victim of its own muscle flexing in the past 10 years as Britain became a victim of its own colonialism after the end of WW2. Although I may post some comments here that are blunt, they do at least spark a debate that I think needs to be had, namely the way the US and her allies use their military assets. It seems that without a standing army in Eastern Europe to counter the US has taken to using force to readily and overtly than it would have ever got away with 15 years ago. If we are not careful we may go down the same route.
Fobotsco: You are quite right, I write on my own behalf and I do not expect anyone here to either agree or support some of my views. You are quite welcome to if you wish, but I believe we yet to find common ground on any single issue, which is quite OK in my view.
So, the issue with respect to this letter is in the interpritation. Many of you seem to believe it is a tongue-in-cheek for of satire. That wasn't the way i read it, but if it was perhaps it was well aimed as the purpose of satire is to exaggerate the truth, therefore was I really so wide of the mark? If I had been so far wide of the mark would so many US contributors been so upset? Only you can answer that. WC, for what it is worth, your comments have given me cause to think about the nature of the problems here in the UK, as well they should. I have to say though, you have been quite quick to slam the UK in other threads and I am surprised you don't see fit to consider that some people in the UK or elsewhere may take issue with US foreign policy and the perceptions of the rest of the world that we have seen US citizens and servicedmen hold towards us. I have heard a US Marines Capt claim that the UK played no dicsernable part in the Gulf War, and he believed what he was saying. While I accept the fact that every country has it's fair share of idiots (the UK being no exception) and that as a country with 10 times the population of the UK you are more likely to have 10 times the number of idiots, what worries me is when the views of seemingly intelligent people leave me aghast either in their nievety or their scorn.
KBF
Re-read your initial post and try to tell me its not inflamatory. Your right to an opinion and to express it is without question. Your right to be taken seriously however is based on the credability of your arguement, not on your right to hit the post button. Each of your points looked to raise dander and nothing else. You preached about the gangs in LA killing each other, what does that have to do with US foreign policy you keep harping on, how is it differant to the white supremists killing immigrants in Glasgow? Again if you want to discuss it, do so in an adult manner. When however you preach from your pulpit as if it doesn't exist in the UK, firstly pisses me off(until I figured out that was your cause for posting)and it makes you look like a hypocrite. How is it your providence to criticise us when in your backyard the same is happening? If you want to dicuss gangs in LA for some off the wall reason, have at it but dont pretend your not experiencing the same. This but one point but it is endemic of your post and other posts in the past. Indeed your own countrymen try to distance themselves from you. I give props when due, you last post was written in a rational manner but does little to unconvince me that your not trolling for a fight.
Re-read your initial post and try to tell me its not inflamatory. Your right to an opinion and to express it is without question. Your right to be taken seriously however is based on the credability of your arguement, not on your right to hit the post button. Each of your points looked to raise dander and nothing else. You preached about the gangs in LA killing each other, what does that have to do with US foreign policy you keep harping on, how is it differant to the white supremists killing immigrants in Glasgow? Again if you want to discuss it, do so in an adult manner. When however you preach from your pulpit as if it doesn't exist in the UK, firstly pisses me off(until I figured out that was your cause for posting)and it makes you look like a hypocrite. How is it your providence to criticise us when in your backyard the same is happening? If you want to dicuss gangs in LA for some off the wall reason, have at it but dont pretend your not experiencing the same. This but one point but it is endemic of your post and other posts in the past. Indeed your own countrymen try to distance themselves from you. I give props when due, you last post was written in a rational manner but does little to unconvince me that your not trolling for a fight.
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KBF1,
You claim to be an Officer in the British Army; I am amazed as to how uniformed you are. Before you comment on US foreign policy you should at least try and understand it!
The original terms of reference of the campaign were never "to purely root out OBL". Every American spokesperson from President Bush downwards has been at pains from Day One to state that this is not limited to one man. Equally, you shall recall the mantra about those who harbour terrorists are the same as the terrorists themselves. That is why the Taliban went on the shopping list, not mission creep, just clearly stated Foreign Policy. Further, how on earth can we get at the terrorists which is not, and never was, limited to OBL, but includes Al Queera and anybody else that slithers out from under the rocks, if the Taliban harbour them? How would you have dealt with the Taliban- by fax?
I certainly take exception to your stance regarding "Carpet Bombing". I am unaware, and I note you furnish no examples, where the US has bombed with dumb, or smart ordinance, in a manner that blatantly disregarded the safety of non-combatants. In the circumstances the US has been amazingly restrained, given that they have some 4000 reasons to be unstrained
Whilst you have the right to express your opinions, you also have the duty as an Officer in HM Forces to be informed on current affairs; I suggest you get informed and fast because US foreign policy and HM Govts policies are amazingly similar!
[ 10 December 2001: Message edited by: Liam Gallagher ]
You claim to be an Officer in the British Army; I am amazed as to how uniformed you are. Before you comment on US foreign policy you should at least try and understand it!
The original terms of reference of the campaign were never "to purely root out OBL". Every American spokesperson from President Bush downwards has been at pains from Day One to state that this is not limited to one man. Equally, you shall recall the mantra about those who harbour terrorists are the same as the terrorists themselves. That is why the Taliban went on the shopping list, not mission creep, just clearly stated Foreign Policy. Further, how on earth can we get at the terrorists which is not, and never was, limited to OBL, but includes Al Queera and anybody else that slithers out from under the rocks, if the Taliban harbour them? How would you have dealt with the Taliban- by fax?
I certainly take exception to your stance regarding "Carpet Bombing". I am unaware, and I note you furnish no examples, where the US has bombed with dumb, or smart ordinance, in a manner that blatantly disregarded the safety of non-combatants. In the circumstances the US has been amazingly restrained, given that they have some 4000 reasons to be unstrained
Whilst you have the right to express your opinions, you also have the duty as an Officer in HM Forces to be informed on current affairs; I suggest you get informed and fast because US foreign policy and HM Govts policies are amazingly similar!
[ 10 December 2001: Message edited by: Liam Gallagher ]
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WC: After re-reading my posts last night and sleeping on the issue and waking in a better frame of mind today, I concede that the tone of the post was both petulant and un-necessary. If the tone of the post caused offence, which was not my intention, then I offer an unreserved apology.
There are a number of issues, which while not well made, are valid, and I will come back to them at a point in the future because I don't think it appropriate to do so now, because if an apology is due I don't want the argument to detract from that.
There are a number of issues, which while not well made, are valid, and I will come back to them at a point in the future because I don't think it appropriate to do so now, because if an apology is due I don't want the argument to detract from that.
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Some people are really starting to irritate me on this thread.
KBF you haven't said anything wrong mate, you are intitled to your opinion.
Fobotsco, that was one of the most obsequious replies I have seen. Nobody was associating you with KBF. You write and say "I disassociate myself from his comments", do you think we are all sat after reading KBF's post thinking "MMM I bet Fobotsco thinks like that too".
West Coast I have worked on mil ops with the USA for years. By the sounds of it you are better of staying on the West Coast, for you understand UK policy as much as you claim that KBF understands yours. What are you talking about "the White supremists in Glasgow killing off minorities". I think one person has been killed and one injured (I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong), the gangs in LA murder 5 on a good day and 12 on a bad day. When you talk of the gangs, it seems that you are proud that at "least they are allowed to travel abroad whilst we ban football hooligans from doing the same", your statement amazes me, what on earth do you mean? You also make a fairly sweeping statement that all KBF's countrymen distance themselves from him (are you convinced of this by Fobotsco? I think from your last post that it is you that is actually writing to get a reaction.
Liam G stick to singing songs. Before you start quoting an officers duty, and stating how close US and UK defence policy is, think about what you say. Our policy is very similar, when the US want it to be. Now after the US has suffered the dreadful tradgedy of Sept 11 and terrorism has been well and tuely brought to it's doorstep, it decides to go on a war against global terrorism, and quite rightly we back them, the sooner it is cleansed the better. But I do not recall the US wanting to send Delta force into Northern Ireland during the atrocities there. Did you know that Several thousand people have been killed there Liam and West Coast?, London has been bombed many times and it has all been fed by money (around $30 million a year) from the US. Now that the US chooses, it is all wrong and bank accounts of terrorist organisations have been frozen, it's just a pity we did not have a "similar" policy years ago. What would you do Liam? carpet bomb Belfast or Crossmaglen? I don't think so.
West Coast, I support the US and the current fight against terrorism, but don't you start hitting us with this "White Supremist S***" it has got nothing to do with the post by KBF. I wonder if Fobotsco would now like to disassociate himself with your last post aswell?
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Tigs ]
KBF you haven't said anything wrong mate, you are intitled to your opinion.
Fobotsco, that was one of the most obsequious replies I have seen. Nobody was associating you with KBF. You write and say "I disassociate myself from his comments", do you think we are all sat after reading KBF's post thinking "MMM I bet Fobotsco thinks like that too".
West Coast I have worked on mil ops with the USA for years. By the sounds of it you are better of staying on the West Coast, for you understand UK policy as much as you claim that KBF understands yours. What are you talking about "the White supremists in Glasgow killing off minorities". I think one person has been killed and one injured (I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong), the gangs in LA murder 5 on a good day and 12 on a bad day. When you talk of the gangs, it seems that you are proud that at "least they are allowed to travel abroad whilst we ban football hooligans from doing the same", your statement amazes me, what on earth do you mean? You also make a fairly sweeping statement that all KBF's countrymen distance themselves from him (are you convinced of this by Fobotsco? I think from your last post that it is you that is actually writing to get a reaction.
Liam G stick to singing songs. Before you start quoting an officers duty, and stating how close US and UK defence policy is, think about what you say. Our policy is very similar, when the US want it to be. Now after the US has suffered the dreadful tradgedy of Sept 11 and terrorism has been well and tuely brought to it's doorstep, it decides to go on a war against global terrorism, and quite rightly we back them, the sooner it is cleansed the better. But I do not recall the US wanting to send Delta force into Northern Ireland during the atrocities there. Did you know that Several thousand people have been killed there Liam and West Coast?, London has been bombed many times and it has all been fed by money (around $30 million a year) from the US. Now that the US chooses, it is all wrong and bank accounts of terrorist organisations have been frozen, it's just a pity we did not have a "similar" policy years ago. What would you do Liam? carpet bomb Belfast or Crossmaglen? I don't think so.
West Coast, I support the US and the current fight against terrorism, but don't you start hitting us with this "White Supremist S***" it has got nothing to do with the post by KBF. I wonder if Fobotsco would now like to disassociate himself with your last post aswell?
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Tigs ]
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Tigs,
Deep breaths and calm down.
My post to KBF1 referred only to events in Afghanistan and you will get no argument from me on the points you raised about NI.
Indeed, KBF1's reply of 20:02 of the 10th was very gracious and a fine example of how we should aim to conduct ourselves in these trying times. Good on him I say!
LG
Deep breaths and calm down.
My post to KBF1 referred only to events in Afghanistan and you will get no argument from me on the points you raised about NI.
Indeed, KBF1's reply of 20:02 of the 10th was very gracious and a fine example of how we should aim to conduct ourselves in these trying times. Good on him I say!
LG